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Well, the best case scenario is they pull a 30k, which means loads of new models, but support for all the others in big swaaths. Because if the new models are good even the most overswamped vet is going to grab some new shiny things.

That would make me a very happy camper.
As has 30k done.

If we assume Empire civil war, what does that make the game?

Launch Box of Empire vs Empire (maybe with a land ship or steam tank center piece?)
Cathay
Kislev
Chaos?
Army books for old factions

Does that seem realistic?

While the time period includes the Empire civil war, I don't think it's big or epic enough to warrant its own game in the same way that the Horus Heresy did. That would only really appeal to Empire players and leave the majority of factions either left out, or effectively NPCs.
The Great War against Chaos feels like a much more natural event to build up to and includes gems like the rise of Asavar Kul and the Battle of Finuval Plains as additional content.
Having a boxed set of 40 Space Marines beating each other up with Dreadnoughts and Spartans is visually very cool; 60 State Troops in pyjamas with some Knights and Cannons is less so and very mistakeable for a generic historical wargame. The Empire roster might well be divided into subfactions based on their loyalty, but I think the core needs to be bigger than Empire vs Empire.

The Great War against Chaos would need to allow for Empire, Kislev, High Elves, Warriors, Daemons, Beastmen, Dark Elves and Dwarfs as core factions (9, spread over 2-3 books). Norsca is also a very easy addition, as is Cathay with some expanded lore of the eastern theatre.

You could have it in 3-4 books like the Horus Heresy Isstvan campaign:
- The Time of 3 Emperors and Asavar Kul crosses the Lynsk (Empire, Warriors and Kislev)
- The invasion of Ulthuan (High Elves, Dark Elves and Daemons)
- The Dwarfs relief of Praag (Dwarfs, Greenskins and Beastmen)
Plus extra content for what Cathay was up to (involving Kurgan and Ogres), the adventures of Louen Orc-Slayer and Mousillon's undead, and the actions of the Lizardmen and Skaven to influence the war from afar.

Not Online!!! wrote:

antia wrote:
They specifically said that it'll be a rank-and-flank game with square bases. They also said that Kislev will be a full faction, with bear cavalry and other weirdness as seen in Total War Warhammer 3.
They implied (through a map of the Empire with icons dotted across it) that the Empire will be broken up into multiple factions.

It seems weird to me that people here think they won't do any of that. They haven't said much about it, and you reckon that they'll go back on what little they have definitively announced?

Where am i going back on? I just expect them to be Interessed in return from investment and i therefore doubt that old armies will be portable 1:1.

Since when did you have to invalidate old models to sell new ones? Regular Space marines are still valid, no? Your rogue trader space marines can sill be put on a base and played alongside of updated kits, so why should it be different than fantasy?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
If we assume Empire civil war, what does that make the game?

Launch Box of Empire vs Empire (maybe with a land ship or steam tank center piece?)
Cathay
Kislev
Chaos?
Army books for old factions

Does that seem realistic?

Thats about what I am thinking. Human focused box with a Ravenous Hordes type book. I expect a lot kits that can be used for multiple factions with upgrade kits - humans could share a lot of the same boxes. Build a basic knight kit and with a few upgrade sprues you have several knightly orders for Empire, and the lions share of Bretonnia done. Similar things can be done for a lot of human infantry and basically every flavor of elf. Cost effective on their end, and as an end user I was happy how it worked in 30k, so I imagine it can work here.

I just hope the models won't be 7 foot tall weightlifters.

If they make models that look nice against most of their (normal/original) range, I'll pick some up.

If they don't, I won't be even slightly tempted to take a look.

Another teaser article on the warhammer community site.
I'm not quite sure what to make of it. The artwork is very clearly based on old models, but I don't think that means anything other than 'we're advertising this based on nostalgia'.

Also, *not* related to the news, I took a closer look at the map and realised that there's a very clear difference in how filled in areas are (and it's exactly the same on the last map they put out). Based on that, there will be nothing for Estalia and Tilea (but they have got stuff for the Border Princes, bizarrely), and it will eventually feature Norsca and the Chaos Dwarves. Norsca seems a pretty safe bet, given that Kislev is getting promoted.
N.B. this is based on very thin evidence, and I'd love to hear a different extrapolation from the same map.

What I think is realistic to expect:

Index/Ravening Hordes with not much adjusted list of units from 8th (so some armies get their large centerpiece models, others don't)

an Empire Civil War core box, with models that are generic and can be used for 2 players/factions or combined into one

Resin Upgrades to turn the generic core box plastic into the different Empire factions, maybe even expanding them into Border Princess
a campaign books featuring the specific wars, like a Empire Civil War book introducing new units/forces

over time new 2-player sets going along with new campaign books, like Norsca-Kislev, Bretonia-Orcs

So we're hearing confirmation that there are new models inbound AND of old models back in production.

Going back to the issue of shelf space and the possibility of cannibalizing AoS or Middle Earth maybe they will go with limited edition armies.

So Brettonians are back, but only in an army box and only for a limited time (one weekend or maybe a few weeks). They could then reissue each of the 16 legacy factions (less since armies like Daemons are still around just with a new coat of paint), in a year or two and keep whatever new models are coming in production for longer.

I think it'll be like Horus Heresy where(for the most part) new stuff gets shelf space and reissues beyond few elite things are Direct Only.

I do find it quite interesting that the map is spread out with faction heraldry. It seems clear they're using this layout similar to the TWW map.

I'm actually quite interested in them giving some time over to the Border Princes, used to run a lot of narrative campaigns there back in the day.

Out of interest, where have we heard that old models are back in production?

I think we are just assuming based off of the artwork. I don't think we have any official word.

 Olthannon wrote:

Out of interest, where have we heard that old models are back in production?

Someone quoted a post on the Old World Facebook group to the effect that old Brett and Tomb King kits had been put back in production for painting.

For what it's worth.

yeah, that rumor comes from hastings, which is a name that some old-timers might recall as having a mixed run of rumor accuracy.

Mixed run is rather ingenuine, he had a pretty reliable accuracy record.

 Just Tony wrote:
Mixed run is rather ingenuine, he had a pretty reliable accuracy record.

Indeed. There was a time where if Hastings chimed in on a rumor, everyone paid attention.

Depends then. It's not that great a rumour really. It's at best a suitable hedge.

Some of the recent TK and Bret models are probably fine, presumably some will get renewed. The TK guard was a fairly new kit before the end I believe.

Brets could do with some new characters and the peasant models. I would guess units like Grail Knights could do with a new kit too.


It would be nice if this also heralded a return of box art, but I doubt that.

well, not having up to date core models (as in models for core units that were required) in addition to newly designed elite units was one of the reasons both armies did not sold well (specially TK as they got a new army book in 8th but were still stuck with old skeletons and an upgrade sprue)

so just producing the old models will not do them a favour and while the hype is real, it might not transfer into sales if you need to buy models that were already outdated back than as core of a new army

 Olthannon wrote:
Depends then. It's not that great a rumour really. It's at best..
a suitable hedge.

I'm not sure quite why, but I love this as an expression. So many questionable things I hear (and perhaps some I say...) could be called "A suitable hedge".

Could you also call it "an acceptable shrubbery" or would that itself be "a suitable hedge" regarding the quality of the thicket?
I digress...

 Eilif wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:
Depends then. It's not that great a rumour really. It's at best..
a suitable hedge.

I'm not sure quite why, but I love this as an expression. So many questionable things I hear (and perhaps some I say...) could be called "A suitable hedge".

Could you also call it "an acceptable shrubbery" or would that itself be "a suitable hedge" regarding the quality of the thicket?
I digress...

Interestingly, "hedging your bets" has nothing to do with plants.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:
Depends then. It's not that great a rumour really. It's at best..
a suitable hedge.

I'm not sure quite why, but I love this as an expression. So many questionable things I hear (and perhaps some I say...) could be called "A suitable hedge".

Could you also call it "an acceptable shrubbery" or would that itself be "a suitable hedge" regarding the quality of the thicket?
I digress...

Interestingly, "hedging your bets" has nothing to do with plants.

Yes but that's the joke.

 kodos wrote:
well, not having up to date core models (as in models for core units that were required) in addition to newly designed elite units was one of the reasons both armies did not sold well (specially TK as they got a new army book in 8th but were still stuck with old skeletons and an upgrade sprue)

so just producing the old models will not do them a favour and while the hype is real, it might not transfer into sales if you need to buy models that were already outdated back than as core of a new army

definetly more of a problem with TK - whos skeleton models sucked. But the Bret Men-at-Arms kit was great and still holds up very well.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:
Depends then. It's not that great a rumour really. It's at best..
a suitable hedge.

I'm not sure quite why, but I love this as an expression. So many questionable things I hear (and perhaps some I say...) could be called "A suitable hedge".

Could you also call it "an acceptable shrubbery" or would that itself be "a suitable hedge" regarding the quality of the thicket?
I digress...

Interestingly, "hedging your bets" has nothing to do with plants.

I know I shouldn't bite. I should let the joke stand as is. No one likes a defensive semantic explainer. Errrrrr, but I just can't help myself....

It does relate to plants. At least in as much as the origins of the term "to hedge" derives meaning from the metaphor of the protective properties of a thick thorny row of bushes or trees.

Regadless, surely we can all agree though that post-Python, the word "Shrubbery" is far funnier than "Hedge".

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
Mixed run is rather ingenuine, he had a pretty reliable accuracy record.

Indeed. There was a time where if Hastings chimed in on a rumor, everyone paid attention.

like 10 years ago hastings was telling us that there were plastic primarchs coming (probably not the ones we ended up getting given the stark differences in sculpting style between those models and what was en vogue at the time he shared that), a plastic thunderhawk (doubt he meant the Aeronautica one), and new bretonnian sculpts for a 9th edition WHFB core box (snort, chortle). He had a lot of hits, but he had his fair share of misses, especially with regards to certain really big things (like, yknow, the fact that WHFB never got a 9th edition).

 Eilif wrote:

It does relate to plants. At least in as much as the origins of the term "to hedge" derives meaning from the metaphor of the protective properties of a thick thorny row of bushes or trees.

It comes from a 1600's meaning of hedge meaning "avoid commitment".

Me: refusing to hedge the bit.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

It does relate to plants. At least in as much as the origins of the term "to hedge" derives meaning from the metaphor of the protective properties of a thick thorny row of bushes or trees.

It comes from a 1600's meaning of hedge meaning "avoid commitment".

Me: refusing to hedge the bit.

Today I learned! Thanks!

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

It does relate to plants. At least in as much as the origins of the term "to hedge" derives meaning from the metaphor of the protective properties of a thick thorny row of bushes or trees.

It comes from a 1600's meaning of hedge meaning "avoid commitment".

Me: refusing to hedge the bit.

Just went down the etymological rabbit hole on this one and it appears we may both be partially right and partly wrong.
Looks like the original West Germanic (then old english) term goes back to before the 14th century and refers to any fence, living or artificial. Then it acquires the metaphorical use of any protective separation.

Words are cool.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
Mixed run is rather ingenuine, he had a pretty reliable accuracy record.

Indeed. There was a time where if Hastings chimed in on a rumor, everyone paid attention.

One of the more solid sources for some time:

75hastings69 - Total rumors: (128 TRUE) / (29 FALSE) / (3 PARTIALLY TRUE/VAGUE) - Updated 9/5/2017

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:

Out of interest, where have we heard that old models are back in production?

Someone quoted a post on the Old World Facebook group to the effect that old Brett and Tomb King kits had been put back in production for painting.

For what it's worth.

If old brettonian and Tomb King models are going to be for sale then I need another mortage....

How I love to have multiple Tomb Guard and Khemrian Warsphinx kits in my hands, not to mention the the Perry brothers Bretonnian knights and even those pesky peseasnts.

Oh boy, GW is going sqeeze another big chunk of money out of me, if they do this.

Some notes on the above.

1. Warhammer was not a failing product. Games Workshop was a failing company; on a life support of IP licensing free money. This was due to cretins at the top, never forget this. If handled competently WHFB will be profitable, not a profitable as 40K, but good enough.

2. Nostalgia is the market here, expect continuity. We have already had multiple rumours supporting this.

3. At GW Nottingham the thinking amongst the studio was, WHFB is the game we actually play, and 40K is where we make our living. Many in GW were deeply upset when Warhammer was binned, these people are still influential and post top management cretins (good riddance) may get their way.

 Orlanth wrote:
Some notes on the above.

1. Warhammer was not a failing product. Games Workshop was a failing company; on a life support of IP licensing free money. This was due to cretins at the top, never forget this. If handled competently WHFB will be profitable, not a profitable as 40K, but good enough.

Games Workshop was never a "failing" company and never hit life support. Even at its worst point it was still posting tens of millions of GBP of profit and free cash annually. I'll have to dive through my post history to find it, but I once did an indirect analysis of the financial impact on GWs bottom line between pre WHFB and post WHFB to try to gauge the profitability of the game - surprise, there was no significant or noticeable impact.