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I want a rat army and yet Skaven are reasonably hard to source economically.
I have two Getting Started Clan Pestilens as army core. This will yield a Screaming Bell, Plague Furnace and two artillery, probably both warp lightning cannon. This will also mean up to 60 Plague Monks as I also snagged a Skaven Battalion a while back. I also have contents of one Isle of Blood.

I will need to add to this a lot more basic rats. But here is the thing, it will be expensive to buy and time consuming to paint. So I am looking instead at four boxes of Stormvermin for two units of 40 and enough basic rats to make three units of 40 and no slaves.

I know the rat ratio. One rat per 10pts and one slave per 20pts. However I simply cannot afford that and want to know if any rodent players here would consider a Stormvermin heavy army viable. It would certainly be smaller and even outnumberable by other horde lists like goblins and infantry Brets, but should still have enough rats and enough guns to work. Will it?

Honestly, if you're looking to do a smaller, more elite army, do a Skrolk Pestilens list. At the same points cost(in the 7th/8th book), Plague Monks(Skrolk as General makes them Core and you already have 60) are more cost effective than Stormvermin and dual Furnaces are easier to fit in than the more "conventional" Two Towers list.

If you're set on Stormvermin, look into Queek and make a unit into his "Super Stormvermin".

Thank you for your input. However I don't want a narrow themed list, variety is important to me.

nevertheless I have enough plague cult rats to do a pestilens list with the rats I have got.

I should be more clear. I am not building for a 2k army but a collection I can make many different smaller armies out of.

My main concern is that is the massed clanrats/slaves the only viable build. It is a lot of models.

I will try and get a Skrolk.

Not heard of two towers skaven before. I am not expecting to use more than one 'tower' in an army. Screaming Bell is a must have though because I like the model.

I should have mentioned that I have a Doomwheel and plan to buy either one or two A-Bombs.

To me you are in a similar situation as a full plate chaos warrior list, with the difference of stormvermin not being your main DD but frontline compared to chaos warriors which are both.

Both armies suffer from attrition and field presence. That said it also highly depends upon which edition or ruleset you intend to play, which may be more indicative if it works.

TBH, the only thing that does not work ever will most likely be an all Skeleton vampire counts army.

I play 8th and early 9th Age, which is essentially 8th.
I can play 6th also with an increasing number of 6th army books.

Can't and won't speak on options for 8th. You know my view and others can give you better advice in that respect.

As far as 6th? Elite armies are a mixed bag, it's the chaff that gives them some survivability. Stormvermin are adequate at best at taking a charge, so your goal is to have some tarpits to take the charges for you. Then the Stormvermin, being strategically placed side by side with those tarpits but back a couple inches, charge in on your next turn and enjoy the flanky goodness.

I'm a fan of rat swarms, personally. Vastly more expensive than slaves, of course, but Skaven benefit even more than most armies by having an unbreakable unit to soak charges or pin down terror-causing enemies. And that way you don't need to paint dozens of slaves to get chewed up fulfilling the same role.

antia wrote:
I'm a fan of rat swarms, personally. Vastly more expensive than slaves, of course, but Skaven benefit even more than most armies by having an unbreakable unit to soak charges or pin down terror-causing enemies. And that way you don't need to paint dozens of slaves to get chewed up fulfilling the same role.

I will take a look at that.

Looking at the 7th book, I can get rat swarms at 25pts which is 5pts per wound, though at T2.
I think that is not an unfair trade for Unbreakable.

Tell me how do rat swarms fare in mixed combat. If I absorb the enemy attack with rat swarms and then flank with Stormvermin, does the mass casualties of rats I will get count against the Stormvermin? I think it does and that will make this defence very edgy.

Or do I just ignore opponents tagged with rats entirely?




Giant rats cost 3pts, one more than a slave, need to be stiffened with packmasters, but are faster and hit harder, and I can boost to Ld9 via a master moulder.
What is the deal with them? I never saw giant rats much and never looked into why.

Usually run as "rat darts" 6 rats and a packmaster. Used for early deployment drops to learn where the enemy is concentrating their power, redirection. Can slip through and threaten warmachine crew etc.

Lots of utility at less than 30 points. Just have to be careful what you place them near as they can spread panic.

 Orlanth wrote:


Tell me how do rat swarms fare in mixed combat. If I absorb the enemy attack with rat swarms and then flank with Stormvermin, does the mass casualties of rats I will get count against the Stormvermin? I think it does and that will make this defence very edgy.

Or do I just ignore opponents tagged with rats entirely?

Rat Swarms will indeed bleed CombatRes if they're in the same combat. It's part of why people use the Rat Darts: they can choose Flee unlike the Swarms.

So swarms will need a fair number of bases to chew through and left on their own.

Or MSU swarms?

I like the idea of rat darts.

 Orlanth wrote:

antia wrote:
I'm a fan of rat swarms, personally. Vastly more expensive than slaves, of course, but Skaven benefit even more than most armies by having an unbreakable unit to soak charges or pin down terror-causing enemies. And that way you don't need to paint dozens of slaves to get chewed up fulfilling the same role.

I will take a look at that.

Looking at the 7th book, I can get rat swarms at 25pts which is 5pts per wound, though at T2.
I think that is not an unfair trade for Unbreakable.

Tell me how do rat swarms fare in mixed combat. If I absorb the enemy attack with rat swarms and then flank with Stormvermin, does the mass casualties of rats I will get count against the Stormvermin? I think it does and that will make this defence very edgy.

Or do I just ignore opponents tagged with rats entirely?




Giant rats cost 3pts, one more than a slave, need to be stiffened with packmasters, but are faster and hit harder, and I can boost to Ld9 via a master moulder.
What is the deal with them? I never saw giant rats much and never looked into why.

What matters at this point is that at MOST they will do whatever the # of attacks from the unit engaged by the Swarms can do. That's rolling PERFECTLY. More than likely you'll have 3 wounds. Now the flanking Stormvermin will do about the same while negating the ranks of the enemy unit and gaining a flank bonus, meaning you're up by 5 CR simply from the flank. All wounds from there are a wash unless the enemy unit has root 4 attacks or something ridiculous like that.


Also the value in Swarms comes from Unbreakable. They don't need to win combat, they simply don't run. That's HUGE in a Skaven force. The only time it isn't is when you play an edition where Swarms take Res damage like Undead.

Even with the swarms taking damage like undead they're worthwhile in a Skaven army. I usually use them either to secure my flanks or pin down a monster.
I also have had success with plague rat swarms, because then they can actually kill the nasty unit they're pinning down, over a few turns.

I saw nothing about swarms getting 'crumble'. Or am I misreading you.


What I learned so far.

- Get rat swarms for unbreakable, make them big enough to absorb several rounds of combat for best effect.

- Do not hit the swarms targets in the flank unless I am sure I can pull off a win outright as I will get poor combat res from the T2 rat casualties

- Giant rat should be deployed in minimum sized units, kept away from other models due to panic. They are primary misdirectors.

- Stormvermin can work as army core, but plague monks are generally a better choice.


This correct?

 Orlanth wrote:
I saw nothing about swarms getting 'crumble'. Or am I misreading you.

7th Ed. introduced Swarms crumbling like Undead. I played just enough 8th to know I didn't want to play it, never got around to the Swarm rules in there.

 Orlanth wrote:
What I learned so far.

- Get rat swarms for unbreakable, make them big enough to absorb several rounds of combat for best effect.

Yep. Tar pits are best at large wound values. 25 Unbreakable wounds is a LOT to try to go through.

 Orlanth wrote:
- Do not hit the swarms targets in the flank unless I am sure I can pull off a win outright as I will get poor combat res from the T2 rat casualties

Rat Swarms are also Skirmishers, which mean they can't cancel ranks. At least that's how it was in 6th and 7th. The purpose of the Swarms is to draw a charge because they aren't going anywhere, and they you flank with Stormvermin or Plague Monks.

 Orlanth wrote:
- Giant rat should be deployed in minimum sized units, kept away from other models due to panic. They are primary misdirectors.

Or probes. Or Scout-Be-Gone, or War Machine hunters if you can get them in the back field.

 Orlanth wrote:
- Stormvermin can work as army core, but plague monks are generally a better choice.


This correct?

The only problem with Stormvermin is that they aren't really better anvils than Clanrats. Their armor means they won't take a charge worth a damn while at least Plague Monks have Frenzy to keep things in place. Stormvermin are best as staggered back counterchargers.