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All things considered, enjoying the toil is the least grimdark thing I could think of for a clone race in 40k. Imagine if working gave you fulfillment. Humans won't even have that once work is no longer needed. But to enjoy working in and of itself? While not something I'd sign up for, it's not as bad as the best worlds in the Imperium. It's almost like Orks, who enjoy the fight.

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
All things considered, enjoying the toil is the least grimdark thing I could think of for a clone race in 40k. Imagine if working gave you fulfillment. Humans won't even have that once work is no longer needed. But to enjoy working in and of itself? While not something I'd sign up for, it's not as bad as the best worlds in the Imperium. It's almost like Orks, who enjoy the fight.

I wonder if it's not toil or work... but greed or wealth. Work towards gain might serve their original or intended purpose (similar to Orks and fighting). Plus it could be related to something I was wondering about before... what is the trade-off to being less noticeable to the warp? They seem to be highly intelligent and technologically adept, and highly content to work or seek gain... but maybe they have less understanding/appreciation/desire for other facets of life.

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
All things considered, enjoying the toil is the least grimdark thing I could think of for a clone race in 40k. Imagine if working gave you fulfillment. Humans won't even have that once work is no longer needed. But to enjoy working in and of itself? While not something I'd sign up for, it's not as bad as the best worlds in the Imperium. It's almost like Orks, who enjoy the fight.

It’s more the outsider perspective. We have in the Votann about as Utopian a society as 40K allows. No shadowy cabal that just happens to be really good at getting others to pull together ala Tau. No oppressive regime ala Imperium.

But…only because they’ve essentially been programmed that way. That brings in the awesomely tricky question of Free Will, and whether the Kin have that. They’re not happy mining stuff having tried other avenues or ways of fulfilment. They enjoy it because they’re designed to do so, from the ground up. If you’re forced to enjoy something, even if you don’t know it, are you truly enjoying it? Are you truly a free and sentient creature, or just a fleshy machine fulfilling your wetware programming?

And depending on how you read their background, it’s the Votann that, in a variation of Lizardmen Spawning in WHFB and AoS, decide what each Kin is going to be, rather than existing Kin deciding what traits the next generation is going to need for their next venture. Not children of insane gods. Goods produced by insane machines.

I know I’m not doing a good job here, and I’m struggling to really get my point and thinking across in a particularly persuasive way. Sincere apologies if it seems I’m just repeating myself over and over. The right words do exist, they’re just not quite coming to me.

I think what I’m getting at is the Kin’s survival comes from Having No Say In The Matter. They have all these wonderful toys, and such potential as a result of them. But their design schematics prevent them doing anything other than the task their inventors assigned millennia ago.

They’re kind of like Orks in that regard I suppose. They universally enjoy mining, and will do anything to go mining. But have no capacity to discover what else they might be good at, if they weren’t solely programmed for mining.

*though one does wonder what Illuminor Szeras might be able to do with such a toy. If (and it’s a big if) he or another has some ancient stock of Necrontyr DNA in stasis somewhere, he could finally crack the reversal of biotransference. Even if he doesn’t, I can see him having a bloody good try at it through trial and error.

I certainly agree that it's bad, but considering the alternatives, just enjoying working sounds decent.

Humans do not get to choose what makes us have fun, or enjoy things. If you're predisposed towards enjoying alcohol, and you get addicted, it's sad. If you get addicted to video games, it's sad. Would you rather survive in a forest, surrounded by predators, with no modern luxuries to being addicted to video games? Both are bad, but I'd choose being addicted to video games. A society which can only get pleasure by following the programming their forefathers forced upon them is certainly grimdark, but less so than the Imperial citizens who don't even get to enjoy it.

But I will clarify again that I don't think it an ideal, just something better than the other races get. Orks being the exception.

@TheBestBucketHead & @Mad Doc Grotsnik: You are both doing a tremendous job expressing the crux of the matter. Hat off.

@gravitywell: Which does rhyme well with the Men of Stone not being philosophically inclined, and the monsters of the Warp preferring the real life of man, and not the half-life of the Stone Men.

Granted, the real deal with the Men of Stone as a driving force during the Dark Age of Technology ought to be found in the direction of cyborg Kron, with Stone symbolizing silicon chips. But the biologically programmed characteristics of the Kin also run in somewhat similar lines, and the association of Dwarf miners with stone is obvious.

Ergo, the allegorical Men of Stone and the Men of Gold and Men of Iron may be understood as compressions of many different but somewhat similar major phenomena which went on during the Dark Age of Technology, all rolled together.

For instance, an argument could be made that Men of Gold either refer to genetically enhanced super humans (strong of limbs), or ordinary humans (brought order to nature). More likely, it refers to both. Not either or.

 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:


For instance, an argument could be made that Men of Gold either refer to genetically enhanced super humans (strong of limbs), or ordinary humans (brought order to nature). More likely, it refers to both. Not either or.

I am in the camp that the Men of Gold are rich industrialists that funded and created the Men of Stone to colonize the galaxy. In context of the Leagues, they are the original owners of the corporations that sent them to mine the galactic core.

 KingGarland wrote:

 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:


For instance, an argument could be made that Men of Gold either refer to genetically enhanced super humans (strong of limbs), or ordinary humans (brought order to nature). More likely, it refers to both. Not either or.

I am in the camp that the Men of Gold are rich industrialists that funded and created the Men of Stone to colonize the galaxy. In context of the Leagues, they are the original owners of the corporations that sent them to mine the galactic core.

This. Pre-Votann we could’ve argued the Men of Gold were altruistic. Those with the resources to let man truly escape its cradle world and seek its destiny in the stars. But now? Now they’re looking to be Pretty Awful.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
I certainly agree that it's bad, but considering the alternatives, just enjoying working sounds decent.

Humans do not get to choose what makes us have fun, or enjoy things. If you're predisposed towards enjoying alcohol, and you get addicted, it's sad. If you get addicted to video games, it's sad. Would you rather survive in a forest, surrounded by predators, with no modern luxuries to being addicted to video games? Both are bad, but I'd choose being addicted to video games. A society which can only get pleasure by following the programming their forefathers forced upon them is certainly grimdark, but less so than the Imperial citizens who don't even get to enjoy it.

But I will clarify again that I don't think it an ideal, just something better than the other races get. Orks being the exception.

It’s the complete lack of choice despite an otherwise advanced society. Granted we’ve not had a huge amount of Kin background yet. But the impression I get is that poverty doesn’t really exist for them, as their society is mutually supportive, and there’s plenty of work to go round.

But each and every Kin is specialised in an area. Not because of study. Not because of personal exploration. But because they’re literally made that way. Pre-destiny and all that. And there will be crappy jobs involved.

It is stated in the codex that the highest form of punishment is exile as it prevents a kin's memories from joining the Votann core which is considered the worst thing for a kin.

This implies that criminals do exist within the leagues and that there are various levels of crimes with appropriate levels of punishment.

Meaning that they must have some degree of free will and personal choice, unless you want to say that they were preprogrammed by the Votann to be criminals which then leads to the questions of why they would do that and the ethics of punishment for doing an action you have no choice over.

 KingGarland wrote:
It is stated in the codex that the highest form of punishment is exile as it prevents a kin's memories from joining the Votann core which is considered the worst thing for a kin.

This implies that criminals do exist within the leagues and that there are various levels of crimes with appropriate levels of punishment.

Meaning that they must have some degree of free will and personal choice, unless you want to say that they were preprogrammed by the Votann to be criminals which then leads to the questions of why they would do that and the ethics of punishment for doing an action you have no choice over.

I think the line of argument would be those are the "defectives", just as there are a few tools/products in every production line that fail to perform up to standard. I don't think the Kin claim the First Ancestors or Votann to be infallible.

Anyway, the Urani-Surtr Regulates (URSR) subfaction seem to take certain Kin aspects to their extreme, such as demanding every Kindred maintain as large a population as possible by accepting an ascetic lifestyle with the bare minimum of food, light, air, and heat. The Kin seem to be on a perpetual search for more resources. When they do find them, they don't use them to make consumer goods or otherwise raise the quality of life for themselves, but instead use them to make even more capital goods with which to acquire even more resources. The URSR seem to extend that even to basic life support. Somehow got more food and the energy to make more air and heat? Don't relax, make more Kin.

 KingGarland wrote:
It is stated in the codex that the highest form of punishment is exile as it prevents a kin's memories from joining the Votann core which is considered the worst thing for a kin.

This implies that criminals do exist within the leagues and that there are various levels of crimes with appropriate levels of punishment.

Meaning that they must have some degree of free will and personal choice, unless you want to say that they were preprogrammed by the Votann to be criminals which then leads to the questions of why they would do that and the ethics of punishment for doing an action you have no choice over.

It’s also clear crime is super rare.

The Kin put that down to the strength of their familial bonds and the resulting horror of exile as a punishment.

But. Is it? Is it really the reason? Or is that criminals are just the result of faulty programming?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 KingGarland wrote:
I am in the camp that the Men of Gold are rich industrialists that funded and created the Men of Stone to colonize the galaxy. In context of the Leagues, they are the original owners of the corporations that sent them to mine the galactic core.

This. Pre-Votann we could’ve argued the Men of Gold were altruistic. Those with the resources to let man truly escape its cradle world and seek its destiny in the stars. But now? Now they’re looking to be Pretty Awful.

Aye. Which bounce back to the issue of unpacking tangled categories where several different things seem to have been lumped together, because in the compressed rear-view mirror of history they were close enough to fit a neat category in the material trinity of the Men of Gold, Stone and Iron. Later on I'll have to lay it out in a thread of its own. But take mamspaghetti's magisterial series of analyses of the Dark Age of Technology over on Reddit, for instance (third post contain the link index). There, an argument is made for the Men of Gold being genetically enhanced super humans by focusing on those parts of background references that would seem to hint that way.

Yet there are other lines of writing which would suggest Men of Gold to be baseline humanity. And with the Votann codex, Men of Gold has taken on a more literal meaning as very likely also refering to people of means and owners of industry. I would argue that all three current interpretations are correct, rolled into one handy allegory (and given that baseline or superhuman do not exclude industrialist, it's an overlap). I think that they are best to be understood as different facets of the Dark Age of Technology that have been lumped together, because in contrast to the Men of Stone and Iron, they make for a natural sweeping category stretching from baseline humans taming nature on Old Earth, to interstellar megacorporations breeding slave races to mine the galactic core, with all manner of genetic engineering poured into these rich owners of industry (and maybe people of lesser means as well).

A note on altruistic Men of Gold: We have long had several indicators that the Dark Age of Technology had a ruthless and dark side, behind the idyllic exterior, the professed ideals and the high living standard. For instance, Gellar fields requiring a comatose psyker to power them, or the Houses of the Navis Nobilite dating back to the Dark Age of Technology. And given that greed and will to expand have been primary driving forces through all of human history, a past involving megacorporations being in the driver's seat during crucial stretches of human history has long seemed plausible in 40k. Especially since the Dark Age of Technology is a lot of science fiction themes rolled into one, very much including megacorporations. And especially so in contrast to the basically Late Antique Roman and parodic Medieval Age of Imperium, where the drive and importance of merchants have wilted, and where industry has lost almost all inventive power. With the Votann codex, the corporate leap of logic has explicit background references to go by, which is another gift from the background writers to the setting as a whole.

Also worth keeping in mind the Kin’s own history will be a result of….the same programming.

Men of Gold? Men that benefit from you putting them on a pedestal to better keep you in line.

Indeed. As per ancient mythologies: You would have to be a stupid creator not to design your creations to worship you.

I wonder what effect that truth (if it is indeed a truth) might have upon the Kin?

I mean, Ancestors are a massive thing for them. To find out those they consider The First Ancestors never gave a fig about the Kin, only about the goodies they might be able to extract.

Biggest hurdle there is the imprinted pragmatism. It’s one thing not to care. It’s quite another not being able to care, no?

It sure is. And therein lies the hidden repulsiveness at the heart of the Kin and their origins. On the surface, they might seem like the most successful Dark Age of Technology remnant by a long shot, still going strong, still pursuing their mission, still preserving the better material ways of ancient humanity (even though the most advanced ancient spearhead technologies are well beyond them). And their civilization is one that build wonders across the stars and is characterized by order and perfectionist toil.

Yet scratch the surface, and the grimdark is there right from the start. A slave race designed not to care that they are slaves. And historical developments among the Kin has ensured that nowadays Squats are willing to strip-mine entire worlds and indifferently fight down their native inhabitants who do not run away.

It's a more nuanced grimdark craziness than that of Orks, Chaos and the Imperium of Man, but the Kin sure are no naïve upstarts willing to extend a helping hand and assume the best of new encounters.

GW blew past expectations this time around. I've occasionally held brainstorming sessions with friends on how one could design Squats to be more than just Dwarfs in space, and fit into 40k with strong themes of their own just as Eldar do. Asteroid mining was a given, but I can only take off my hat for Games Workshop's studio folks gunning for clunky AI and Dark Age of Technology era of discovery remnant themes. The basic premise is exquisite, and the presentation is polished.

What's not to love? The fact that the new Squats inspire these background discussions, in a way that old Squats never managed to do, means that they've hit the bull's eye in this case.

Do you think that Kin are programmed to be the type of people that work when depressed? So if they do ever find out, they just go to work, depressed, and when they stop being useful, they kill or expel them?

As a person who went from believing in a loving god, to the understanding that the universe is cruel and uncaring, I think the Kin realizing their ancestors made them purely as tools would cause a split. One group would likely look for meaning, and that side is likely to join chaos, or serve the Emperor. The others might be emboldened by this. They enjoyed working for their ancestors, but now they can enjoy it for themselves. They can continue doing what they love, but without the need to please someone.

In all likelihood, the second group would never get the opportunity. The first may prosper, or die, or splinter, but the absurdists of Votann society would likely splinter or be suppressed. A new generation of clones, or even the same generations, fighting to protect or destroy their society. Possibly only to emerge as he same society, no matter which side won.

To toil is to live. Why not enjoy it? One must imagine the Leagues happy.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Or is that criminals are just the result of faulty programming?

An interesting thought that I won't even begin to claim has any basis in lore nor would I say is necessarily a part of my own head cannon, but simply an interesting thought worth sharing: A kin programmed to be a criminal every now and then would demonstrate the consequences of straying from society's norms, which would help to tamp down any faulty programming that might occur.

Bloody good interesting thought!

I think it would be hard to definitely prove something about the Ancestors to the point of it being accepted as truth among the Kin. Even if it could be shown that the Kin were meant to be tools only, I think the inherent pragmatism of the Kin would not lead to any huge existential crisis. They might shrug and then just go back to their work. Whatever their purpose was, they have survived and will continue to do so.

On another note, maybe the old theme of Dwarven treasure hoard can be the Kin dutifully stockpiling resources for a delivery or "pickup" that never occurs, even though they themselves may no longer be quite sure why they do so. They could stockpile, stack up those ingots, feel good about it for some vague indescribable reason, then go back to mine some more.

Iracundus wrote:
I think it would be hard to definitely prove something about the Ancestors to the point of it being accepted as truth among the Kin. Even if it could be shown that the Kin were meant to be tools only, I think the inherent pragmatism of the Kin would not lead to any huge existential crisis. They might shrug and then just go back to their work. Whatever their purpose was, they have survived and will continue to do so.

On another note, maybe the old theme of Dwarven treasure hoard can be the Kin dutifully stockpiling resources for a delivery or "pickup" that never occurs, even though they themselves may no longer be quite sure why they do so. They could stockpile, stack up those ingots, feel good about it for some vague indescribable reason, then go back to mine some more.

Step 1. Collect Resources

Step 2. Pile it up neatly over there

Step 3.

Step 4. Biiiiig profit!

Though there is an amusing possibility in play. They were misprogrammed. I mean when you’re sending expeditions into the Deep Core to mine stuff for you, you need that to be self propagating. What if the Kin only ever put the resources they mined into expansion as the result of a single faulty line of coding?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Though there is an amusing possibility in play. They were misprogrammed. I mean when you’re sending expeditions into the Deep Core to mine stuff for you, you need that to be self propagating. What if the Kin only ever put the resources they mined into expansion as the result of a single faulty line of coding?

It does seem like that way. They seem to subsist on a pretty spartan lifestyle except for the Ymyr (maybe they are ones with more intact stockpiling code) with the URSR taking this to its most extreme, paring consumption down to a minimum in favor of making more Kin. Perhaps long ago they did work as intended but then with time and extended periods of hard radiation, maybe they got corrupted (not in the sense of Chaos but by errors being introduced). Their Men of Gold masters forgot about them or had bigger things to deal with such as the fall of the Dark Age of Technology and the upheaval of the Age of Strife. The Kin get forgotten and their errors go unfixed so they keep going deeper into the Core, delving, mining, stockpiling, and using some small amount of those resources to expand and repeat the cycle. Biological Von Neumann machines.

The faultiness could also come from the Votann themselves as it was repeated stated that over the millennium they have been getting more and more corrupted and glitchy.

I'm working on the backstory of my army, mostly to justify some conversions I made.

My kin are the descendants of a clan that long ago lost their Votann Core, although exactly how this happened is vague. Some say that they failed to protect it during an enemy invasion, others that it was a natural disaster. Either way they are viewed by other kin with a bit of suspicion, though not truly ostrosized.

Having long ago lost their homeworld they have become a fleet based race, making a living on the skirts of Imperial and LoV spaces in any way they can. To the Imperials they pass themselves off as abhuman miners, laborers, freighters, and mercenaries. Only a fraction of their former industrial base remains, and the equipment they use is a mix of relics from their past, rare newly made items, and purchased Imperial tech they have been able to upgrade to near Votann standards.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'm working on the backstory of my army, mostly to justify some conversions I made.

My kin are the descendants of a clan that long ago lost their Votann Core, although exactly how this happened is vague. Some say that they failed to protect it during an enemy invasion, others that it was a natural disaster. Either way they are viewed by other kin with a bit of suspicion, though not truly ostrosized.

Having long ago lost their homeworld they have become a fleet based race, making a living on the skirts of Imperial and LoV spaces in any way they can. To the Imperials they pass themselves off as abhuman miners, laborers, freighters, and mercenaries. Only a fraction of their former industrial base remains, and the equipment they use is a mix of relics from their past, rare newly made items, and purchased Imperial tech they have been able to upgrade to near Votann standards.

Do you have links to any of your models, it’d be cool to see them. Like the back ground too.

It's a interesting thought to guess at how the Kin would react when they learn about their history/purpose.

What about the AI? I've wondered if they are a true AI since they seem to willingly participate. But, then like the Kin maybe they are programmed for the arrangement.

Same sort of question for the Votann itself...

I'm still working my way through the codex myself, but my takeaway so far hasn't been that all the work and mining and resource acquisition is because the Kin were programmed that way as a slave-race. I thought it was made very clear that when whatever happened to cut them off from Far Space so long ago meant that survival in the harsh environment of the Core suddenly got even harder.

So every resource, new or recycled, was possibly the difference between survival or the extinction of Kindred, Hold, League, or maybe even the whole race. So they just collect, and maintain, and recycle, and explore, and survey, and mine....and survive.

I'm not needing to look much harder for the GrimDark, honestly. Because while they have retained old technologies undreamed of by the AdMech, it's very specifically the technologies or variants of the technologies you would bring just to survive the Core - not the full breadth of the High Technology humanity used to have. And everything they do, everything they take, everything they believe, is all centered around basic survival in the place that only they (and orks and Tyranids, apparently) can survive. But, it's not all bad. The very harshness they must center their entire society around surviving is also what provides them their freedom and security from all the other malign threats of the galaxy, not least of which is the Imperium that has no idea just how vast, varied, and rich the Leagues' empire actually is.

But, when it all comes down to it, they are the dwarves and they are digging a hole, and if they ever stop digging, the hole will kill them.

Yes, surviving in the galactic core is a big part of it, and the analogy to digging a hole that can kill them is wonderful, but a lot of the origins are likewise implied throughout the codex.

They were clearly genetically engineered. They were clearly sent to the Core to mine it (see also stray elderly kindred names of a corporate nature). They clearly excel at it. They clearly are a remarkably ordered society. And the Cloneskeins will help ensure that it remains so.

Now, ordinary humans do not work in that way, no matter how much they might wish to. Draw from that your own conclusions.

The unspoken implications of the codex is one of its genius bits: You arrive at the supreme being, namely a fantasy Dwarf in space, by a disturbing route. They are engineered to be that way. It is not all culture and historical adaptations to the environment of the Core. It must also be genetically programmed into them.

The bright side being that the same traits that made them excellent self-sustaining slaves in all but name, has stood them in fantastic stead once they were cut loose and had to run the gauntlet independently.

They were made to thrive in this harsh Core mining life, and that they have succeeded in doing beyond all expectations.

Remember that interpreting the stray references to the Dark Age of Technology is intentionally made to be a detective case, a puzzle with only a few pieces left. It is written as a tantalizing mystery. I can recommend checking out this analysis (link index) of previous DAoT material for reference. Taking it at face value is fun, but thinking deeper about it is even more fun.

Cheers

- - -

Bonus: My friend JAB's own codex impressions, written prior to showing him this thread:

JAB wrote:"I especially like how the codex starts optimistic and builds up toward that which makes them demented and crazy like the rest of the galaxy.

My feeling is that the Kin are designed to carry out a task which no longer needs doing. They, like their Votanns, have had to work for too long.

I do not believe they were intented for such violent and ruthless exploitation for all eternity. Such as depleting planets with the population still on them.

The Kin carry out their task without any consideration for whom it would have been of gain. All there is, is exploitation and work into the grave so that future generations shall be able to toil and labour just as hard into their own graves.

The promise of a better tomorrow for human and Kin is gone. The toil which could have led to a future, without hardship and ache where people can live in joy and wealth, is forgotten and buried.

All there is left, is work for the sake of work.

It is Sauron's utopia."

 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:


Bonus: My friend JAB's own codex impressions, written prior to showing him this thread:

JAB wrote:"I especially like how the codex starts optimistic and builds up toward that which makes them demented and crazy like the rest of the galaxy.

My feeling is that the Kin are designed to carry out a task which no longer needs doing. They, like their Votanns, have had to work for too long.

I do not believe they were intented for such violent and ruthless exploitation for all eternity. Such as depleting planets with the population still on them.

The Kin carry out their task without any consideration for whom it would have been of gain. All there is, is exploitation and work into the grave so that future generations shall be able to toil and labour just as hard into their own graves.

The promise of a better tomorrow for human and Kin is gone. The toil which could have led to a future, without hardship and ache where people can live in joy and wealth, is forgotten and buried.

All there is left, is work for the sake of work.

It is Sauron's utopia."

That nicely fits into overarching themes for 40k, namely that the sins of the fathers are visited on the sons, that the past refuses to die completely, but also returns as horrific mockery of what it used to be.

The Votann build gigantic stockpiles that nobody will ever come to collect, and are genetically forbidden from asking the obvious question of why they toil, just like the Eldar and Orks are sentient weapons fighting on in a war that ended in mutual destruction eons ago, or like Space Marines fighting for a God-Emperor that once set out to abolish the very concept of Gods.

It's a galaxy where the Sorcerer's Apprentice has long been drowned and the animated brooms fight among the soaked ruins.

It’s a tragedy bordering on pathetic. In a good way.

The Votann are almost certainly deliberately engineered for mining, but also for a lack of fundamental freedom.

Hence mining is in their blood. They’re good at it, it provides them what they need. But it’s all they know.

One could point this out to them with, aha, cast iron evidence of their origins and intent behind those origins, but the self same design? Stops them from caring.

And that’s where they border into pathetic. They’re not “Real Boys”. They’re machines, albeit fleshy organic machines. Just as Ford once said “you can have it in any colour, as long as it’s black”, Kin can be anything they want - as long as they want to be a miner.

As noted that they’re Really Good At It, and their purpose furnishes them with everything they need, leading to their longevity and exquisite preservation of things long since lost to humanity fits the farcical nature of 40K nicely.

But there’s also room for a darker side to it, particularly during the Dark Age of Technology. As I’ve speculated, they didn’t fall foul of the Men of Iron, because they seemingly never treated the Men of Iron as anything less than equals. They’re all slaves at the end of the day, and it’s that common station which spared them the doom of earlier humanity. But what if the Kin were part and parcel of that rebellion, with the Votann actively erasing history there, seeing with the rise of The Imperium, a war they didn’t need to fight?

They have the good sense to hide the extent of AI in their society, and protect the Votann. And that knowledge must’ve come from somewhere. That could be the result of early contact with the Great Crusade. Even a single Rogue Trader discovering a Votann, knowing it for what is, and then being horribly murdered as a defensive measure, the existence and nature of the Votann then being a priority, and added to the Cloneskein mix, further removing personal agency from the Kin as a species.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s a tragedy bordering on pathetic. In a good way.

The Votann are almost certainly deliberately engineered for mining, but also for a lack of fundamental freedom.

Hence mining is in their blood. They’re good at it, it provides them what they need. But it’s all they know.

One could point this out to them with, aha, cast iron evidence of their origins and intent behind those origins, but the self same design? Stops them from caring.

And that’s where they border into pathetic. They’re not “Real Boys”. They’re machines, albeit fleshy organic machines. Just as Ford once said “you can have it in any colour, as long as it’s black”, Kin can be anything they want - as long as they want to be a miner.

As noted that they’re Really Good At It, and their purpose furnishes them with everything they need, leading to their longevity and exquisite preservation of things long since lost to humanity fits the farcical nature of 40K nicely.

It also makes for a nice change of pace from the classic tolkienean dwarf trope of them being greedy without any deeper motivation. Squats are not greedy because the story demands it, they are literally made that way and can't help it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But there’s also room for a darker side to it, particularly during the Dark Age of Technology. As I’ve speculated, they didn’t fall foul of the Men of Iron, because they seemingly never treated the Men of Iron as anything less than equals. They’re all slaves at the end of the day, and it’s that common station which spared them the doom of earlier humanity. But what if the Kin were part and parcel of that rebellion, with the Votann actively erasing history there, seeing with the rise of The Imperium, a war they didn’t need to fight?

They have the good sense to hide the extent of AI in their society, and protect the Votann. And that knowledge must’ve come from somewhere. That could be the result of early contact with the Great Crusade. Even a single Rogue Trader discovering a Votann, knowing it for what is, and then being horribly murdered as a defensive measure, the existence and nature of the Votann then being a priority, and added to the Cloneskein mix, further removing personal agency from the Kin as a species.

There's a subtle-ish story thread hinted at in the codex about how their whole society is integrated with or infiltrated by the robo-Stasi: They have that saying of ''The Ancestors are always watching'', and that is quite literally true because on one hand, each individuals memories are analyzed and integrated into the Votann core after that individuals demise, and on the other the Ironkin and COG units can upload whatever they learned even more often, if not actually in real time. So, combined with the fact that Squats prize efficiency above all things and that the robo-things make excellent tools and helpers, you'd seldom be more than a few steps away from what effectively constitutes a listening device for Friend Computer. And because of the efficiency fetish, even voicing the desire to get away from them and their 'help' would immediately mark you as suspicious and un-Votann-like, so it's either panopticon all the time or bust for you. Depending on how literal the memory analysis and integration after death is meant to be, even seditious thoughts that you literally never voiced or acted upon for your whole life would be pried from your deep consciousness and analyzed after the fact, so you literally can't even think about rebelling without risking dire consequences for your descendants.