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Honestly I kinda like using inches in my wargame. Otherwise i'd have absolutely no reference with the silly measurements as Metric is used everywhere else, for me at least. Lets me know how those funny American's measure things.

Dudeface wrote:

 PaddyMick wrote:
I hope in vain that 10th will be an appropriate edition to decimlise. Not the dice - although i'd like more than just d6's used - but dropping the inches and going to just centimetres.

I don't mean to be condescending when I type this, I mean it very earnestly and literally. I imagine a chunk of the American audience would strongly dislike this and likely cause enough impact to bother GWs bottom line.

I'm American and I'd love it. Then again, I'm science so I'm used to metric.

There's two things that the US unequivocally does worse than the rest of the world, not using metric and not using bidets.

Just from a games design point of view, using both in one game is kind of dumb.

'The objective is 50mm in diameter and you are on it if you are 3'' away' is not a sentence that's actually in the core book but it's how it's played.


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You are not alone on either there Hecaton; in the UK all the road signs are in miles, and first time I went on hols to spain, I took a crap in the bidet, thinking it was a toilet.

 vict0988 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

vict0988 wrote:Autocannons were developed after the heresy, that sounds like a good reason for them not being standard CSM gear.

Ummm, what?????

Tell me you don't know 30k without telling me you don't know 30k....

So that support weapon box that includes autocannons I just bought was developed after the heresy...man I've got some back to the future gak goin on for my 3rd & 18th legions. Must be warp trickery

Assault cannon is what I meant. I'm sure that was tough to figure out even though I was responding to someone talking about CSM not using assault cannons because they are too unreliable. Derp.

Racerguy may have been confused because Assault Cannons were also in use during the Heresy, though in limited quantities and generally in the hands of just a few Legions. So that isn't the reason CSM don't favor their use in current 40k. And they can steal them from the bodies of dead loyalists if they wanted, which we have in lore examples of (1st Claw says "Hi), or could be taken along with other Loyalist equipment by Renegades when they turn, but still aren't favored by them either.

As for your little post further up thread, both Vlad and Lord Zarkov have already basically said what I would have, so I see no reason to reiterate the same facts, as they've already refuted it just fine.

Hecaton wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:

Even in editions like 5th where the CSM book largely covered modern renegades (who would have originally had assault cannons and not autocannons), they’re all using the latter…

Sure, but the motivation for the 5e CSM codex focusing on renegades seems to be making the faction less cool; they thought the 3.5e Chaos Codex was too fun and too many people were playing them compared to loyalist Astartes. So it was more like "cool off this faction, make them loyalist space marines with less options and less power."

Yeah, I'm sure that was PRECISELY their thinking...

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

vict0988 wrote:Autocannons were developed after the heresy, that sounds like a good reason for them not being standard CSM gear.

Ummm, what?????

Tell me you don't know 30k without telling me you don't know 30k....

So that support weapon box that includes autocannons I just bought was developed after the heresy...man I've got some back to the future gak goin on for my 3rd & 18th legions. Must be warp trickery

Assault cannon is what I meant. I'm sure that was tough to figure out even though I was responding to someone talking about CSM not using assault cannons because they are too unreliable. Derp.

Racerguy may have been confused because Assault Cannons were also in use during the Heresy, though in limited quantities and generally in the hands of just a few Legions. So that isn't the reason CSM don't favor their use in current 40k. And they can steal them from the bodies of dead loyalists if they wanted, which we have in lore examples of (1st Claw says "Hi), or could be taken along with other Loyalist equipment by Renegades when they turn, but still aren't favored by them either.

As for your little post further up thread, both Vlad and Lord Zarkov have already basically said what I would have, so I see no reason to reiterate the same facts, as they've already refuted it just fine.

Don't look at the Chaos Contemptor datasheet, that might reveal that the CSM still use the assault cannons that were in use at the time of the Horus Heresy. Of course, you'll be playing the lore friendly way by using volkites I bet /sarcasm. Why do you care if I got the identity of Chaos Space Marines wrong anyway? I'd be fine if GW identified CSM as the faction using rugged technology with easier maintenance requirements (like feeding Daemon engines cultists instead of lubricating their joints with oil. I still think factions should ideally have empty spots in their rosters, like Drukhari not having a 2+ Sv T8 non-FLY transport. I don't know what spots in the CSM roster should be left empty to represent their distaste for wargear that isn't rugged, perhaps they should just have a smaller variety of special and heavy weapons compared to SM.

 vict0988 wrote:
. . .
Don't look at the Chaos Contemptor datasheet, that might reveal that the CSM still use the assault cannons that were in use at the time of the Horus Heresy.

Well indeed that would be the Kheres Assault Cannon, which was indeed a thing at the time of the HH, unlike the standard Assault Cannon which came later.

As for technology:
"The Traitor Terminators, lacking the technology and equipment to maintain the notoriously fickle Assault Cannon, still make use of the Reaper with its simpler mechanisms and solid ammunition." Chaos Codex 2nd ed, pg. 73.

It's in the lore that Chaos tends to use more sturdy and reliable equipment because they don't have the same supporting infrastructure the loyalists do. It's a thing.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
. . .
Don't look at the Chaos Contemptor datasheet, that might reveal that the CSM still use the assault cannons that were in use at the time of the Horus Heresy.

Well indeed that would be the Kheres Assault Cannon, which was indeed a thing at the time of the HH, unlike the standard Assault Cannon which came later.

As for technology:
"The Traitor Terminators, lacking the technology and equipment to maintain the notoriously fickle Assault Cannon, still make use of the Reaper with its simpler mechanisms and solid ammunition." Chaos Codex 2nd ed, pg. 73.

It's in the lore that Chaos tends to use more sturdy and reliable equipment because they don't have the same supporting infrastructure the loyalists do. It's a thing.

I wasn't born when that book was released, I hope you'll give me a break

 Insectum7 wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
. . .
Don't look at the Chaos Contemptor datasheet, that might reveal that the CSM still use the assault cannons that were in use at the time of the Horus Heresy.

Well indeed that would be the Kheres Assault Cannon, which was indeed a thing at the time of the HH, unlike the standard Assault Cannon which came later.

As for technology:
"The Traitor Terminators, lacking the technology and equipment to maintain the notoriously fickle Assault Cannon, still make use of the Reaper with its simpler mechanisms and solid ammunition." Chaos Codex 2nd ed, pg. 73.

It's in the lore that Chaos tends to use more sturdy and reliable equipment because they don't have the same supporting infrastructure the loyalists do. It's a thing.

Assault cannon on terminators was also around on heresy ;-)

And chaos has entire hive worlds with dark mechanicusm pumping out gear

 PaddyMick wrote:
Just from a games design point of view, using both in one game is kind of dumb.

'The objective is 50mm in diameter and you are on it if you are 3'' away' is not a sentence that's actually in the core book but it's how it's played.


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You are not alone on either there Hecaton; in the UK all the road signs are in miles, and first time I went on hols to spain, I took a crap in the bidet, thinking it was a toilet.

In lotr GW used inch + cm next to each other. So you had every range given in both. In our group we always used the cm because that's what we knew. When we started 40K we were surprised to only see these strange inches everywhere and no cm . They took away the cm with the Hobbit IIRC. My gaming group is still catching up on the inch-values for lotr but that's more because we play lotr rarely these days.
So, since they did away with the metric system in lotr I don't think they'll introduce it for 40K. There's a long tradition of using inches in wargames I feel. Yes, GW sometimes does things differently like moving to their strange minimum table sizes when everybody else is okay with 6x4 tables since 30 years, but we know that's just because of GW's box sizes.

CSM use slaves to manage all lot of their production and maintenance from what I have read. Quality is assured because failure is a fate worse than death


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And there must be some former tech marines knocking around, even if they have become warp smiths they still know how make and fox stuff and how to pass that info onto whomever had been pressed into service

 PaddyMick wrote:
I hope in vain that 10th will be an appropriate edition to decimlise. Not the dice - although i'd like more than just d6's used - but dropping the inches and going to just centimetres.

Interesting note but if I recall correctly the Batman Miniature Game started off using centimeters, but eventually moved to inches as it was just a more handy measurement for the size skirmish games are played on. So it appears it's something that has already been tried in the industry.

this has more to do with Spain being different, as even GW games were sold with metric for Spain (hence the original Warhammer dice set had 2 different artillery dice, one with inch, one with cm)

knightmodels going with Inch over Metric is simply because they made the step up from their local spanish market to international one, and if you want a game to sell in the english speaking world, it needs to be with inch (for whatever reason)

Inch being more handy is usually based on the unit stats being 1-10, so movement in inch fits those better (also with 25mm Base, 1 Base-Width = 1 Inch), while for games 1-20 or with fixed movements it does not matter

PS: the other GW game using metric instead of imperial was BFG and everyone was fine with it

 kodos wrote:
(also with 25mm Base, 1 Base-Width = 1 Inch),

Not really. As 25mm ISN'T inch it made so big difference between 25mm and 32mm base with 1" range being able to fight in 2 ranks with 25mm while 32mm couldn't. Because 25mm is UNDER inch.

I don't care what base sizes GW uses to piss on 3rd party products (if we are nit picking here, the bases GW sold were never the size they wrote on the package as their early 25mm were 23 or 24mm, their 60mm were 65mn etc)

Measuring in Base-Width was and is pretty much the standard to scale game sizes with miniature sizes

Hence you use movement stats from 1-10 ad depending on the scale 1-Movement means 1cm, 2cm, 2,5cm, 5cm, 6,25cm

And with the 25/28mm model scale and individual 25mm bases 1 Base-Width being 1 inch was the most practical one (but of course because wargaming is an exact science people have ordered special 25,4mm bases to replace the original 24mm bases from GW)

40k is too big to fail now. They should just rip the band-aid off and go full blown action economy system instead of the "full army" activation it's been forever.

Also if the game is intended to be played on the scale current 2k points are, then we need less micro-adjustments to list building. Fully embrace if this is a smaller scale skirmish game where each dude is unique, or an abstract full scale war game where individuality adds unnecessary time to the games.

Basically, just get the game scale:bloat ratio to a point where games fun:tedium ratio is healthy.

I personally don't think 10th is due next year, not with the big new boarding action announcement and WE to come. I think it'll be 2025.

I personally don't want it to come but not through a love for 9th, just so they can really go back to the drawing board a bit, take the lessons from 8th & 9th and give us a 10th that has the finesse and streamlined nature of early 8th but with a bit of the flavour brought about in 9th, that can possibly last a good 5 or so years with maybe incremental updates rather than whole new editions.

mrFickle wrote:
CSM use slaves to manage all lot of their production and maintenance from what I have read. Quality is assured because failure is a fate worse than death

Tried in the real world and it did not improve the end quality of products, military or not.

 Just Tony wrote:


Yeah, I'm sure that was PRECISELY their thinking...

I mean these are the same people who thought that it was a problem that Warriors of Chaos were the most played WHF army for a while.


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mrFickle wrote:
CSM use slaves to manage all lot of their production and maintenance from what I have read. Quality is assured because failure is a fate worse than death


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And there must be some former tech marines knocking around, even if they have become warp smiths they still know how make and fox stuff and how to pass that info onto whomever had been pressed into service

Are you familiar with the Dark Mechanicum?

Karol wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
CSM use slaves to manage all lot of their production and maintenance from what I have read. Quality is assured because failure is a fate worse than death

Tried in the real world and it did not improve the end quality of products, military or not.

good thing 40k isnt the real world

Hecaton wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:


Yeah, I'm sure that was PRECISELY their thinking...

I mean these are the same people who thought that it was a problem that Warriors of Chaos were the most played WHF army for a while.

Yeah, I'm gonna need a source on that. I really don't see them saying "This one faction is selling TOO well."

Semper wrote:
I personally don't think 10th is due next year, not with the big new boarding action announcement and WE to come. I think it'll be 2025.

I personally don't want it to come but not through a love for 9th, just so they can really go back to the drawing board a bit, take the lessons from 8th & 9th and give us a 10th that has the finesse and streamlined nature of early 8th but with a bit of the flavour brought about in 9th, that can possibly last a good 5 or so years with maybe incremental updates rather than whole new editions.

The boarding system thing is just psychic awakening mk2. At last half a year or so of old edition there's new campaign book system to tide you over without new codex every month or so.

WE is out in january so plenty of itme.

A game should only take an hour if both players completely know their stuff, and aren't trying anything underhanded on eachother... All these rule changes, ablative "bonus conditions" and other mechanics, are further and further extending the time it should take to quickly hash out a turn... Hopefully 10E completely levels the playing field and gives everyone an Index to use...