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Personally, I always use Primaris Marines to proxy the old SM, because their scale are more realistic and less heroic.

However, GW has still dont make the Heavy Weapon Primaris Marines (I.E Primaris Devastators) and special weapons. It is extremely difficult to represent the old SM with PSM. I hate this very much.


In fact, is it really a good decision to create a fresh new Primaris Marines out of nothing?

The new Sisters of battle and the new Guardsmen have completely improved body scale, rather than creating a brandnew “Primaris SoB/Guardsmen”. People are very happy about this and have no any problem to accept them.


Similarly, if GW just launched NEW SM miniatures with a new scale at that time, for example, "Driven by Guilliman, Mechanicum published new cool MKX armor and a lot of novel and shiny wargear and vehicles!"—————— Will consumers have any comments on this? I don't think so.

However, GW did not do this, but created a new PSM. Completely unable to understand their purpose - perhaps they are planning the future Order 66 event and Primaris Heresy?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
BTW: Is there any third party that has make heavy weapons and special weapons for PSM?

The heavy weapons and special weapons of the old SM cannot be directly fited on the PSM. They are too small. Even with Greenstuff work, these arms are too thin for PSM.

Was making Primaris a mistake on GWs part?
Whatever your opinions on that it doesn't seem to have hurt GW in any noticeable way. So probably not....


I'm sure you can find somebody out there who can 3d print you enlarged special/heavy weapons.

In the meantime, have you tried the HH weapon sprues?

The models are cool. The lore is painfully stupid. The rules have contributed significantly to the rules bloat problem. So yes, IMO releasing primaris marines as a new set of units instead of true-scale normal marines was a mistake.

The mistake was what was rumoured, that Primaris were a wholesale replacement for Marines, not a "new" type of Marine.

Apparently the reaction to the Sigmarines/AoS dissuaded GW from going this route.

Definitely a mistake upscale marines great they where too small. Primaris fluff and rules blote awful.

Primaris are trash. GW should have just redone the Marine line. Imo they probably still will.

I wanted larger scale marines but I don't care for the design of the Mk X power armor, so the Primaris release did not give me a desire to start replacing my marines.

I feel they will at some point start updating old marine units into primaris and fold the rules into each other.

As for mistake, it’s probably depends how and who you ask the question too.
If it was bad to do, I think it’s effects are long term than short.

Kind of feels like I've fallen into a thread necro from 2017...

Practically, Primaris look better than old squat marines and I suspect that's enough for "current actual buyers". Not people who bought some Marines a decade or two ago and sure, could buy more, maybe, one day, but probably won't.

Pretty sure if they'd just upscaled what was there, the haters who hate on primaris would have e just hated on gw for being lazy and making 'malibu Stacy with a new hat' and have a go at them for having the opportunity to do something new/amazing with new fluff and they just bottled it. Or that there's no 'need' to buy them since their old marines are perfectly game-legal, which would open another avenue for them.to have a go (aka why is gw selling me my very same army twice?)

Truth is the oldstartes line was mined out and showing its age from a systems level. New stuff was tacky and often silly. From a business/design pov primaris gives them new design space and room to play with and even correct mistakes they've done in the past.

My issues with gw are less with the new models and even less with the new lore (which was silly and imo hints should have e been dropped with years for this to hook them into the setting- I still remember the short story from the 3rd Ed codex which basically describes a primaris marine), it's more with their modern approach with unit having a bespoke bolt-noun-gun and what not. But that's not a primaris thing per se.

Anyway primaris we're what brought me back to gw. Love building and painting them.

Personally I like the Primaris line.

I think my biggest criticism of the line is that too many of the weapon options and/or units differences between sibling Primaris models tend to be so minimal that I can't really see the point of them.

I wouldn't say it was a wrong move, but rather a missed opportunity. GW should have used the Primaris Marines to better redefine the setting rather than have more of the same but with slightly different model propotions. Tho, I must also admit, GW going full "feeding on the old glory" with 40k of all settings is quite ironic. Forget the promise of progression and all that.

I think in hindsight, we can look at the bad, and say "BAD!"

But I think if GW had just released these as true-scaled marines, everyone and their uncle would have rage quit and rage posted loudly, and 8th never would have gotten off the ground.

WWW-STL wrote:
The new Sisters of battle and the new Guardsmen have completely improved body scale, rather than creating a brandnew “Primaris SoB/Guardsmen”. People are very happy about this and have no any problem to accept them.

I’m not sure that’s true. For the upcoming Guard release I personally have seen a lot of belly aching from people saying that the models are too tall. I’m not sure why they think every human in 40K should be exactly the same height and size, but there you go.

For the release of Sisters of Battle I don’t actually remember much complaining, if any. I think most SoB players were just happy to finally have a plastic range.



It seems clear to me why GW released Primaris. They wanted the Marine players to buy more Marines. Seems to have been generally successful, for GW at least.

PenitentJake wrote:
I think in hindsight, we can look at the bad, and say "BAD!"

But I think if GW had just released these as true-scaled marines, everyone and their uncle would have rage quit and rage posted loudly, and 8th never would have gotten off the ground.

Where would that amount of rage have come from, honestly? The scale increase that's happening anyways?

Personally I would have been miffed that I couldn't fill out my current army with new kits, although I would have just taken to ebay to solve that. But I guarantee you that would have been far less irritating to me than NuMarines threatening to replace my army's very existence, and crapping on the lore/setting, etc. I just can't see bigger Marines as being nearly as controversial, especially as "true-scaling" Marines was already a thing.

Chaos Marines have been increased in scale, and very few people seem bothered by it. What seems to be the bother for people are monoposed kits, kits that are lacking in options, and price increases. Not the new scale.

There are no bad ideas, only badly implemented ideas. Making Primaris a thing is not a mistake, the models sell really well and objectively they are of a much higher quality than oldmarines.

Wrong moves from GW is rules bloat on wargear (3 near identical weapon variants per squad! About 1% variance in effectiveness!), rules bloat on datasheets (3 phobos squads with boltguns! Don't forget that each unique bolter has a slightly different ruleset for delivering S4 shooting at 24" range!), and refusing to give customers what they want (meaningful wargear choices).

I quite like the Primaris lore, Roboute and Cawl's heretical adventure in ignoring the codex astartes and blaspheming against the god emperor by "improving" on his divine work is pretty much peak Imperium.

 Insularum wrote:
There are no bad ideas. . .

Haha, well that's certainly untrue.

Eh, I tend to flip-flop on this topic.

Some days I think, yes, they were a horrible mistake, and GW should have just rescaled the SM range. Some days I realize, it's impossible to expand the SM range ad infinitum, eventually they needed to do / change something.

I like the Primaris infantry and bike models. The Primaris tanks are awful. The lore is lackluster at best.

That said, I think the worst thing to come of all this is the fragmentation of the entire SM range and the sizable bloat it added to the game.

 Insectum7 wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
I think in hindsight, we can look at the bad, and say "BAD!"

But I think if GW had just released these as true-scaled marines, everyone and their uncle would have rage quit and rage posted loudly, and 8th never would have gotten off the ground.

Where would that amount of rage have come from, honestly? The scale increase that's happening anyways?

Personally I would have been miffed that I couldn't fill out my current army with new kits, although I would have just taken to ebay to solve that. But I guarantee you that would have been far less irritating to me than NuMarines threatening to replace my army's very existence, and crapping on the lore/setting, etc. I just can't see bigger Marines as being nearly as controversial, especially as "true-scaling" Marines was already a thing.

Chaos Marines have been increased in scale, and very few people seem bothered by it. What seems to be the bother for people are monoposed kits, kits that are lacking in options, and price increases. Not the new scale.

lol this is such a dishonest take. People freak out on a weekly basis about base sizes changing or micro-scale changes.

Here is "where the rage would have come from":
"GW wants me to rebuy my entire army?!"
"I can never buy and enjoy [new unit design] because it doesn't match my old units"
"I can't complete the army I was building because the true scale marines don't match my original squads"

 Altruizine wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
I think in hindsight, we can look at the bad, and say "BAD!"

But I think if GW had just released these as true-scaled marines, everyone and their uncle would have rage quit and rage posted loudly, and 8th never would have gotten off the ground.

Where would that amount of rage have come from, honestly? The scale increase that's happening anyways?

Personally I would have been miffed that I couldn't fill out my current army with new kits, although I would have just taken to ebay to solve that. But I guarantee you that would have been far less irritating to me than NuMarines threatening to replace my army's very existence, and crapping on the lore/setting, etc. I just can't see bigger Marines as being nearly as controversial, especially as "true-scaling" Marines was already a thing.

Chaos Marines have been increased in scale, and very few people seem bothered by it. What seems to be the bother for people are monoposed kits, kits that are lacking in options, and price increases. Not the new scale.

lol this is such a dishonest take. People freak out on a weekly basis about base sizes changing or micro-scale changes.

Here is "where the rage would have come from":
"GW wants me to rebuy my entire army?!"
"I can never buy and enjoy [new unit design] because it doesn't match my old units"
"I can't complete the army I was building because the true scale marines don't match my original squads"

Read it again. I happily aknowledge that people get upset at scale changes. What I'm saying is that the Primaris roll-out caused even more friction, probably a lot more friction.

People complain all the time, about everything. This is true. It should be obvious that some things cause more trouble than others. The notion that people would have complained at a simple scale change for Marines is totally true. But would it have caused as much complaining as the Primaris rollout? No I think not.

Just echoing a lot of what has already been said:

I like the models. They probably should have been fluffed as just a new mark of armor because the primaris fluff is awkward.

I don't like that their tanks are anti-grav as that kind of steps on the toes of tau/eldar, but I do like what they're going for with the impulsor; a vehicle that can behave in very different ways depending on what gear you give it.

Up-scaling marines was a good call.

A degree of the stream-lining they did was also a good call (this is a nu tactical squad, it only has "bolters", but these bolters can actually kill things so they're worth fielding).

The rules bloat was stupid (Intercessors, Incursers, and Infiltrators) with numerous units that fulfill the same role and do the same thing but ever-so-slightly different with no appreciable difference.

The lore is eh. The primaris lore itself is pretty lack-luster but advancing the timeline is good.

I'd say they were a great idea from a market perspective, a decent idea (at first) for game health, and a pretty weak idea in the story department.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
I think in hindsight, we can look at the bad, and say "BAD!"

But I think if GW had just released these as true-scaled marines, everyone and their uncle would have rage quit and rage posted loudly, and 8th never would have gotten off the ground.

Where would that amount of rage have come from, honestly? The scale increase that's happening anyways?

Personally I would have been miffed that I couldn't fill out my current army with new kits, although I would have just taken to ebay to solve that. But I guarantee you that would have been far less irritating to me than NuMarines threatening to replace my army's very existence, and crapping on the lore/setting, etc. I just can't see bigger Marines as being nearly as controversial, especially as "true-scaling" Marines was already a thing.

Chaos Marines have been increased in scale, and very few people seem bothered by it. What seems to be the bother for people are monoposed kits, kits that are lacking in options, and price increases. Not the new scale.

lol this is such a dishonest take. People freak out on a weekly basis about base sizes changing or micro-scale changes.

Here is "where the rage would have come from":
"GW wants me to rebuy my entire army?!"
"I can never buy and enjoy [new unit design] because it doesn't match my old units"
"I can't complete the army I was building because the true scale marines don't match my original squads"

Read it again. I happily aknowledge that people get upset at scale changes. What I'm saying is that the Primaris roll-out caused even more friction, probably a lot more friction.

People complain all the time, about everything. This is true. It should be obvious that some things cause more trouble than others. The notion that people would have complained at a simple scale change for Marines is totally true. But would it have caused as much complaining as the Primaris rollout? No I think not.

I think the complaints about Primaris split two ways:

"This is new lore and is stupid"
and
"This is just a precursor to squatting regular marines"

A simple scale change would have definitely avoided the first bucket of complaints.

But everyone in the second bucket would've still complained, and it would have been a bigger, more inclusive bucket.

The lore is dumb, the models are cool. They should have just been a transition to true scale Marine models. IE: The same rules and roughly equivalent models, so you could use your old marine miniatures, but they would eventually phase out the small models from production and replace them with the true scale models.

So basically, people could still use their old miniatures, but they all had the same profile as the "Primarus" marines which are just new figures to represent everybody. Especially with how they are Primarus-izing all of the named characters, which is a dumb process lorewise. Just be like "They were always this size, we're just updating the model range to be more inline with the background"

 Altruizine wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
I think in hindsight, we can look at the bad, and say "BAD!"

But I think if GW had just released these as true-scaled marines, everyone and their uncle would have rage quit and rage posted loudly, and 8th never would have gotten off the ground.

Where would that amount of rage have come from, honestly? The scale increase that's happening anyways?

Personally I would have been miffed that I couldn't fill out my current army with new kits, although I would have just taken to ebay to solve that. But I guarantee you that would have been far less irritating to me than NuMarines threatening to replace my army's very existence, and crapping on the lore/setting, etc. I just can't see bigger Marines as being nearly as controversial, especially as "true-scaling" Marines was already a thing.

Chaos Marines have been increased in scale, and very few people seem bothered by it. What seems to be the bother for people are monoposed kits, kits that are lacking in options, and price increases. Not the new scale.

lol this is such a dishonest take. People freak out on a weekly basis about base sizes changing or micro-scale changes.

Here is "where the rage would have come from":
"GW wants me to rebuy my entire army?!"
"I can never buy and enjoy [new unit design] because it doesn't match my old units"
"I can't complete the army I was building because the true scale marines don't match my original squads"

Read it again. I happily aknowledge that people get upset at scale changes. What I'm saying is that the Primaris roll-out caused even more friction, probably a lot more friction.

People complain all the time, about everything. This is true. It should be obvious that some things cause more trouble than others. The notion that people would have complained at a simple scale change for Marines is totally true. But would it have caused as much complaining as the Primaris rollout? No I think not.

I think the complaints about Primaris split two ways:

"This is new lore and is stupid"
and
"This is just a precursor to squatting regular marines"

A simple scale change would have definitely avoided the first bucket of complaints.

But everyone in the second bucket would've still complained, and it would have been a bigger, more inclusive bucket.

Judging by the amount of times I've seen people say it would have been better to just upscale RealMarines, I'm gonna disagree.

1. Missile primaris are rumored to be coming.
2. They don’t need a direct replacement for devastators, and I don’t know what you mean when you say they haven’t made any special weapons…they literally have several squads that are dedicated to special weapons.
3. No it wasn’t a mistake, they’re making mad money from primaris.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The mistake was what was rumoured, that Primaris were a wholesale replacement for Marines, not a "new" type of Marine.

Apparently the reaction to the Sigmarines/AoS dissuaded GW from going this route.

^^ This

I still think the original plan was they were a replacement, but somewhere along the way plans were changed or there was too great an outcry to risk it. As for the lore, I absolutely abhor it - but I like the look of the models.

 Stormonu wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The mistake was what was rumoured, that Primaris were a wholesale replacement for Marines, not a "new" type of Marine.

Apparently the reaction to the Sigmarines/AoS dissuaded GW from going this route.

^^ This

I still think the original plan was they were a replacement, but somewhere along the way plans were changed or there was too great an outcry to risk it. As for the lore, I absolutely abhor it - but I like the look of the models.

i think that is still the plan at some point. Might be 10th edition, might be 15th edition, but I think it will happen eventually.

Never thought I would be nostalgic for Summer 2017, but somehow this thread takes me back... Like a rift in the space-time continuum.

 Insularum wrote:
There are no bad ideas, only badly implemented ideas.

If only the rules on the forum were a little looser, this could be the start of so many amazing gags.