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I probably agree with you on some issues, but that's neither here nor there. I don't agree here. Leto is a man in a bind. He's trying to do the right thing, the honorable thing, but the Emperor is sending him to his death. He knows this and is trying in vain to wriggle out of the bullfight, the senseless slaughter (bulls are a big motif in the film). Not understanding this is overlooking some of the book's best themes.

And authoritarian ≠ fascist. The Corrino Empire is neofeudalist, which is authoritarian, but not fascist.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
I probably agree with you on some issues, but that's neither here nor there. I don't agree here. Leto is a man in a bind. He's trying to do the right thing, the honorable thing, but the Emperor is sending him to his death. He knows this and is trying in vain to wriggle out of the bullfight, the senseless slaughter (bulls are a big motif in the film). Not understanding this is overlooking some of the book's best themes.

And authoritarian ≠ fascist. The Corrino Empire is neofeudalist, which is authoritarian, but not fascist.

Leto is not Lawful Stupid, if he did not think he could hold Arrakis he would not have gone. Yes he saw the trap, but the Atreides army was quality, far better than House Harkonnen, and he had a cadre of exceptional and loyal commanders and senior staff. He did not suspect treachery from the Emperor though, even even Thufir Hawat did not recognise that Suk conditioning could be broken.

Given the cards the had Leto believed he could survive and prosper on Arrakis, and during the change moved slowly and cautiously and checked every detail. Herbert makes it very clear that he was doomed, both by prophesy and by treachery, but he held the right cards and played his hand well.

Watch the mini series instead, and also Children of Dune. Although low budget, they're the closest we'll get to a true adaptation of Frank's first three books, and quite Herbertly prove that two trilogies were the way to go.

 Orlanth wrote:
Leto is not Lawful Stupid, if he did not think he could hold Arrakis he would not have gone. Yes he saw the trap, but the Atreides army was quality, far better than House Harkonnen, and he had a cadre of exceptional and loyal commanders and senior staff. He did not suspect treachery from the Emperor though, even even Thufir Hawat did not recognise that Suk conditioning could be broken.

Given the cards the had Leto believed he could survive and prosper on Arrakis, and during the change moved slowly and cautiously and checked every detail. Herbert makes it very clear that he was doomed, both by prophesy and by treachery, but he held the right cards and played his hand well.

Yep. He also didn't necessarily expect a move against him of that size. Space travel is very expensive, making more subtle, covert actions more likely. The movie does actually address this. They comment on the cost of space travel when the Emperor's delegation reaches Caladan, and then later the Baron talks about how much the move cost him and the need to sell a lot of spice, but slowly so they don't tank the price. It's there...the film just doesn't spoonfeed the audience.

Yeah the Baron had to store up Spice and sell off most of his reserve. In short he put all his eggs in one basket to re-take Arrakis in one move. He couldn't afford a long war and he couldn't normally afford to make such a move without the Emperor's blessing and support - otherwise he'd have been undone.

Atreides figured they'd get a world scoured and in need of investment to restore to functional profitability and a lot of traps and sabotage and a long period of the Harkonans trying to make Arrakis not work for the Atreides. Leto figured that the Baron would try and cripple the spice mining so that Atreides would look incapable and then the Emperor would give Arrakis back. In part that's why Leto wanted close and tight ties with the Fremen as is saw that as his gateway to locking the Harkonans out of that kind of approach. Couple that with his own capable military and he should have been able to hold the planet.





Also a point not raised in the new film is that, in the book, the Harkonans also use ancient artillery tech in their attack on the city. They couldn't use atomics but they did use artillery to shell the city heavily which was a move not expected as artillery wasn't a tech much used (because most cities have a huge shield that protects them and negates artillery working).


Plus don't forget, at the end of it all the Baron has to mine Arrakis heavily to recoup his massive gambled investment. He might destroy the Atreides in one move, but he might also destroy his own Great House in the process

 Orlanth wrote:

 RaptorusRex wrote:
I probably agree with you on some issues, but that's neither here nor there. I don't agree here. Leto is a man in a bind. He's trying to do the right thing, the honorable thing, but the Emperor is sending him to his death. He knows this and is trying in vain to wriggle out of the bullfight, the senseless slaughter (bulls are a big motif in the film). Not understanding this is overlooking some of the book's best themes.

And authoritarian ≠ fascist. The Corrino Empire is neofeudalist, which is authoritarian, but not fascist.

Leto is not Lawful Stupid, if he did not think he could hold Arrakis he would not have gone.

I don't think he is lawful stupid, but I also don't think he thought he could actually hold Arrakis.

His bind is that to not accept the job is more or less treason. It's a weird political thing with the emperor. He is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. What he does with Arrakis is the making the best plans he can with a bad situation he is forced into.

 Overread wrote:
Yeah the Baron had to store up Spice and sell off most of his reserve. In short he put all his eggs in one basket to re-take Arrakis in one move. He couldn't afford a long war and he couldn't normally afford to make such a move without the Emperor's blessing and support - otherwise he'd have been undone.

Atreides figured they'd get a world scoured and in need of investment to restore to functional profitability and a lot of traps and sabotage and a long period of the Harkonans trying to make Arrakis not work for the Atreides. Leto figured that the Baron would try and cripple the spice mining so that Atreides would look incapable and then the Emperor would give Arrakis back. In part that's why Leto wanted close and tight ties with the Fremen as is saw that as his gateway to locking the Harkonans out of that kind of approach. Couple that with his own capable military and he should have been able to hold the planet.

Yeah, this.

And really, it was quite a gamble by the Baron. It could have blown up spectacularly and cost him his House (the Emperor almost certainly was prepared to make the Harkonnens the fall guys to preserve himself in the event of failure), and it's possible that Leto didn't see the Baron willing to put that much on the line over a vendetta. As calculating as the Baron is, the drivers were very emotional moreso than rational and perhaps Leto just couldn't see him making that kind of play.

When you consider that the Baron basically had to win the entire battle in one night, or at least within a few days, its an almost insane venture.

There are multiple points of potential failure. Heck if the shield wall had not come down that could have delayed or even stalled the invasion entirely; if the Atreides had proven better in combat/more ready for the attack; if the weather was bad; if anyone in the Spice Guild broke ranks and told Atreides - or anyone of a number of other ranks and groups involved.


If the attack had failed the Sadaukar would have not stuck around to help and risk being identified and reported on to the other Great Houses. The Baron would have been left on a hostile world with his forces exposed and limited resources to afford to bring any more or buy in reinforcements. Even retreat back to his home world would have cost in a staggering amount. It would have likely drained all his coffers and left his house financially ruined for generations.


The Baron put everything into one night of combat and, as is proven through the story, all it took was one small failure and the whole plan was undone. Granted that one failure took a few years to manifest fully, but in the end it did.




Heck even the Emperor risked a lot, if he was seen to be giving aid to one Great House, the others could have risen up against him.

 Overread wrote:
When you consider that the Baron basically had to win the entire battle in one night, or at least within a few days, its an almost insane venture.

There are multiple points of potential failure. Heck if the shield wall had not come down that could have delayed or even stalled the invasion entirely; if the Atreides had proven better in combat/more ready for the attack; if the weather was bad; if anyone in the Spice Guild broke ranks and told Atreides - or anyone of a number of other ranks and groups involved.


If the attack had failed the Sadaukar would have not stuck around to help and risk being identified and reported on to the other Great Houses. The Baron would have been left on a hostile world with his forces exposed and limited resources to afford to bring any more or buy in reinforcements. Even retreat back to his home world would have cost in a staggering amount. It would have likely drained all his coffers and left his house financially ruined for generations.


The Baron put everything into one night of combat and, as is proven through the story, all it took was one small failure and the whole plan was undone. Granted that one failure took a few years to manifest fully, but in the end it did.

Heck even the Emperor risked a lot, if he was seen to be giving aid to one Great House, the others could have risen up against him.

In fairness though Pieter de Vries achieved the impossible, he breached Suk conditioning. Nobody not even Thufir Hawat would see through that and Wellington Yueh was given a free pass throughout the Atriedes holding and was able to not only set up the fall but correspond along the way. Had development occurred the Baron could have postponed or cancelled the venture before committing to a large deployment./ He would have sold much spice but gained a lot of Solaris which he could hold and wait for a better opportunity.

As for the Emperor's risk, it too was great which is why the Sardaukar travelled disguised as Harkonnens. Something I believe neither film properly portrays. The Emperor's deployment was deniable, and was only detected because Duncan Idaho was chad enough to recognise the fighting style. Idaho was a Dinaz grandmaster himself and knew good bladework when he saw it, and knew the assault troops were not Harkonnens.

True there. I forget that the films are very open with the portrayal of the Emperors aid to the Baron. I think its likely because its then easier to justify/explain in the film why the Emperor then comes to Dune itself to do battle.

Ehh - I get that there are questions about the movie. And there would be questions because - I dont think that any 2 -4 hour movie can really encompass the whole universe and the players involved unless it - the movie - is written very very well. I understood the movie mainly because I read the books. The books - as mentioned - provide so much background on the characters and factions and thier interplay, that it would be hard or impossible to fit into a 60-90 minute film or two in this case

I have always enjoyed the books - or at least the original Herbert books - as a real reflection on power: How to get it, how to keep it, who has it, who doesn't, etc..In that context there is a love story, a coming of age story, a revenge story, a expose of governments, corporate governance, monopolies, resource scarcity (spice=oil), tyranny of many forms, religious reformation, and all the seven deadly sins. A complete universe through the life of Paul Atreides (I know...and his line...). It can be argued that he was one of, the first to build out a 'Sci Fi' world so completely using modern society (aka 60's and 70'scold war era). Many of the concepts and structures that he wrote about in the series became a frame work for other 'world building' sci fi and fantasy properties - Battle star, Star wars, GOT, and i would include some parts of 40k lore as well if you read far enough into the series. Anyway - I am a fan.

If the movie was enough to pique your interest - and this thread hasn't killed it - Plus one on the recommendation to read the books that Frank Herbert wrote in the 60's and 70's and watch the surprisingly good syfy series. That will help explain what DV was doing in Part 1 and I assume Part 2.

Oh no if I become the Mahdi then the Freman will destroy the Galaxy in my name. Five minutes later…. “I am the Messiah!”

Late to this game, and while I think Herbert's writing is a wee bit overhyped, I feel I have to defend it a little here. I haven't seen the Villeneuve film, I don't know if this is just how it happens, but in the book it's not quite so cold blooded. As others have touched on, Paul desperately searches his prescient visions throughout the book, since acquiring them. He can see no future where the jihad doesn't happen; even if he dies he becomes a martyr for the cause. The simple event of being thrust among the Fremen starts this ball rolling. It causes him no small amount of angst.

Tome_Keeper wrote:
Ehh - I get that there are questions about the movie. And there would be questions because - I dont think that any 2 -4 hour movie can really encompass the whole universe and the players involved unless it - the movie - is written very very well. I understood the movie mainly because I read the books. The books - as mentioned - provide so much background on the characters and factions and thier interplay, that it would be hard or impossible to fit into a 60-90 minute film or two in this case

I have always enjoyed the books - or at least the original Herbert books - as a real reflection on power: How to get it, how to keep it, who has it, who doesn't, etc..In that context there is a love story, a coming of age story, a revenge story, a expose of governments, corporate governance, monopolies, resource scarcity (spice=oil), tyranny of many forms, religious reformation, and all the seven deadly sins. A complete universe through the life of Paul Atreides (I know...and his line...). It can be argued that he was one of, the first to build out a 'Sci Fi' world so completely using modern society (aka 60's and 70'scold war era). Many of the concepts and structures that he wrote about in the series became a frame work for other 'world building' sci fi and fantasy properties - Battle star, Star wars, GOT, and i would include some parts of 40k lore as well if you read far enough into the series. Anyway - I am a fan.

If the movie was enough to pique your interest - and this thread hasn't killed it - Plus one on the recommendation to read the books that Frank Herbert wrote in the 60's and 70's and watch the surprisingly good syfy series. That will help explain what DV was doing in Part 1 and I assume Part 2.

Tolkien made a fully lived in world before Dune.

We usually hear about how stories don’t focus on the characters and too much on superfluous noise. Why should Dune get a pass on this?

You’re saying the film isn’t enough to learn the moral of the tale or the philosophy. I don’t buy that. Any idea can be conveyed with a cliff notes version. The film likely just presents a clear cut version of events. I am saying those ideas are not very original philosophically. Burke said about the dangers of charismatic men and the mob. People wrote against religion since the enlightenment at least. None of it is inherently mind blowing or providing anything novel. It’s just standard reactionary, “don’t rock the boat.” conservatism. Again, you’re saying the idea and not the presentation is important. But those ideas aren’t inherently good.

IMO the burden of proof for nihilism is higher than for a story with a positive message. If you’re not trying to entertain me then you better have something good to say. I don’t think it has anything interesting to say. I hear this argument all the time in real life and in media. Any writer can make a world that supports his moral message and outlook; it’s not really that insightful.

They’re the least interesting and fun aspects of 40k. 40k owes far more to Tolkien, since it is an space fantasy and pulp sci fi than it does to all the weird and wacky things like Navigators. The only reason people play up the Dune connection over the Tolkien one is a way of proping up the GrimDark image. That because it deviates from the moral message of Tolkien it somehow doesn’t matter that you have Eldar, Orks, a Dark Lord, Balrogs, the notion of a golden age cast down by hubris etc etc

 Vermis wrote:

Oh no if I become the Mahdi then the Freman will destroy the Galaxy in my name. Five minutes later…. “I am the Messiah!”

Late to this game, and while I think Herbert's writing is a wee bit overhyped, I feel I have to defend it a little here. I haven't seen the Villeneuve film, I don't know if this is just how it happens, but in the book it's not quite so cold blooded. As others have touched on, Paul desperately searches his prescient visions throughout the book, since acquiring them. He can see no future where the jihad doesn't happen; even if he dies he becomes a martyr for the cause. The simple event of being thrust among the Fremen starts this ball rolling. It causes him no small amount of angst.

Also, Paul doesn't just take the name Muad'dib. He specifically chooses to be called Paul Muad'dib, retaining his original name which was not something seen in his visions.

Paul is constantly trying to walk a knife edge with regards to his prescience. Follow it just enough to get what he needs, but subvert it just enough to try and nudge the trajectory of the future from the mass bloodshed.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
They’re the least interesting and fun aspects of 40k. 40k owes far more to Tolkien, since it is an space fantasy and pulp sci fi than it does to all the weird and wacky things like Navigators. The only reason people play up the Dune connection over the Tolkien one is a way of proping up the GrimDark image. That because it deviates from the moral message of Tolkien it somehow doesn’t matter that you have Eldar, Orks, a Dark Lord, Balrogs, the notion of a golden age cast down by hubris etc etc

I actually kind of agree with you that Dune is a bit of a trite and hazy polemic; stop making me defend it.

Not just specifically mutated starship navigators and their guild: the concept of a galactic god-emperor; the emperor's super-soldiers, once upon a time plucked from among hardened criminals and deathworld survivors; a galactic empire of humankind that has been stagnating for millenia under a kind of feudal system; holy crusades across the stars; an ancient revolt of/against AI which led to a near-religious ban on it and greater reliance on human abilities; a penchant for sword-fighting in a far future with unimaginable technology; hunter-seekers to hunter-slayers; a secretive sub-civilisation of technical tinkerers and their reknowned planetary base, near-heretical but with enough influence to remain slightly out from under the empire's thumb.

(Oh, and Moorcock: mutating and reality-warping Chaos; Chaos gods; demon weapons; eight-pointed star, etc.)

Yeah, 40k owes frighteningly little to Tolkien, and just about everything to Moorcock (the original anti-Tolkien, move over GRRM) and Dune.

 Vermis wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
They’re the least interesting and fun aspects of 40k. 40k owes far more to Tolkien, since it is an space fantasy and pulp sci fi than it does to all the weird and wacky things like Navigators. The only reason people play up the Dune connection over the Tolkien one is a way of proping up the GrimDark image. That because it deviates from the moral message of Tolkien it somehow doesn’t matter that you have Eldar, Orks, a Dark Lord, Balrogs, the notion of a golden age cast down by hubris etc etc

I actually kind of agree with you that Dune is a bit of a trite and hazy polemic; stop making me defend it.

Not just specifically mutated starship navigators and their guild: the concept of a galactic god-emperor; the emperor's super-soldiers, once upon a time plucked from among hardened criminals and deathworld survivors; a galactic empire of humankind that has been stagnating for millenia under a kind of feudal system; holy crusades across the stars; an ancient revolt of/against AI which led to a near-religious ban on it and greater reliance on human abilities; a penchant for sword-fighting in a far future with unimaginable technology; hunter-seekers to hunter-slayers; a secretive sub-civilisation of technical tinkerers and their reknowned planetary base, near-heretical but with enough influence to remain slightly out from under the empire's thumb.

(Oh, and Moorcock: mutating and reality-warping Chaos; Chaos gods; demon weapons; eight-pointed star, etc.)

40k is a Space Fantasy inspired by Warhammer Fantasy Battle. Which is in turn inspired by D&D and ultimately Tolkien. That the Imperium of Man is just The Empire of Man in space. To me that’s just a superficial starting with a space fantasy setting and then just lifting a few ideas from Dune. Which IMO aren’t really integral to 40k or Dune wasn’t the first to think of these things.

40k is about the models and intensely visual. If you look at a Space Marine you’re far more likely to think Brotherhood of Steel. Classic pulp sci fi ideas of knights in space fighting that go back a long way. The Sardaukar and Fremen look and fight nothing like Space Marines. You have regular baseline humans with daggers and energy shields. Whereas Space Marines are actually genetically engineered with power armour and guns. Some also carry lightsabers. Plus the historical point of reference isn’t Arabs like with the Fremen or whatever the hell the Saudaukar are meant to be which is closer to Skitari. Instead it’s the Roman Legions, Vikings, Knights Templar, Space Vampires etc etc. They haven’t visually tried to recreate the Fremen or Saudaukar and the lore comparison is not even the most central or recognisable component. The Legion and Chapter identity which is what people actually care and talk about.

Likewise the God Emperor. You’re completely ignoring the change in bringing the Christian elements in. Dune is stupid because it’s not a religion. They follow him like Goblins following the biggest worm they see. They have no reason to think there is anything religious about Paul and frankly I don’t know why you would think that. Whereas with the God Emperor it’s about protecting your immortal soul because it’s Christianity satire. Likewise, the idea of a God like figure dying for his people; comes from the Bible.

Plus the notion of an Empire being corrupted by religion is absolutely not an original idea from Dune. At the least you’re talking Edward Gibbons Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire which lays this out perfectly. It’s an obvious analogy for what happens with the Imperium. Golden age under the Legions then a slide into the desolation of religious superstition which dogs the state.

Pretty sure the bible talks about Demons as well…

I d say the rest is deep lore. The revolt of the Ironmen is lifted from Dune but it’s not integral to the story of the game. I am not sure why you would rate that high but the Eldar being Tolkien Elves isn’t an obvious inspiration.

I wouldn’t credit Dune with inspiring Warhammer and where the writers clearly did copy them they need not have bothered. You could easily use other sources to come to a similar world with the Space Fantasy brief.

I wouldn't credit just one source.

Also don't forget 40K came out of an era of sci-fi influences of a similar concepts so part of it was just the creative melting pot of its time. Much like how a lot of fantasy stuff coming out right now is heavily influenced by many similar themes including World of Warcraft.


You get big influencers - Lord of the Rings being one of the biggest clear ones - but you also get a general wave of creative styles in certain markets that run through things. These waves are often something invisible at the time but are often much clearer as a style/theme/idea when you look back on a previous generation and can see how multiple creator groups were working with similar inspirations.

40K has bits of everything from all here and there. Some bits Lord of the Rings; some bits Dune; some bits religious; some bits British Thatcher years; some bits end of the world apoc style etc.....

You don’t think the God-Emperor was inspired by the prescient, deified God-Emperor of Dune?

chaos0xomega wrote:Yeah, 40k owes frighteningly little to Tolkien, and just about everything to Moorcock (the original anti-Tolkien, move over GRRM) and Dune.

Let us not forget Nemesis the Warlock, either.

http://theleadpile.blogspot.com/2014/06/nemesis-warlock-vs-40k.html

@Totalwar1402 I don't know what to tell you. I just looked at the length of your last post, and thought you're awfully convinced despite having seen only the first movie and apparently, none of the books.

Tolkien's influence on 40K: Orcs. Elves. Dwarves. Via WFB. In spaaace.

Totalwar1402 wrote:Likewise the God Emperor. You’re completely ignoring the change in bringing the Christian elements in. Dune is stupid because it’s not a religion. They follow him like Goblins following the biggest worm they see. They have no reason to think there is anything religious about Paul and frankly I don’t know why you would think that. Whereas with the God Emperor it’s about protecting your immortal soul because it’s Christianity satire. Likewise, the idea of a God like figure dying for his people; comes from the Bible.

Trying hard to word this in a useful, friendly way:

if you think there are no religious or specifically Christian elements to Dune, you know absolutely nothing about it, and you need to go learn the basics before pontificating further.

Seriously, the religious elements are so prevalent and overwhelming that my revised edition of the first book has some responses from Herbert to critics and fans- the first question is 'Are you starting a cult?' (Answer was 'God, no!')

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
You don’t think the God-Emperor was inspired by the prescient, deified God-Emperor of Dune?

He’s inspired by Karl Franz as the Imperium is just a sci fi version of the Emperor in Warhammer Fantasy Battle. They then added a Jesus subtext where he sacrificed himself to save his people but oh no he’s actually on the Golden Throne. To that they basically bolted a name in the old lore from Dune from what’s a really distant figure removed from the business of your battles with Space Marines. The joke being he’s just a psyker and humans are dumb to think otherwise. That’s basically how it’s put across in the 3rd Ed rulebook.

In newer lore, well, the Emperor is basically God, big G son, but powered by the power of the warp, technology and the worship of the people of the Imperium. No different than Sigmar in AoS being powered by worship but less questionable human sacrifice to keep it going. With reference to a previous Golden Age where he was a 12 foot dude with a flaming sword who stole fire from the Gods. In Dune the idea is that they falsely believe like a bunch of DND goblins that this powerful dude is God. Whereas, no that doesn’t really work anymore in 40k. Too many miracles. Too many saints. The world operating on the basis of belief, ie bottom up instead of top down instead of Dune completely changes the dynamic.

Basically they are completely different characters apart from copying the name. You could say a bunch of DND goblins worshipping a Spider is a parallel to Dune because oh they’re like the Fremen and it’s a metaphor for religion being the opium of the masses. Thats not really the same story because Paul lies to the Fremen and is an active participant in the story. Whereas the Emperor is an idea like the Christian God to people in the Imperium. So there is no charismatic leader. The Emperor is simply this twisted and broken notion of hope in the story. Poisoned, tainted and akin to an Aztec sun god that needs blood to keep the next sunrise. But that is wildly different than centering the plot on Paul manipulating the Fremen and the active plot of the Witches to set up the God Emperor in Dune. The Emperor in 40k is an idea and actually a religion; not a character playing everybody for fools. Indeed in the Horus Heresy this is a major plot point that there is no scheme for the Emperor to become a God and most of followers with actual power do not believe this. Whereas in Dune the men with power impose this from the top down onto an unwilling Galaxy without even a shred of actual reason to believe he’s the messiah.

I’ll use an example. Scarlet Witch in House of M is not a God. Yes, she can remake all of reality in the known multiverse with a word. That’s impressive, but it’s not the same thing as divinity. It’s also a lot more impressive than any of the “God Emperors” in Dune BTW and I cannot take that seriously. What makes Sigmar, Allarielle, Khorne or the God Emperor actual deities is because their power is derived from the veneration and worship of their followers. There is a clear, almost social contract established with rules and which confirms them to be operating on a higher level that is ordained. Khorne has to reward his followers with power and is in turn empowered by that. This makes him a God along with all the ritual stuff which actually works and because it works isn’t superstition. Whereas Scarlet Witch, oh it’s just Chaos Magic and she gets her power on loan from Cthon. That doesn’t make her a God. Likewise Dune, Paul is to quote him “a benegeserit freak” and just a naughty boy; not the messiah.

Basically you have a name and that’s it. Totally different story and you’re comparing a character in Paul or Leto to an idea. The anti religious element is too generic for Dune to take any credit for that.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:Likewise the God Emperor. You’re completely ignoring the change in bringing the Christian elements in. Dune is stupid because it’s not a religion. They follow him like Goblins following the biggest worm they see. They have no reason to think there is anything religious about Paul and frankly I don’t know why you would think that. Whereas with the God Emperor it’s about protecting your immortal soul because it’s Christianity satire. Likewise, the idea of a God like figure dying for his people; comes from the Bible.

Trying hard to word this in a useful, friendly way:

if you think there are no religious or specifically Christian elements to Dune, you know absolutely nothing about it, and you need to go learn the basics before pontificating further.

Seriously, the religious elements are so prevalent and overwhelming that my revised edition of the first book has some responses from Herbert to critics and fans- the first question is 'Are you starting a cult?' (Answer was 'God, no!')

Which are a dime a dozen and have been for three hundred years.

I am saying it’s a crude cookie cutter caricature that has very little to do with actual religious belief. 40k is a crude charicature that actually does criticise religious belief. Dune boils down to Goblins worshipping power and religion being the Opium of the people. Yes, it’s a very thought provoking and useful take on the subject. I can take it very seriously that they think Paul is a God because he does so many impressive things.

I think the story is a conservative polemic intended to criticise any complaint, however mild or regardless of the cause, against the status quo and establishment. By framing people who want that as opening Pandora’s box and unleashing ruin. I think it’s far broader than just criticising religion or these specific circumstances.

Karl Franz is either a doddering old man or a gifted diplomat depending on your era of fandom. He is nothing at all like the GEOM. the throne scenes from Ian Watson’s Inquisitor trilogy reads quite a bit like GEOD, as well as other things.

If you haven’t read any of the Dune books past the first, you’re missing most of the obvious influences. Maybe just pick up GEOD, or at the very least binge Quinn’s Ideas’ videos about the Dune series on YouTube.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Karl Franz is either a doddering old man or a gifted diplomat depending on your era of fandom. He is nothing at all like the GEOM. the throne scenes from Ian Watson’s Inquisitor trilogy reads quite a bit like GEOD, as well as other things.

If you haven’t read any of the Dune books past the first, you’re missing most of the obvious influences. Maybe just pick up GEOD, or at the very least binge Quinn’s Ideas’ videos about the Dune series on YouTube.

I’ve seen a few of QuinnsIdeas videos already so I know about Leto and him being Worm Stalin.

Leto is an actual character in the series. At one point complaining to the Sister of Battle analogue that “you know I am not a God” and she don’t understand that so just says “yes, of course God Emperor”. Which is, you know, really deep and compelling writing. Whereas the God Emperor is this mysterious figure removed from everything and operates more akin to an actual God in the story. So a Sister of Battle is actually having her faith tested by adversity instead of a “freak” that she has no reason to think is a God tell her this isn’t the case and she’s just dumb dumb.

Like there is some dumb stuff in Dune and it totally undercuts what he’s trying to sell. With what he’s trying to sell being a piece of conservative literature.

A pic or gif only with no context text is spam, please dont do that.

That Owen Wilson picture really nails it. Owen Wilson is the actor from all those movies where he talks about something he doesn’t understand, makes the whole audience feel embarrassed for him, and the. When given the chance to come clean and grow as a character he instead doubles down on the cringe.

Don’t be an Owen Wilson character.


Dune has its flaws. I consider the first book especially overrated. But, man, you’re really stretching to invent new flaws no one who’s read the book ever found.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
That Owen Wilson picture really nails it. Owen Wilson is the actor from all those movies where he talks about something he doesn’t understand, makes the whole audience feel embarrassed for him, and the. When given the chance to come clean and grow as a character he instead doubles down on the cringe.

Don’t be an Owen Wilson character.


Dune has its flaws. I consider the first book especially overrated. But, man, you’re really stretching to invent new flaws no one who’s read the book ever found.

Well I am not going to heap praise on something I don’t like. If I don’t like the book I ain’t picking it up and two films and a few YouTube videos is enough to get the gist of it.

If you follow the thread I am only posting today because others posted here recently. So it’s a bit odd for you to turn around now and say you’re not interested in my reasoning for the opinion all of a sudden. You’ve asked for my opinion. So I talk about why I don’t like Dune and resent it being compared to 40k which I do like. That’s the context.

WHFB isn't really indpired by Tolkien either. Sure it has the trappings of it - elves, orcs, dwarves, and dragons, but that doesn't automatically make something Tolkienesque. They no doubt borrowed elements of Tolkien, but in the whole Warhdmmer (in all its incarnations) isnot very Tolkien-like - theres more to Tolkien than ofcs, elves, dwarves, and dragons, after all. The underlying themes and messaging is wholly absent/often contrary to Tolkiens own.... but I digress

40k is much more inspired by Dune than Tolkien. At least so far that the Tolkien influences have been through a few layers of distillation. The Dune influences are much more direct and overt. The Tolkien ones are because 40k is riffing off something else that happens to riff off Tolkien.

Elves that look like tall, beautiful, elegant humanoids with pointy ears are 100% Tolkien elves. That image of elves originated with him. Prior to that, Elves were seen more like Leprechauns or non-orky goblins. Small trickster fairy people. Sure, the culture and background of WHFB and 40k Elves/Eldar have little to nothing in common with Tolkien, but the visual aesthetic is a definite connection.

The God Emperor is definitely a dune inspiration. Karl Franz has some connection too, but it is minimal. Yes, the Emperor in 40k is much more godlike than the one in Dune with some additional Christian elements, but nothing says you can't have multiple sources. But the primary one is definitely Dune.

Between Mutant Navigators, a technological civilization so ancient that technology and science have become intertwined with superstition and faith, biological computer's used to the exclusion of mechanical ones due to an ancient war vs an AI rebellion.

The link is undeniable. Yes, lots of stuff has had influences on 40k, but Dune is one of the bigger ones.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

I am saying it’s a crude cookie cutter caricature that has very little to do with actual religious belief. 40k is a crude charicature that actually does criticise religious belief. Dune boils down to Goblins worshipping power and religion being the Opium of the people. Yes, it’s a very thought provoking and useful take on the subject. I can take it very seriously that they think Paul is a God because he does so many impressive things.

Dune doesn't boil down to either of those things. I don't know what random youtube videos you watched, but they taught you nothing of worth.
Also, and this is kind of important to any discussion of religion, a messiah is NOT a god. Nor is being a messiah about being 'impressive.' In this particular context, its about being a sacrifice.

I think the story is a conservative polemic intended to criticise any complaint, however mild or regardless of the cause, against the status quo and establishment. By framing people who want that as opening Pandora’s box and unleashing ruin.

You're arguing from ignorance. The entire arc of the books (and even the first book by its lonesome) is about upending the status quo and establishment. To use the Pandora's box metaphor, it is literally about chasing the hope inside the box and avoiding ruin. It can (and does) get very ugly along the way, but the 'Golden Path' is about getting out from under the thumb of conservative polemics.

active plot of the Witches to set up the God Emperor in Dune.

And if you were actually familiar with the books, you'd know that the God-Emperor was someone they hated and not even vaguely the result they wanted. They did not at all 'set up' the God-Emperor. That he took the throne is a complete and utter fail state for the Bene Gesserit.

Honestly the fact that you're trying to understand Dune through properties that came after Dune and were either inspired by it or irrelevant (40k and Fallout) is really twisting your understanding. Its like watching someone try to rationalize Roman history by only talking about Tzarist Russia.