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NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

Aecus Decimus wrote:

I'm so glad AMG discontinued support for Armada to make room for this dumpster fire of a game.

:-(

I miss continued Armada support. It took time to grow on me, but what an amazing system. Why this game exists while Armada is functionally dead is baffling.

In the pursuit for more money, AMG probably felt like a new skirmish game they built from the ground up wad a better path forward than a fleet scale game they inherented?

 bbb wrote:
In the pursuit for more money, AMG probably felt like a new skirmish game they built from the ground up wad a better path forward than a fleet scale game they inherented?

Assuming it's a successful game, which is a somewhat optimistic assumption given its absurd "saturday morning superhero cartoon" concept and that its closest FFG equivalent already failed. I think it's more that any financial arguments are a rationalization for AMG rejecting anything that doesn't fit their preferred MCP style of play. They didn't want the Star Wars games so now Armada is gone, X-Wing is butchered with the new devs openly saying "you're playing the game wrong so we're going to make it into the game we want you to play", and now their first new release is MCP with Star Wars miniatures.

Every miniatures game is absurd. Taking offense to a "Saturday morning cartoon" spin on a miniatures game is bizarre. We're talking about playing with toy soldiers not solving world hunger.

The market for skirmish games is larger than fleet scale games. MCP has proven that AMG can take an existing property with a deep roster of characters and make a profitable skirmish scale tabletop game out of it. They're going with their strengths in the pursuit of profitability which ensures continued funding to stay in business.

 bbb wrote:
Every miniatures game is absurd. Taking offense to a "Saturday morning cartoon" spin on a miniatures game is bizarre. We're talking about playing with toy soldiers not solving world hunger.

Do you honestly not see a thematic difference between MCP and Kill Team? Or between MCP and a Napoleonic miniatures game?

The market for skirmish games is larger than fleet scale games.

Theoretically. Remember that FFG's skirmish-scale miniatures game was largely a failure and was abandoned once Legion provided an alternative ground combat game in the Star Wars setting. AMG is betting on their re-skin of MCP succeeding where FFG already failed to find a market.

MCP has proven that AMG can take an existing property with a deep roster of characters and make a profitable skirmish scale tabletop game out of it. They're going with their strengths in the pursuit of profitability which ensures continued funding to stay in business.

That's certainly the polite way to say "AMG is only able to make one game so they're going to make a re-skin of that one game no matter how bad a fit it is for the lore".

Aecus Decimus wrote:

 bbb wrote:
Every miniatures game is absurd. Taking offense to a "Saturday morning cartoon" spin on a miniatures game is bizarre. We're talking about playing with toy soldiers not solving world hunger.

Do you honestly not see a thematic difference between MCP and Kill Team? Or between MCP and a Napoleonic miniatures game?

They are all games played with toy soldiers. Nothing about the theme makes any of them more or less absurd than another game. The Saturday morning slant is no different than a serious historical slant. Just themes for games. All games are absurd no matter how "serious" the themes or mechanics are. They are entertainment and diversions from the drudgery of life.

MCP has proven that AMG can take an existing property with a deep roster of characters and make a profitable skirmish scale tabletop game out of it. They're going with their strengths in the pursuit of profitability which ensures continued funding to stay in business.

That's certainly the polite way to say "AMG is only able to make one game so they're going to make a re-skin of that one game no matter how bad a fit it is for the lore".

MCP is a fun skirmish game with enjoyable mechanics. They've repeatedly said Shatterpoint is not a SW reskin of MCP. My hope is that Shatterpoint is a fun skirmish game with enjoyable mechanics.

Aecus just seems like someone who can't enjoy something unless it's in their VERY narrow view of what makes a game good or presentable.

Can't make everyone happy, nor should you, but within the realm of this game, I think the path they've selected forward has potential to be enjoyable to a larger portion of gamers, so long as we don't have gatekeeping jagoffs harping down people's throats.

I for one welcome our new skirmish overlords

EDIT: For real tho, I'm sorry that you feel the way you do Aecus. I hope you can find something fun beyond this game, I just ask that you leave the issue alone if you are only going to sit there and attack the "Saturday morning cartoon" 'aspect' of the game.

 rybackstun wrote:
EDIT: For real tho, I'm sorry that you feel the way you do Aecus. I hope you can find something fun beyond this game, I just ask that you leave the issue alone if you are only going to sit there and attack the "Saturday morning cartoon" 'aspect' of the game.

I have plenty of fun, I don't know why defenders of bad products always have to fall back on "U DONT KNOW WHAT FUN IS" in a desperate attempt to silence criticism. But I'll stop attacking AMG and their superhero nonsense when they stop publishing superhero nonsense. Until then the hacks that butchered X-Wing and cancelled Armada to make room for this dumpster fire of a game will continue to get honest feedback on their lack of skills and poor quality work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bbb wrote:
They are all games played with toy soldiers. Nothing about the theme makes any of them more or less absurd than another game. The Saturday morning slant is no different than a serious historical slant. Just themes for games. All games are absurd no matter how "serious" the themes or mechanics are. They are entertainment and diversions from the drudgery of life.

If you don't understand thematic differences between games and genres I don't really know what to say. Maybe for you everything is just silly toys but for many of us it isn't.

They've repeatedly said Shatterpoint is not a SW reskin of MCP.

And yet everything they've said about this game indicates that it is, if not a literal re-skin of the exact MCP rules, a very MCP-like superhero brawl game with some superficial Star Wars aesthetics tacked on.

"Bad Products"

The game hasn't even shown enough mechanics to be seen as good or bad.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

 bbb wrote:
They are all games played with toy soldiers. Nothing about the theme makes any of them more or less absurd than another game. The Saturday morning slant is no different than a serious historical slant. Just themes for games. All games are absurd no matter how "serious" the themes or mechanics are. They are entertainment and diversions from the drudgery of life.

If you don't understand thematic differences between games and genres I don't really know what to say. Maybe for you everything is just silly toys but for many of us it isn't.

If you don't understand the inherent absurdity of all games and genres I don't really know what to say. Maybe for you silly toys are everything, but for many of us they aren't.

"Saturday morning" Star Wars skirmish game is no less absurd than gritty-nuanced-reality recreation Star Wars fleet action. We're playing in imaginary settings with made up rules and lumps of plastic/metal that we pretend represent made up characters. Even "historical" games are pure fantasy once you deviate from set historical events. That's the nature of all games. Fantasy. Escapism. They can be influenced by different genres and themes, but they are all diversions from everyday life.

 bbb wrote:
"Saturday morning" Star Wars skirmish game is no less absurd than gritty-nuanced-reality recreation Star Wars fleet action.

Not different at all, except that one is the canon version of Star Wars that everyone is familiar with while the other is a bizarre alternate version created because the only thing AMG cares about is superhero brawl games. Are you sure you understand what the word "absurd" means?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
"Bad Products"

The game hasn't even shown enough mechanics to be seen as good or bad.

We have AMG's own commentary on their goals for the game and those comments are very clear about it being a bad game that will have the same flaws as their botched version of X-Wing.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

 bbb wrote:
"Saturday morning" Star Wars skirmish game is no less absurd than gritty-nuanced-reality recreation Star Wars fleet action.

Not different at all, except that one is the canon version of Star Wars that everyone is familiar with while the other is a bizarre alternate version created because the only thing AMG cares about is superhero brawl games. Are you sure you understand what the word "absurd" means?

absurd - adjective - wildly unreasonable, illogical, or inappropriate
"The notion that a fictional setting involving physics defying technology and space wizards should be taken seriously is absurd."

Star Wars 'canon' is more absurd than Star Wars itself.

Hey, look, I enjoy Star Wars, but it is not something to be taken seriously. It's an intellectual property that's been around for 46 years of humanity's approximately 6,000 years since we can currently best determine writing to have started. Its creator sold it to a mouse. Over the last 46 years there have been hundreds if not thousands of stories told within that setting. The 'canon' keeps changing. I used to care about canon, but then I realized this is all made up nonsense. It's fun nonsense (at times), but it is all just pretend and inconsequential. Like what parts of it you like. Don't like the parts you don't like. It all ultimately doesn't matter.

I just see a very angry person posting angry things because someone else is doing things in a manner that he wouldn't do them.

Both here and in N&B.

 Azazelx wrote:
I just see a very angry person posting angry things because someone else is doing things in a manner that he wouldn't do them.

Both here and in N&B.

Fascinating coincidence given the fact that one of my main reasons for disliking AMG is how they came into X-Wing, openly said "you're having fun the wrong way and we're going to make you play the game our way", and proceeded to wreck the game in pursuit of making it more like MCP.

 bbb wrote:

Star Wars 'canon' is more absurd than Star Wars itself.

Star Wars "canon" includes Nice Guy Boba Fett, the OJ Simpson Car Chase In Space, The Last Jedi's version of Luke and Jar Jar Binks. And that's entirely disregarding everything in the EU and Legends.

Star Wars canon ceased to mean much decades ago, and really hasn't improved overall




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aecus Decimus wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
I just see a very angry person posting angry things because someone else is doing things in a manner that he wouldn't do them.
Both here and in N&B.

Fascinating coincidence given the fact that one of my main reasons for disliking AMG is how they came into X-Wing, openly said "you're having fun the wrong way and we're going to make you play the game our way", and proceeded to wreck the game in pursuit of making it more like MCP.

I stopped buying (and following) X-Wing when FFG Said "please give us hundreds of dollars for new cardboard if you want to keep using your thousands of dollars of toys in the new version of our game". I still play 1st ed with my group and it works fine for us. If you play competitively, or pick up games in stores or tournaments, it's clearly unfortunate if AMG is changing the game again and I'd agree that it likely sucks.

I bought most of the stuff for Armada, and I'm overall happy with the 4 big factions. I prefer a SW game to feel more or less film-complete as opposed to having it be added to like 40k's endless additions of new things that were really there all along!

Could be much worse, getting back into comics is a roller coaster.

But I think the minis for this look great, and as long as the game is fun.
And the setting was mostly wanted I feel talking to people ate clubs and shop about legion.
For legion there was lots of potential players who where just waiting for specific characters that never come, so never wanted to play.
And not even characters that I think they where wrong to wait for.

And the minis look so good! Ahh I want them.

Aecus Decimus wrote:
it's that you can have teams which are impossible within the scope of the lore Vader with his rebel trooper buddies teaming up with Luke and some bounty hunters to fight Anakin and battle droids paired with Jango Fett and some clones is just plain stupid. As is the entire framing of the game as a superhero and sidekicks vs. another superhero and their sidekicks, which is thematically ridiculous for a Star Wars game.

and Vader teaming up with Luke is your big "Lore" problem with this scenario?
not Vader fighting a younger himself?

and for the game itself, put all the Heroes in a Hero focus team game fits the Star Wars setting from the shows and movies much better than having them pushed into Legion were they make not much sense at all

and the setting itself is a Saturday morning cartoon, Rebels, Clone Wars, The Clone Wars, Ewoks

 kodos wrote:


and the setting itself is a Saturday morning cartoon, Rebels, Clone Wars, The Clone Wars, Ewoks

You forgot Droids!

What part of Legion doesn't make sense? Have you seen the movies? There's no shortage of large battle scenes with the heroes mixed in.


Vader teaming up with Yoda to fight Anakin etc is in no way logical to the movies or shows, it is however exactly what you'd see in a shovelware gacha mobile game.

 Azazelx wrote:

I stopped buying (and following) X-Wing when FFG Said "please give us hundreds of dollars for new cardboard if you want to keep using your thousands of dollars of toys in the new version of our game". I still play 1st ed with my group and it works fine for us. If you play competitively, or pick up games in stores or tournaments, it's clearly unfortunate if AMG is changing the game again and I'd agree that it likely sucks.

such things are only working if GW is doing them, hence why trying to copy the success from GW by copying the GW model of Edition changes does not work well with other companies

but given that X-Wing 2.0 did not really work out well anyway, the changes from AMG are better received by those who did not like the switch from 1E to 2.0, where those heavily into 2.0 oppose 2.5 in the beginning (mainly because the community did not see a need for a change)
the competitive scene itself is more happy with 2.5 now for the better balance and having more options to win now
that the game is now again focused on named pilots rather than generic ones is something people like and don't like (a lot of 1E players like that more) and is better received with the casual players who got into the game because of the named pilots in the first place

 bbb wrote:

 kodos wrote:
and the setting itself is a Saturday morning cartoon, Rebels, Clone Wars, The Clone Wars, Ewoks

You forgot Droids!

that one never aired here, so have never seen it

Billicus wrote:
What part of Legion doesn't make sense? Have you seen the movies? There's no shortage of large battle scenes with the heroes mixed in.

and what have the "heroes" done during that battles?
even in clone wars the "heroes" focus on commando and "side" projects rather than doing the battle itself and when people are asking to put more heroes into that game and make those stronger so that the focus shifts to Luke fighting Vader rather than troopers fighting each other

if someone wants a game that is all about Luke fighting Vader, Shatterpoint is the better place (no need for a Platoon level game if you want "Herohammer")


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Billicus wrote:
Vader teaming up with Yoda to fight Anakin etc is in no way logical to the movies or shows, it is however exactly what you'd see in a shovelware gacha mobile game.

yeah, so first of all remove the possibility of Vader fighting Anakin, than Vader fighting Vader and young Obi-Wan fighting Vader
should not be there in the first place as that kills the lore, than we can talk about Vader teaming up with Yoda (should only be able to do it with Luke if the other player brings Palpatine)

Apple fox wrote:
Could be much worse, getting back into comics is a roller coaster.

But I think the minis for this look great, and as long as the game is fun.
And the setting was mostly wanted I feel talking to people ate clubs and shop about legion.
For legion there was lots of potential players who where just waiting for specific characters that never come, so never wanted to play.
And not even characters that I think they where wrong to wait for.

And the minis look so good! Ahh I want them.

oh, I gave up on the idea of getting back into comics a long, long time ago. Ben Reilly? Mephisto & Mary-Jane? I noped right out and stayed right out, so the MCU being something I could mostly enjoy through Phases 1-3 was a lovely surprise.

Legion being an arbitrarily different scale to IA with Restic minis meant I never bothered, so a new HIPS skirmish game sounds good to me, and not being in the same scale as Legion I get would be annoying, but it doesn't mean anything to me personally. So based on my own "play with small group" perspective I don't have an issue with Shatterpoint being a new game to buy into.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:

but given that X-Wing 2.0 did not really work out well anyway, the changes from AMG are better received by those who did not like the switch from 1E to 2.0, where those heavily into 2.0 oppose 2.5 in the beginning (mainly because the community did not see a need for a change)
the competitive scene itself is more happy with 2.5 now for the better balance and having more options to win now
that the game is now again focused on named pilots rather than generic ones is something people like and don't like (a lot of 1E players like that more) and is better received with the casual players who got into the game because of the named pilots in the first place

Fair enough - I honestly have no intention of spending big on buying new cardboard for 2.0 or 2.5 or 2.75, so I have absolutely no dog in that fight - hopefully they can turn the game into something that suits the most people while alienating as few as possible. I'm personally already noped out.

As for the whole Luke & Vader vs Anakin & Yoda thing - it all depends on who you play and how you play with them. I give no feths about competitive scenes or tournaments, but "the lore" has never mattered in those situations in almost any game, except perhaps MESBG when they required each player to bring one "good" and one "evil" force. If you're playing with Randos, you get whatever you get. If playing with friends (as I do) you can make whatever informal rules you like for force composition, era or anything else you'd like to..

yeah, it is as simple as that

if you play with your group at home, and you decide to play according to the lore, there is no problem

if you play competitive, the lore is not important as you know that there will be mirror matches before you get there (and from the previews the lore-matching teams will be better for that)

and if you group goes with a "bring what you have" style of gaming, you also know this in advance

so it is only about going into a store and playing against random people, and here I have to say that people ignoring the lore because they think it is cooler the other way is the least of the problems that can come up

 Azazelx wrote:

I bought most of the stuff for Armada, and I'm overall happy with the 4 big factions. I prefer a SW game to feel more or less film-complete as opposed to having it be added to like 40k's endless additions of new things thar were really there all along - honest!

My big disappointment with AMG killing Armada is that the clone wars factions feel unfinished, but would only need a few releases to be in a much more complete state. A second squadron pack for the Republic and iconic ships like the lucrehulk and droid landing crafts would make me happy.

Re shatterpoint, I have zero interest and rue the day AMG were forced to take on FFG's big 3 Star Wars games. But I'm happy that FFG and the original developers were able to make 3 good games with enough content to last for years.

Yeah, to me at least, Armada isn't perfect but we got most of it - and in a lot of ways I prefer it to be this way than to devole into a Warhammer-like endless procession of newly made-up gak - or even an X-Wing-like endless procession of repaints for the sake of selling some new cards & profiles.

Aecus Decimus wrote:

I have plenty of fun, I don't know why defenders of bad products always have to fall back on "U DONT KNOW WHAT FUN IS" in a desperate attempt to silence criticism. But I'll stop attacking AMG and their superhero nonsense when they stop publishing superhero nonsense. Until then the hacks that butchered X-Wing and cancelled Armada to make room for this dumpster fire of a game will continue to get honest feedback on their lack of skills and poor quality work.

And yet there you go on other threads, defending GW to the hilt. A company that probably has the worst rules out there. As for "But I'll stop attacking AMG and their superhero nonsense when they stop publishing superhero nonsense", seems odd from a person that seems to love GW and it's fascination with OP hero characters. Sheesh.

Seriously, why are the "GW *is* the H-H-Hobby" types so hateful towards other games. If you don't like them, give them a miss. Is it a fear that some of your fellow GW'ers will leave the cult and find a new game making your purchases less relevant? I really don't get the hatred.

Apple fox wrote:
And the minis look so good! Ahh I want them.

I'm not really there yet myself, but I don't think I'd resist a box that comes with Death Troopers.

We'll have to see how that goes. The latest article makes me kind of hopeful that Galactic Civil War models don't have to be far off. As in AMG shouldn't feel compelled to release Clone Wars only before they move on to that. I mean, it's obviously prudent to talk about both eras in an article about force organization and have it in the core rules right from the start, so there is little reason to think so. But you know, I'd just like to read something into it.

 Geifer wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
And the minis look so good! Ahh I want them.

I'm not really there yet myself, but I don't think I'd resist a box that comes with Death Troopers.

We'll have to see how that goes. The latest article makes me kind of hopeful that Galactic Civil War models don't have to be far off. As in AMG shouldn't feel compelled to release Clone Wars only before they move on to that. I mean, it's obviously prudent to talk about both eras in an article about force organization and have it in the core rules right from the start, so there is little reason to think so. But you know, I'd just like to read something into it.

It could be cool to have the game slowly move though the era, but I think at least there is so much in clone wars they may hold off on going head first. Especially if they can fill out legion a bit better as well, take there time to slowly work though it.

Apple fox wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
And the minis look so good! Ahh I want them.

I'm not really there yet myself, but I don't think I'd resist a box that comes with Death Troopers.

We'll have to see how that goes. The latest article makes me kind of hopeful that Galactic Civil War models don't have to be far off. As in AMG shouldn't feel compelled to release Clone Wars only before they move on to that. I mean, it's obviously prudent to talk about both eras in an article about force organization and have it in the core rules right from the start, so there is little reason to think so. But you know, I'd just like to read something into it.

It could be cool to have the game slowly move though the era, but I think at least there is so much in clone wars they may hold off on going head first. Especially if they can fill out legion a bit better as well, take there time to slowly work though it.

I feel like it would be better for them to release GCW stuff sooner rather than later, as it opens up the game to a larger audience.

I know that large portions of the Legion community didn't start until the Clone Wars era starter came out, since that was what they grew up with and wanted to play.

And while anecdotal, I really have zero interest in Shatterpoint until GCW minis come out, and I have heard that statement repeated online in other areas. Will be sticking to the new Special Operations game mode for Legion until that point.

I expect GCW to be a big release wave for year 2, similar to how X-Men was used to launch the second year of MCP. Similarly I suspect the wait will be healthy for the game, since it will let the game find its footing before opening it up to the crowd that Vader will bring to the game.

It might also help to balance out the available darksiders. We're getting Maul, Dooku and and Ventress right off the bat. You can throw in Sidious and you're done. Double up with apprentice Maul, maybe bounty hunter Ventress, and you're out of force wielders, really.

Compared to the long list of Jedi that are at least halfway relevant in Clone Wars episodes (Yoda, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Ahsoka, Aayla Secura, Kit Fisto, Ki-Adi Mundi, Mace Windu, Luminara Unduli, Barriss Offee, Shaak Ti, Plo Koon, Even Piell, Adi Gallia) that's almost nothing, and that's before you double up on characters like Obi-Wan as apprentice to Qui-Gonn, get some other potentially notable Jedi like Qui-Gonn, Yaddle and to bridge the gap Depa Bilaba with apprentice Kanan, and so forth. It's like there's ten thousand Jedi in the galaxy or something.

The Empire at least has a ton of Inquisitors to throw into the mix and once you move past force wielding maniacs you'll probably a good bit of variety there as well.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
And yet there you go on other threads, defending GW to the hilt. A company that probably has the worst rules out there. As for "But I'll stop attacking AMG and their superhero nonsense when they stop publishing superhero nonsense", seems odd from a person that seems to love GW and it's fascination with OP hero characters. Sheesh.

Seriously, why are the "GW *is* the H-H-Hobby" types so hateful towards other games. If you don't like them, give them a miss. Is it a fear that some of your fellow GW'ers will leave the cult and find a new game making your purchases less relevant? I really don't get the hatred.

You really have some selective vision, I have said plenty of negative things about GW's broken rules and the hilariously incompetent authors who write them. Pointing out the absurdity and entitlement in certain price complaints does not mean I defend GW for everything.