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AoC is Armour of Contempt an ability which let (Chaos) Space Marines and Adepta Sororitas with the exception of models with storm shields and one or two Sororitas units reduce the AP of all weapons that hit them by 1. It made AP-1 pretty useless and AP-2 also got a lot worse since that left just Necrons and Custodes as the factions that cared about getting hit by those lower AP values. AP-3 or better didn't care so much because of some math I can go into if you don't already know it and mortal wounds did not care at all so it totally failed to have the desired effect, as most rules changes designed to balance the game instead of reflect fluff tend to do. The fact is that 2W Marines and 3W Terminators are plenty tough already. The rest of the problems in the game are caused by offensive stat creep, which makes everyone, not just power armoured factions die too fast. Stuff like arming a Space Marine with two assault plasma cannons is just silly.

tneva82 wrote:
Why BA?

I like vampires and Sanguinius.

Why are any of you arguing the merrits/flaws of this melta-list?
Its stated purpose was to showcase how much more formerly expensive stuff you can have now that you aren't paying for it.

ccs wrote:
Why are any of you arguing the merrits/flaws of this melta-list?
Its stated purpose was to showcase how much more formerly expensive stuff you can have now that you aren't paying for it.

Its fun to talk about?

I'm afraid I find Tneva's argument somewhat contradictory. The list can apparently be alpha-struck, but don't worry, it can't shoot you. As if LOS-blocking terrain only works one way. Its almost certainly going to be IH, so there is almost certainly going to be no penalty for moving with heavy, the MMs and Las (or Grav, which might be preferable) get reroll 1s to hit regardless of what the Captain is doing, and every model gets a 6+++. You are going to move up behind breachable terrain and then go through it to shoot/charge as appropriate on your turn.

You are looking at 82 models, which by the standards of most tournament lists is towards the high side - so saying they don't have the bodies to take casualties doesn't make sense to me. They also have 19 units, which gives plenty of flexibility. If you have to trade off tactical squads to give you good exchanges with the rest of your army, that's fine. That's how you play an MSU list - or 40k in general.

Before this change you could have run this list (+/- 25 points), but it would have been nothing (including the Devs) but naked guys with bolters. Unsurprisingly it would have hurt nothing and so just be cleared from the table.
Or you could have run the same list with every unit kitted out - but you'd have had to leave behind 3 Tactical Squads, a Sternguard Squad, the Large Terminator Squad, a Bike Squad and two Dev Squads. Which, at 39 models, is approaching half the army. Unsurprisingly 43 Marines would have easily been removed from the table. When you have effectively double its not as easy - even with the loss of AoC. You are combining punchy bling with plenty of bodies.

I can see the argument for it being slow - and somewhat lacking dedicated assault. The Termies however sort of contribute here, with the Teleport Homer opening up some movement options. The DE in me says any force without advance and charge is intrinsically limited. But slower forces do manage, and giving up the IH benefits for say White Scars almost certainly isn't worth it without going down quite a different list. (Assault Intercessors at 17 points for instance may be getting towards being pushed, although BA is probably better than WS unless there is a trick to make them S5.)

Lets go through the list - I already sort of did, but lets do it methodically.

Skip the characters, Smash Captains are going to Smash, the others are going to do their shenanigans, and that's third or fourth tier analyzing anyway with too much variation for chapter etc.

Troops:
Assault Intercessors - The Good got better.
Heavy Intercessors - The OK got Good.
Incursors - The I guess I should got cheaper.
Infiltrators - The I'd rather have Incursors got stuck behind incursors again.
Intercessors - I'm supposed to like these but I don't and I still dont - AGL's need a boost to get these even value with Tacs, and Assault Intercessors.
The Tac Squad getting free upgrades is nice, but its still a meh unit with a bunch of 1.0 Bolters?

Elites:
Aggressors - Happy Birthday to me, Happy Birthday to me.
Assorted Ancients, Champions, and Apothecaries - characters, and skipped beyond - individually minor, collectively big.
Bladeguard - no change.
Centurion Assaults - big price drop - Much cheaper, and still much too slow.
Company Vets - took it in the shorts. No price reduction, no free gear.
Assorted Dreads and Invictors - usually cheaper, but not Jaw Droppingly so
Judiciar - Character and still phased out by better FOC/point choices.
Reivers: Now get Grap and Grav for free, still don't count as Jump Infantry, still lag behind regular Assault Marines
Terminators - Relic,Shooty: Free Heavies, free mix and match of fists, no discounts for Sergeant Swords - Assault: Come to Mama! Free TH/SS or Dual LC. Land Raider price drop folds in - but probably not enough, and Terminator Homer is also not helpful as a shortcut across the board anymore but Teleport Strike, maul (IF you can- probably requires outside assistance), and Homer away has minor potential.
Scout Squad - I think this one is under the radar, underrated. Sniping isn't usually big thing, but 10 snipers in camo cloaks for regular scout price could be tough to pass up.
Servitors - must have been mindlocked next to the Company vets. No price drop, no free gear, still need a rare Techmarine.
Sternguard - easy to see boost. No Price Drop, but all those combi-weapons are free (and currently more than one turn only) with a nice Drop Pod Bomb.
Vanguard Veterans - appear to have gone UP in PPM, Which they gain back in cheaper but not free TH/SS (but not in LCLC)
Veteran Intercessors - A cheaper version of one of the dumbest things you can take at any price. A shooty Troops unit with increased melee stats that loses ObSec.

Fast Attack:
Assault Squad - Free Jump Packs, Eviscerators, and Sgt weapons. Its going to be harder and harder to run out of points before you take one, but not impossible.
Attack Bike Squad - no price change, free weapons, still very hard to justify over other toys unless you're Ravenwing when it's moderately difficult.
Bike Squad - Same PPM, and strangely an upcharge for the Multi-Melta that wasn't on the Attack Bike Squad.
Inceptors - Same PPM, free guns, and come with a built in Deep Strike. Possible Interchangable for the Sternguard Bomb - they'll do it cheaper but less flexibly and without the Drop Pod extra unit for Objectives and LOS.
Invader ATVs. Points drop and free weapons. The weapon swap was already a tough choice - they're almost equal value in different situations. You'll see more from the PPM drop than the free swaps.
First Born Landspeeders, Assorted - No change - and most weapon swaps were replaced by separating data sheets there are better platforms for AssCans and MM
Outrider Squad - Large and attractive Drop in ppm - no customization and still 3-and-Only-3 squad size makes optimization difficult.
Storm Strike Speeders, Assorted: PPM drop, Weapon Options are changed by datasheet not options - price drop makes them better than First Born Land Speeders for almost the same price. First Born are better at hiding as they're smaller but that's about it.
Suppresor Squad - significant price drop on a somewhat insignificant unit. 3-and-only-3 hamstrings the unit more than PPM.

Heavy Support:
Centurion Devs - Minor PPM drop meets MASSIVE free Weapons boost. These guys and Terminator Assault Squads could be the big winners of the free wargear sweepstakes.
Devastator Squad - Significant PPM jump sort of offset by free weapons, until you realize each ablative wound Marine also has the price jump, and you still have to pay extra on top of that for Multi-Meltas - in fact 10 Devs with 4 MM then is cheaper than 10 Devs with 4 MM now.
Eliminators - get it coming and going. Scout Snipers are now cheaper than they were, and not 3-and-only-3 for snipers that need a little more volume of fire to make a difference in a far more contested FOC slot than Elites. At least they get free weapon swaps now - Further review of infiltrating Las Talon Eliminators is recommended.
Eradicators - no change, free weapons swaps for weapon swaps I was already not fond of.
Firestrike Servo Turrets - No Price Change with MASSIVE free weapons should have been giving these another look - still vehicles making cover, hiding, etc a pain.
Gladiator Lancer: Significant Price Drop, Minor freebie addon weapons. Still a big silhouette that doesn't fly or hide with only the one big gun.
Gladiator Reaper: Significant Price Drop, Minor Freebie addons. Big Silhouette that doesn't fly or hide - with an insane number of medium guns.
Gladiator Valiant: Significant Price Drop, Minor Freebie Addons, Big Silhouette - impressive number of big guns but I give the edge to the Lancer.
Hellblasters - Noteworthy PPM drop Weapon swaps were already free and of dubious value.
Hunter/Stalker - no change
Land Raider, Assorted: Significant PPM drop from what I remembered, but apparently, I'm behind the times and that was old. Free MM and Hunter Killer provide modest benefit. Probably still not viable as non flying terrain impeded large metal bawkses while Termies can teleport, and others can Pod.
Predators, Assorted: No PPM change, Free HB sponsons, reduced LC Sponson cost.
Repulsor: Very Large PPM drop from what I remember, and from what it was. Free weapon swaps most of which are dubious or equal. Also large metal bawkses that don't fly and will have difficulty transporting on Planet Pedestrians Only - but also the only option for things like Gravis or 7+ non-gravis Primaris.
Repulsor Executioner: Very Large PPM drop from what I remember, and from what it was. Free weapon swaps most of which are dubious or equal. All the drawbacks of a Repulsor with a transport capacity small enough to negate the Repulsor's bonus there - Not enough room for more than a min-size Gravis squad with no Character support - and if you're not doing Gravis you might as well do an Impulsor and a Lancer for fewer points.
Stalker - No change
Thunderfire Cannon - No change. Still sorely missing it's special rounds for versatility/value
Vinidcator - no change
Whirlwind - no change

Flyers: No change. Stormravens get a tangential boost by the improved value of Terminators.

Fortifications:
Hammerfall Bunker - Ginormous PPM drop. Still zero value if you can't place 1-3 of them on the board long enough to earn back the DET cost as well as the points

Dedicated Transports:
Drop Pods: No change, but changes to Sternguard and Devs could bring back some form of Drop Pod Assault.
Impulsor: Noteworthy but small price drop, free Rooftop Doodads make interesting potential for MSU/Impulsor Spam depending on terrain density, (Hello White Scar Players)
Rihno/Razorback - No change, free weapons for the now relatively pricey Rhino and Razorback

From the Ultramarines:
Mostly characters being Chapter Specific:
Captain Sicarius got a PPM reduction, but he's still as forgettable on the tabletop as he is in the Library because his primary shenanigans target is the Company Vets who got zip.
Chaplain Cassius got a small PPM increase, that was probably needed to keep him in value range for Masters of Sanctity.
Tiggy got a pretty sizable drop in PPM - hes an even better value now.
Chronus - no direct change, but Terminators improving Land Raiders improves Chronus - if you DO go that way, he's a cheap upgrade for the Land Raider
Sgt Telion - No direct change, but sniper scouts just got a whole lot better, and he gets to improve them even more.
Calgar got a sizable PPM reduction - 2+ Death Star Aura Balls with Special character Support are now easier but still unlikely
Uriel Ventris - only slightly better off than Sicarius. As a Primaris Cap, his shenanigan has more likely (already improved) targets and is easier to use but the price drop for Calgar squeezes him out even more.
First born Chapter Ancient, Champion, and Honor Guard - these guys might as well be legends now in both the fluff and the tabletop - the new rules are just too out of phase for when they were released at any price.
Tyrranic War Vets - no change, no options, no point if you're not playing a narrative against Nids because their special is back to Nids only instead of MONSTER etc.
Victrix Honor Guard - - minor price drop, Still missing the Heavy Bolt Pistol that should have been Errata'ed onto them when Indomitus shipped - still with the price drops making Papa/Grandpapa Smurf goodness possible and the slot free Victrix you could get one for each of them. Another interesting but unlikely event - the price drops are probably not enough to get enough of the rest of the layers - Smash units, Apothecaries to heal the Victrix with their 3+ Storm Shields, etc.

From the Dark Angels:
Characters - yadda yadda
Deathwing - minor to no change - most of their change will come from base Terminators - the DW Command Squad did not get a price drop either.
Ravenwing - Black Knights and Black Knight characters all got sizable PPM drops.
Ravenwing Darkshroud and Vengeance: Both got modest PPM drops, and free AssCan upgrades.
Both Aircraft also got sizable PPM decreases.

End result: Deathwing, Ravenwing and Combi-wing armies are still a fun list gimmick, but not as bad off as they were before.


Overall End Result? Melta is both unlikely to be the FOTM of the next edition, and not necessarily the freebie madness that was implied. The stand-out winners at this point appear to be:
Centurion Devs
Firestrikes
Assault Intercessors
Heavy Intercessors
Aggressors
Terminator Assault Squads
Sternguard,
Assault Squads,
Scout Snipers,
Impulsors,
- and possibly Land Raiders, Stormravens, Repulsors (But not Executioners) and Stormstrike Speeders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ccs wrote:
Why are any of you arguing the merrits/flaws of this melta-list?
Its stated purpose was to showcase how much more formerly expensive stuff you can have now that you aren't paying for it.

Free Stuff isn't necessarily Good Stuff. This is sort of like the PL vs Points debate. In fact these new prices are probably the next step to get us switched over. But even in PL where nearly EVERYTHING is free not just most stuff on most units not everything that's free is worth it.

Tyel wrote:

ccs wrote:
Why are any of you arguing the merrits/flaws of this melta-list?
Its stated purpose was to showcase how much more formerly expensive stuff you can have now that you aren't paying for it.

Its fun to talk about?

I'm afraid I find Tneva's argument somewhat contradictory. The list can apparently be alpha-struck, but don't worry, it can't shoot you. As if LOS-blocking terrain only works one way. Its almost certainly going to be IH, so there is almost certainly going to be no penalty for moving with heavy, the MMs and Las (or Grav, which might be preferable) get reroll 1s to hit regardless of what the Captain is doing, and every model gets a 6+++. You are going to move up behind breachable terrain and then go through it to shoot/charge as appropriate on your turn.

You are looking at 82 models, which by the standards of most tournament lists is towards the high side - so saying they don't have the bodies to take casualties doesn't make sense to me. They also have 19 units, which gives plenty of flexibility. If you have to trade off tactical squads to give you good exchanges with the rest of your army, that's fine. That's how you play an MSU list - or 40k in general.

Before this change you could have run this list (+/- 25 points), but it would have been nothing (including the Devs) but naked guys with bolters. Unsurprisingly it would have hurt nothing and so just be cleared from the table.
Or you could have run the same list with every unit kitted out - but you'd have had to leave behind 3 Tactical Squads, a Sternguard Squad, the Large Terminator Squad, a Bike Squad and two Dev Squads. Which, at 39 models, is approaching half the army. Unsurprisingly 43 Marines would have easily been removed from the table. When you have effectively double its not as easy - even with the loss of AoC. You are combining punchy bling with plenty of bodies.

I can see the argument for it being slow - and somewhat lacking dedicated assault. The Termies however sort of contribute here, with the Teleport Homer opening up some movement options. The DE in me says any force without advance and charge is intrinsically limited. But slower forces do manage, and giving up the IH benefits for say White Scars almost certainly isn't worth it without going down quite a different list. (Assault Intercessors at 17 points for instance may be getting towards being pushed, although BA is probably better than WS unless there is a trick to make them S5.)

Most of the list is barebones W2. I could see some bubbles of Iron Hands at 5++ and some other more durable marines making a go of it though, but not with that list.

Five Plasma Inceptors are now 200 points down from 360 n( arguably this is the silliest change of any of them ). You could support two squads with a double chapter master - each being 145.

So we're talking about 10D3 S8 shots. The nice thing is plasma will actually benefit from the extra doctrine AP more than melta. On average when in tactical those inceptors will kill 15 ( or 3 squads ) of the melta marines when not in cover from 18" with a 10" fly. And the next turn you have a jp captain charging from behind cover.

If you can force an 18.001" bubble from any remaining units then either you have to run to shoot the combi meltas and forgo the MM or you sit with just the MM. Inceptors are T5 and W3 so without being in half range that's about as disadvantaged as you can get with melta against infantry without defensive gear.

You can get two of those setups for 690 points or so.

This idea that you can just force unbalance by spamming one particular thing is a very 7th edition mindset. There are so many different profile and mission considerations now.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tyel wrote:

ccs wrote:
Why are any of you arguing the merrits/flaws of this melta-list?
Its stated purpose was to showcase how much more formerly expensive stuff you can have now that you aren't paying for it.

Its fun to talk about?

I'm afraid I find Tneva's argument somewhat contradictory. The list can apparently be alpha-struck, but don't worry, it can't shoot you. As if LOS-blocking terrain only works one way. Its almost certainly going to be IH, so there is almost certainly going to be no penalty for moving with heavy, the MMs and Las (or Grav, which might be preferable) get reroll 1s to hit regardless of what the Captain is doing, and every model gets a 6+++. You are going to move up behind breachable terrain and then go through it to shoot/charge as appropriate on your turn.

You are looking at 82 models, which by the standards of most tournament lists is towards the high side - so saying they don't have the bodies to take casualties doesn't make sense to me. They also have 19 units, which gives plenty of flexibility. If you have to trade off tactical squads to give you good exchanges with the rest of your army, that's fine. That's how you play an MSU list - or 40k in general.

Before this change you could have run this list (+/- 25 points), but it would have been nothing (including the Devs) but naked guys with bolters. Unsurprisingly it would have hurt nothing and so just be cleared from the table.
Or you could have run the same list with every unit kitted out - but you'd have had to leave behind 3 Tactical Squads, a Sternguard Squad, the Large Terminator Squad, a Bike Squad and two Dev Squads. Which, at 39 models, is approaching half the army. Unsurprisingly 43 Marines would have easily been removed from the table. When you have effectively double its not as easy - even with the loss of AoC. You are combining punchy bling with plenty of bodies.

I can see the argument for it being slow - and somewhat lacking dedicated assault. The Termies however sort of contribute here, with the Teleport Homer opening up some movement options. The DE in me says any force without advance and charge is intrinsically limited. But slower forces do manage, and giving up the IH benefits for say White Scars almost certainly isn't worth it without going down quite a different list. (Assault Intercessors at 17 points for instance may be getting towards being pushed, although BA is probably better than WS unless there is a trick to make them S5.)

Most of the list is barebones W2. I could see some bubbles of Iron Hands at 5++ and some other more durable marines making a go of it though, but not with that list.

Five Plasma Inceptors are now 200 points down from 360 n( arguably this is the silliest change of any of them ). You could support two squads with a double chapter master - each being 145.

So we're talking about 10D3 S8 shots. The nice thing is plasma will actually benefit from the extra doctrine AP more than melta. On average when in tactical those inceptors will kill 15 ( or 3 squads ) of the melta marines when not in cover from 18" with a 10" fly. And the next turn you have a jp captain charging from behind cover.

If you can force an 18.001" bubble from any remaining units then either you have to run to shoot the combi meltas and forgo the MM or you sit with just the MM. Inceptors are T5 and W3 so without being in half range that's about as disadvantaged as you can get with melta against infantry without defensive gear.

You can get two of those setups for 690 points or so.

This idea that you can just force unbalance by spamming one particular thing is a very 7th edition mindset. There are so many different profile and mission considerations now.

10d3 S8 Shots, hitting on a 3+ Rerollable, against MEQ...

20 shots (average)
160/9 hits
800/54 or 400/27 wounds
2,000/162 or 1,000/81 failed saves
That's 12 MEQ, assuming no overkill on squads, no FNP on the Marines, no cover (though also no Tactical Doctrine).

And, here's the thing: Assuming that list is run as Iron Hands, for the Dev Doctrine ability mostly, they all have a 6+ FNP. That means that any given failed save has around a 30% of failing to kill a guy. The next failed save is almost certain to dumpster them, less than 3% odds of survival, but that's still eating a shot.

I think I get about 11 MEQ kills with a Grav-Dev squad, Captain+Lt bubble. 30 inch range. The Cpt and Lts effect multiple units too.

Three of those squads, plus the Captain and Lt. is 500 points. 33 MEQ kills.

 Insectum7 wrote:
I think I get about 11 MEQ kills with a Grav-Dev squad, Captain+Lt bubble. 30 inch range. The Cpt and Lts effect multiple units too.

Three of those squads, plus the Captain and Lt. is 500 points. 33 MEQ kills.

I honestly can't tell which side of this you're stood on. Are you highlighting that marines are super squishy so need to be cheap, or super killy now that they're cheap? Both?

The point is they have all the extra output but still fart and die in a stiff breeze. Showing off how easily they die isn't a good argument for showing how overpowered they are at the same time.

Loyalists are glass cannons now. Sooooo fluffy.

Dudeface wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I think I get about 11 MEQ kills with a Grav-Dev squad, Captain+Lt bubble. 30 inch range. The Cpt and Lts effect multiple units too.

Three of those squads, plus the Captain and Lt. is 500 points. 33 MEQ kills.

I honestly can't tell which side of this you're stood on. Are you highlighting that marines are super squishy so need to be cheap, or super killy now that they're cheap? Both?

The point is they have all the extra output but still fart and die in a stiff breeze. Showing off how easily they die isn't a good argument for showing how overpowered they are at the same time.

I'm on the Firstborn are better than Primaris side

I'm fine with "squishy" marines. You want to reduce squishiness? Reduce overall lethality. AoC was a **** rule.

2W T4 3+ Sv is not squishy, go play Custodes.

 vict0988 wrote:
2W T4 3+ Sv is not squishy, go play Custodes.

Yah, to clarify I wouldn't call them squishy.

I think its fair to say Marines are squishy to certain weapon stats. If they become meta bringing units that can spam S5 Ap-2 2 damage attacks (or better) will be much more popular. This may limit Marines in tournaments because there may be a lot of gate-keeper lists which are unlikely to go the distance, but have good odds into Marines.

This sort of skew has generally been greater into Marines, because MEQ is so common. But equally, that hasn't stopped Marines being top tier at various periods of time.

But you do have the wider meta. You can't just say "your list will run into mass Inceptors and lose" - unless that's a feature of the meta. In which case Marines are still presumably top tier, just a different form to the style covered here.

 vict0988 wrote:
2W T4 3+ Sv is not squishy, go play Custodes.

Yet 500 points of marines removes 33 of them a turn as per 2 posts prior....

Dudeface wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
2W T4 3+ Sv is not squishy, go play Custodes.

Yet 500 points of marines removes 33 of them a turn as per 2 posts prior....

Well is the problem offense or defense? There's two sides to that. And also compare to hordes which as far as I can tell just don't see competetive play. The increased lethality has put us back at 7th ed 40k, except this time GW escalated in 4 years rather than 15.

Dudeface wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
2W T4 3+ Sv is not squishy, go play Custodes.

Yet 500 points of marines removes 33 of them a turn as per 2 posts prior....

Yet 4 T is better than 3 and 2W is better than 1 and 3+ Sv is better than 4+ Sv.

Dudeface wrote:
The point is they have all the extra output but still fart and die in a stiff breeze. Showing off how easily they die isn't a good argument for showing how overpowered they are at the same time.

It's not like they're easier to kill than Guardsmen. Everyone dies quickly in 9th Ed, and T4/W2/3+ is still one of the toughest basic troop profiles in the game.

AoC was the band-aid to stop the larger problem of handing out too many save modifiers to too many weapons - precisely what happened in 2nd Ed and exactly why GW created the AP system we had in 3rd-7th - only (predictably) it didn't work because it pushed things too far in the other way, and the entire meta shifted towards dealing with AoC.

The larger fix is something GW doesn't want to do - that being a review of all the weapons in the game and shifting lethality* downwards - but they won't do it this edition. That's why suddenly everything became free for Marines, as they want people to bring more of them so they will still have an army at the start of turn 3.


*Something they noted as being a real thing in the latest video.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
AoC was the band-aid to stop the larger problem of handing out too many save modifiers to too many weapons - precisely what happened in 2nd Ed and exactly why GW created the AP system we had in 3rd-7th - only (predictably) it didn't work because it pushed things too far in the other way, and the entire meta shifted towards dealing with AoC.

The larger fix is something GW doesn't want to do - that being a review of all the weapons in the game and shifting lethality* downwards - but they won't do it this edition. That's why suddenly everything became free for Marines, as they want people to bring more of them so they will still have an army at the start of turn 3.


*Something they noted as being a real thing in the latest video.

This is the tl;Dr of the situation, but as much as t4 2w 3+ should be a good defensive profile, it simply isn't any more, which is why AoC was introduced in the first place.

Those grav cannons kill 33 marines at 18 points, they also only kill 33 guardsmen at 6.5 points. Feels hard to justify the cost of that defensive profile at that point, which takes us back to where we started before AoC but with more guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 catbarf wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
The point is they have all the extra output but still fart and die in a stiff breeze. Showing off how easily they die isn't a good argument for showing how overpowered they are at the same time.

It's not like they're easier to kill than Guardsmen. Everyone dies quickly in 9th Ed, and T4/W2/3+ is still one of the toughest basic troop profiles in the game.

As above, in the grav cannons example, they're just as easy to kill as guardsmen. They are for a lot of weapons.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
AoC was the band-aid to stop the larger problem of handing out too many save modifiers to too many weapons - precisely what happened in 2nd Ed and exactly why GW created the AP system we had in 3rd-7th - only (predictably) it didn't work because it pushed things too far in the other way, and the entire meta shifted towards dealing with AoC.

The larger fix is something GW doesn't want to do - that being a review of all the weapons in the game and shifting lethality* downwards - but they won't do it this edition. That's why suddenly everything became free for Marines, as they want people to bring more of them so they will still have an army at the start of turn 3.


*Something they noted as being a real thing in the latest video.

That is also a different issue than "free wargear". That problem exists if Wargear is free or not. I'd also point out there are other themes going on - vehicles got cheaper in previous PPM reviews, many got a further reduction this time around - and most/many of the places that get free wargear Marine-Or-Not did not get free lascanons or Thunderhammers. I would postulate they don't have a baseline for an entire Army, where at X number of points this prototypical army has Y number of models with Z level of mix i.e.:

At 2K points a prototypical Marine army is either a full company, or a Demi Company with Toys:
(I'm going to use Primaris, but you can easily slot in First Born Equivalents like Assault Marines for Inceptors etc.)
Cap/Chap
LT (Optional: or Two)
(Optional: Chap/Cap)

30-60 Troop models with about 10/20 Heavy Intercessors, 10/20 Intercessors, 10/20 Infiltrator/Incursors for mix.

10-20 Elites with 5/5 or 10/10 Bladeugard/Aggresors

10-20 Fast Attack with 5/5 Inceptors/Outriders (and yeah all the 3-and-only-3 or 3-6 units should be 3-5 and lose Combat Squad or 5-10)

10-20 Heavy Support i.e. 5/5 or 10/10 Aggressors and Hellblasters

And then a couple of SMALL toys - Thunderfire, Rhinos/Impulsors Speeders and the like.

In a perfect world 2,000 points would be:
Primaris/Firstborn Captain
Mix and Match Primaris/Firstborn LT's
Firstborn/Primaris Chaplain

10 Assault Intercessors
10 Tacticals
10 Infiltrators
10 Intercessors
10 Heavy Intercessors
10 Scouts

10 Bladeguard/Assault Termies/Vanguard Vets
10 Aggressors/Shootinators/Sternguard
1 Dread

10 Outriders/Assault Marines/8SM Bikes with an Attack Bike
10 Inceptors/Assault Marines/8SM Bikes with an Attack Bike

10 Hellblasters/Devastators
10 Eradicators/Devastators
Potential toy: 1x3 Firestrikes

a couple Rhino/Pods, a few Impulsors (Upgraded to Transport: 10 because Transport:6 is stupid for the Primaris Rhino), Potentially a couple Repulsors/LandRaiders as a Dedicated Transport
1 Aircraft - Fighter or Bomber or Transport Gunship with an option for a second.
Optionally 1-3 Forts.

And if you do the Demi Company with 1 Cap/Chap 1 LT, and 30/10/10/10 Marines then you start adding tanks, more speeders and other toys because they traded some of their company to others and were reinforced with more from the Chapter Armoury.

Now at the moment, even with the new MUNITORUM FIELD MANUAL 2023 MK I I'm betting that would easily clear 3-4,000 points and we'd need to play on 6 to 8x4 tables. I'm ok with that and would prefer it. I think the shrinking table is also a significant part of the blame for the Fortification placement and vehicle movement problems. And yeah, that might be a little too much but it is a starting point that's likely to match a lot of the fluff books when the Strike Cruiser drops out of (the) warp, and landings begin - and from that starting point we can start figuring out both how to balance the transports and other vehicles.

Dudeface wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
The point is they have all the extra output but still fart and die in a stiff breeze. Showing off how easily they die isn't a good argument for showing how overpowered they are at the same time.

It's not like they're easier to kill than Guardsmen. Everyone dies quickly in 9th Ed, and T4/W2/3+ is still one of the toughest basic troop profiles in the game.

As above, in the grav cannons example, they're just as easy to kill as guardsmen. They are for a lot of weapons.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
The point is they have all the extra output but still fart and die in a stiff breeze. Showing off how easily they die isn't a good argument for showing how overpowered they are at the same time.

It's not like they're easier to kill than Guardsmen. Everyone dies quickly in 9th Ed, and T4/W2/3+ is still one of the toughest basic troop profiles in the game.

As above, in the grav cannons example, they're just as easy to kill as guardsmen. They are for a lot of weapons.

Yes, but it requires those more powerful guns.

A bolt rifle shot kills a Guardsman as well as a Grav Cannon shot kills a Space Marine. Wounds on 3, leaves a 6+ save. Bolt Rifles are easier to get than Grav Cannons.

Duh?

You mean in number? Yes. In cost? No. A Grav cannons now costs less than a bolt rifle when you add the body holding it.

The lethality was too high, they put AoC in because marines died too easily. They took AoC out and put up lethality further. Marines now die even easier as a result.

The state of the game means that a marine profile is too squishy. GW admit it, I think the vast majority of the playerbase know it, you're highlighting it unironically, but refusing to acknowledge it.

As shown, the correct idea is to reduce AP game wide as has been stated repeatedly for over a year by pretty much everyone. That won't happen however, so instead just accept that in this game, at this state, a marine defensive profile means very little.

I seem to recall that people preferred the 12(iirc) point 1w chaos marines for a time because they actually had the bodies to take the hits on, wasted d2 weapons and were armed with the same weapons at the end of the day.

it's not just AP that is an issue.

It's also range and boardsize, terrain, mechanics that would significantly weaken ranged out put, etc.

Free wargear only increases the problem. If you want bodies on the table then incentivise building tanky lists, more Rhinos, fewer Razorbacks. More Tacticals, fewer Devastators. This is not freaking rocket science. Drop Rhinos to 40 pts and we'll have Rhino rushes again, that's part of what was keeping lethality down in previous editions, cheap transports that didn't do a tonne of damage.

Dudeface wrote:
This is the tl;Dr of the situation, but as much as t4 2w 3+ should be a good defensive profile, it simply isn't any more, which is why AoC was introduced in the first place.

Those grav cannons kill 33 marines at 18 points, they also only kill 33 guardsmen at 6.5 points. Feels hard to justify the cost of that defensive profile at that point, which takes us back to where we started before AoC but with more guns.

S3 AP- weapons kill 6 times as many Guardsmen as Marines. Does that mean Guardsmen should be 3 points? Grav cannons are good against things with T4 or T5 a 2+ or 3+ save and 2 or 4+ wounds. Marines are the ideal target. You are being silly.

 vict0988 wrote:
Free wargear only increases the problem. If you want bodies on the table then incentivise building tanky lists, more Rhinos, fewer Razorbacks. More Tacticals, fewer Devastators. This is not freaking rocket science. Drop Rhinos to 40 pts and we'll have Rhino rushes again, that's part of what was keeping lethality down in previous editions, cheap transports that didn't do a tonne of damage.

Dudeface wrote:
This is the tl;Dr of the situation, but as much as t4 2w 3+ should be a good defensive profile, it simply isn't any more, which is why AoC was introduced in the first place.

Those grav cannons kill 33 marines at 18 points, they also only kill 33 guardsmen at 6.5 points. Feels hard to justify the cost of that defensive profile at that point, which takes us back to where we started before AoC but with more guns.

S3 AP- weapons kill 6 times as many Guardsmen as Marines. Does that mean Guardsmen should be 3 points? Grav cannons are good against things with T4 or T5 a 2+ or 3+ save and 2 or 4+ wounds. Marines are the ideal target. You are being silly.

I'm being silly yet we're showing off how killy space marines are by using space marines as an example of how easily things die in the same example? You're allowed to just admit that marines have survivability issues, otherwise I'd lose you to explain why AoC came into being in the first place and why it propped up some marine armies into the mid tiers. Stop pretending like every other army out there throws rocks around, there's plenty of 2d and/or reasonable ap attacks in literally every book.

I agree on transports though, I do feel they're underused atm and not well represented.

Dudeface wrote:
I seem to recall that people preferred the 12(iirc) point 1w chaos marines for a time because they actually had the bodies to take the hits on, wasted d2 weapons and were armed with the same weapons at the end of the day.

This isn't my memory of things. 12 point CSM were widely regarded as useless - lacking threat into most targets beyond basic chaff, and by comparison dying faster to d1 weapons which are typically much more plentiful than d2.

T4 2w 3+ is a good defensive profile if its cheap - i.e. around 10 points a wound. The problem - which has arguably always applied - was that blinged out Marine squads went considerably higher than this. This is no longer the case.

Tyel wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I seem to recall that people preferred the 12(iirc) point 1w chaos marines for a time because they actually had the bodies to take the hits on, wasted d2 weapons and were armed with the same weapons at the end of the day.

This isn't my memory of things. 12 point CSM were widely regarded as useless - lacking threat into most targets beyond basic chaff, and by comparison dying faster to d1 weapons which are typically much more plentiful than d2.

T4 2w 3+ is a good defensive profile if its cheap - i.e. around 10 points a wound. The problem - which has arguably always applied - was that blinged out Marine squads went considerably higher than this. This is no longer the case.

Oh I agree on the csm, they weren't overly great, but they were sometimes seen as better than their loyalist counterparts for a while due to reduced wastage and points saved. There were some who actually were concerned at getting 2w in the end due to the increase price tags for gaining what felt like little in return.

Would you say you're for the changes at this point then in that case?

Dudeface wrote:

I'm being silly yet we're showing off how killy space marines are by using space marines as an example of how easily things die in the same example? You're allowed to just admit that marines have survivability issues, otherwise I'd lose you to explain why AoC came into being in the first place and why it propped up some marine armies into the mid tiers. Stop pretending like every other army out there throws rocks around, there's plenty of 2d and/or reasonable ap attacks in literally every book.

I agree on transports though, I do feel they're underused atm and not well represented.

Shouldn't the case be then, that we actually look at the guns and weaponry? When even overly squishy marines can turn each other into paste easily (mind boltrifles already start that nonsense), And we certainly don't fix that by handing marines the key to the arsenal and tell them to go wild.

Shouldn't we also reintroduce larger tables and faster transports, as to facilitate a tactical need for transport, instead of infantry outspeeding in most cases transports? Is it a good thing that we can frontload slots of specific types without reprecussions now in arks of omen even more easily?

Shouldn't we consider a cover system that is beneficial to ALL infantry in order to actually create a need for indirect fire and artillery aswell as cover ignoring weapons, like flamers? Shouldn't that also be a niche that nade launchers could and should fullfill same as nades?
You know, f.e. a dualistic system that grants a "hard" cover save and improves the armor if the armor is better than the cover save? Because then both unit types, light aswell as heavy profit from cover in an equal manner, with light infantry benefitting more as they should, whilest heavy infantry can also take advantage whilest still being the choice assault unit?

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

I'm being silly yet we're showing off how killy space marines are by using space marines as an example of how easily things die in the same example? You're allowed to just admit that marines have survivability issues, otherwise I'd lose you to explain why AoC came into being in the first place and why it propped up some marine armies into the mid tiers. Stop pretending like every other army out there throws rocks around, there's plenty of 2d and/or reasonable ap attacks in literally every book.

I agree on transports though, I do feel they're underused atm and not well represented.

Shouldn't the case be then, that we actually look at the guns and weaponry? When even overly squishy marines can turn each other into paste easily (mind boltrifles already start that nonsense), And we certainly don't fix that by handing marines the key to the arsenal and tell them to go wild.

Shouldn't we also reintroduce larger tables and faster transports, as to facilitate a tactical need for transport, instead of infantry outspeeding in most cases transports? Is it a good thing that we can frontload slots of specific types without reprecussions now in arks of omen even more easily?

Shouldn't we consider a cover system that is beneficial to ALL infantry in order to actually create a need for indirect fire and artillery aswell as cover ignoring weapons, like flamers? Shouldn't that also be a niche that nade launchers could and should fullfill same as nades?
You know, f.e. a dualistic system that grants a "hard" cover save and improves the armor if the armor is better than the cover save? Because then both unit types, light aswell as heavy profit from cover in an equal manner, with light infantry benefitting more as they should, whilest heavy infantry can also take advantage whilest still being the choice assault unit?

You speak from my heart and yes 100%, it's what I'd love to see, but confined to the situation we're in, it's a dead duck I think.

Dudeface wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
Free wargear only increases the problem. If you want bodies on the table then incentivise building tanky lists, more Rhinos, fewer Razorbacks. More Tacticals, fewer Devastators. This is not freaking rocket science. Drop Rhinos to 40 pts and we'll have Rhino rushes again, that's part of what was keeping lethality down in previous editions, cheap transports that didn't do a tonne of damage.

Dudeface wrote:
This is the tl;Dr of the situation, but as much as t4 2w 3+ should be a good defensive profile, it simply isn't any more, which is why AoC was introduced in the first place.

Those grav cannons kill 33 marines at 18 points, they also only kill 33 guardsmen at 6.5 points. Feels hard to justify the cost of that defensive profile at that point, which takes us back to where we started before AoC but with more guns.

S3 AP- weapons kill 6 times as many Guardsmen as Marines. Does that mean Guardsmen should be 3 points? Grav cannons are good against things with T4 or T5 a 2+ or 3+ save and 2 or 4+ wounds. Marines are the ideal target. You are being silly.

I'm being silly yet we're showing off how killy space marines are by using space marines as an example of how easily things die in the same example? You're allowed to just admit that marines have survivability issues, otherwise I'd lose you to explain why AoC came into being in the first place and why it propped up some marine armies into the mid tiers. Stop pretending like every other army out there throws rocks around, there's plenty of 2d and/or reasonable ap attacks in literally every book.

I agree on transports though, I do feel they're underused atm and not well represented.

I will admit Marines have survivability issues, but so does AdMech infantry, Necron infantry and Custodes infantry and every vehicle in the game. I am not pretending that attacks with reasonable AP attacks and a Damage characteristic above 1 are rare, that's the whole problem, they're too plentiful, that's what's making Marines have survivability issues despite having good defensive stats. The answer is not to increase SM stats further or give them defensive abilities. GW fethed the bed, now we have to lay in until 10th and then I hope they release a big errata lowering AP and Damage and then quickly release codexes with the lowered stats. You can't even make a joke thread about an insane boost to your faction's lethality or durability without people taking it seriously in 9th edition and saying "this seems like something GW would do".