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mrFickle wrote:
I don’t think it’s right to say the watchers in the dark watched and never intervened, in the first HH DA book they talked to the lead character didn’t they? And I’m sure that I have read that although the DA keep them secret they are quite active on the rock doing secret stuff

And Joe Dawson talked to Duncan Mcleod all the time.

Do you think the lion will return in the HH black armour or they will convert him to green armour?

No doubt he will doubt the lore will provide a reason as to why he has a significantly different look to the HH model

mrFickle wrote:
Do you think the lion will return in the HH black armour or they will convert him to green armour?

No doubt he will doubt the lore will provide a reason as to why he has a significantly different look to the HH model

He will return in the black armor, but it will be repainted by the artisans in a throw away paragraph fairly quickly because too many miniature painters who don't play or read the fluff will paint it green for White Dwarf. Unfortunately, the artisans will repaint it Deathwing White and the pro painters will not be told that.

My bet would be a the Lion model will be inspired by the Horus Heresy model.

Armour will probably be green similar to Azrael but have subtle elements to call back to Ravenwing and Deathwing motifs

I'm sure you'll be able to paint the model whatever color you want.

I think he's still sleeping. In the jungle. The viney jungle.

 Sim-Life wrote:
I think he's still sleeping. In the jungle. The viney jungle.

I don't know, they were disecting some fluff bit from somewhere about the first Ark of Omen that showed up, Dante investigating. A buncha chaos killed by Bolter Fire and a giant blade. Maybe Cipher woke Lion up and took him to the Ark? They're going to have to give The Lion back The Lion Sword somehow. I only hope they figure out how to make the Fallen and Cipher work on the table top for once. Its such a great story hook, that they never make viable.

Breton wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
I think he's still sleeping. In the jungle. The viney jungle.

I don't know, they were disecting some fluff bit from somewhere about the first Ark of Omen that showed up, Dante investigating. A buncha chaos killed by Bolter Fire and a giant blade. Maybe Cipher woke Lion up and took him to the Ark? They're going to have to give The Lion back The Lion Sword somehow. I only hope they figure out how to make the Fallen and Cipher work on the table top for once. Its such a great story hook, that they never make viable.

AFAIK the books present the storyline in a linear way, and the Lion waking up will be the result of Vashtorrs Assault on the Rock in book 3, so it's rather improbable that stuff in book 1 is the result of stuff the Lion did. Cypher is a better bet.

Tsagualsa wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
I think he's still sleeping. In the jungle. The viney jungle.

I don't know, they were disecting some fluff bit from somewhere about the first Ark of Omen that showed up, Dante investigating. A buncha chaos killed by Bolter Fire and a giant blade. Maybe Cipher woke Lion up and took him to the Ark? They're going to have to give The Lion back The Lion Sword somehow. I only hope they figure out how to make the Fallen and Cipher work on the table top for once. Its such a great story hook, that they never make viable.

AFAIK the books present the storyline in a linear way, and the Lion waking up will be the result of Vashtorrs Assault on the Rock in book 3, so it's rather improbable that stuff in book 1 is the result of stuff the Lion did. Cypher is a better bet.

Cypher doesn't swing the Lion Sword. Its likely someone else entirely. And I just realized technically we don't know when/where the battle took place so it could be someone who isn't coming back right now or how "great" the great blade was. I still kind of suspect the Russ. But it could have been Angron, Jaghatai, Fulgrim, or even Abby himself before the craft entered the Imperium.

Well we have 1 loyalist primarch and 3 traitors so you never know GW might give us double trouble to even things out. quite a few of the primarchs are lost in the warp but the lion and the wolf has a ring to it not to mention their personal competitiveness with each other.

mrFickle wrote:
Well we have 1 loyalist primarch and 3 traitors so you never know GW might give us double trouble to even things out. quite a few of the primarchs are lost in the warp but the lion and the wolf has a ring to it not to mention their personal competitiveness with each other.

Its economical too - DA and SW are two of the Big Four Loyalists. I do think they need to bring back a third loyalist with Angron and Lion for fluff reasons.

Tsagualsa wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
I think he's still sleeping. In the jungle. The viney jungle.

I don't know, they were disecting some fluff bit from somewhere about the first Ark of Omen that showed up, Dante investigating. A buncha chaos killed by Bolter Fire and a giant blade. Maybe Cipher woke Lion up and took him to the Ark? They're going to have to give The Lion back The Lion Sword somehow. I only hope they figure out how to make the Fallen and Cipher work on the table top for once. Its such a great story hook, that they never make viable.

AFAIK the books present the storyline in a linear way, and the Lion waking up will be the result of Vashtorrs Assault on the Rock in book 3, so it's rather improbable that stuff in book 1 is the result of stuff the Lion did. Cypher is a better bet.

I am not sure how many people know this, but the current Dark Angel supplement explicitly states that the Lion is awake. He is currently just chillaxing in his cove playing Elden Ring or something, but he is awake.

 Sim-Life wrote:
I think he's still sleeping. In the jungle. The viney jungle.

I think he's sleeping in the green meadow instead. He's waiting in the shadows, fast - but lazy - like the tiger. ;P

Anyway, I think Lion coming back is a done-deal at this point, I just disagree with some of the assessments as to what that looks like. For one, the tarot implies "the Hound" will lead a "Great Hoste" (which is said to be "infernal" - so, the Hound and the Hoste are not good guys) to the "Shattered World".

I interpret the Hound as Angron. His legion was formerly known as the War Hounds, after all. Angron was referred to as a hound on at least one occassion (where he referred to himself as such while arguing with Russ, ref: Betrayer - "“Be silent, you have given your threats Dog. Now hear me, listen to another hound barking for once.”). Khorne is also associated with the concept of Hounds (esp. Flesh Hounds), and as a daemon prince Angrons features are described as being dog-like. We also know Angron has a role to play in this story as one of the books in the series is named for him.).

The Hoste is what it says on the tin, I suspect there will be a lot of World Eaters involved given the tarots discussion of blood red blades, etc. Sounds very bloody and khornate overall, fits with the MO of the World Eaters.

The Shattered World is obviously Caliban.

So I think its Angron and the Lion who will face off (I don't get the impression that Vashtorr is much of a fighter himself, he seems more of a lead from the rear/strategist type than a martial fighter type who leads from the front).

As for what happens afterwards, anyone knows. I don' know that the Lion will become ruler or regent or whatever of Imperium Nihilus. From the loyalist perspective, thats Dante. More recent fluff more or less states that Abaddon is the effective ruler of it all as he leads the most powerful unified force in that area of space and many worlds either don't realize he's a traitor or just don't care because he brings them security and stability and as long as they don't cross him hes content to leave them be as long as they pay him protection money/tithe, etc.

 Eldarsif wrote:


I am not sure how many people know this, but the current Dark Angel supplement explicitly states that the Lion is awake. He is currently just chillaxing in his cove playing Elden Ring or something, but he is awake.

What page is that?

Breton wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:


I am not sure how many people know this, but the current Dark Angel supplement explicitly states that the Lion is awake. He is currently just chillaxing in his cove playing Elden Ring or something, but he is awake.

What page is that?

Yeah I feel like that would have been well known by now but if it’s there it’s there. I know Luther has disappeared which I thought was the precursor for the lion to wake up. What they need to explain is what has been keeping him asleep and what is causing him to wake up. It can’t just a be a King Arthur “he will awake when his country needs him most” thing. The psychic attacks that nicked him out is fine but why wake up now? Has his body healed or is there something more going on? It could be that the psych oh attack did brain damage and his body has healed but he’s not the same guy he was 10k years ago

Wasn’t it The Changeling that sprung Luther, way back at the end of 7th Ed?

mrFickle wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:


I am not sure how many people know this, but the current Dark Angel supplement explicitly states that the Lion is awake. He is currently just chillaxing in his cove playing Elden Ring or something, but he is awake.

What page is that?

Yeah I feel like that would have been well known by now but if it’s there it’s there. I know Luther has disappeared which I thought was the precursor for the lion to wake up. What they need to explain is what has been keeping him asleep and what is causing him to wake up. It can’t just a be a King Arthur “he will awake when his country needs him most” thing. The psychic attacks that nicked him out is fine but why wake up now? Has his body healed or is there something more going on? It could be that the psych oh attack did brain damage and his body has healed but he’s not the same guy he was 10k years ago

Hoepfully he is less of a complete ahole but i doubt it

From Ruinstorm, Lion and Bobby G were on fairly okay terms. They both uderstood the necessity of one another.

When The BA, DA and Ultrasmurfs stormed the place that turned horus together they worked in full tandem.

Bobby G and Lion will have a catch up, any quabbles they have will be bickering.

I wreckon Bobby G will be grateful to have his brother back and utilise his warhamaster capabilities.

The Lion will be all too grateful to accept his warmaster position and use his sons effectively.

Breton wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:


I am not sure how many people know this, but the current Dark Angel supplement explicitly states that the Lion is awake. He is currently just chillaxing in his cove playing Elden Ring or something, but he is awake.

What page is that?

Page 61. Says that he is there just waiting until the clarion call of trumpet, his wounds long healed. Basically the text is all but saying that he could jump out and be about tomorrow.

Not having the book, does it say explicitly that he is awake? Based on what was posted I would take it to mean something more along the lines of him basically napping, waiting for the bat-signal or whatever to rouse him.

I suspect the Lion is trapped in a wardrobe with a female chaos psyker.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Not having the book, does it say explicitly that he is awake? Based on what was posted I would take it to mean something more along the lines of him basically napping, waiting for the bat-signal or whatever to rouse him.

“One more truth remains concealed, however. Buried deep inside the last bedrock of old Caliban is the greatest of all the Dark Angels' secrets. Hidden in the innermost chamber that is unreachable by all save the cryptic Watchers in the Dark, Lion El'Jonson slumbers. The His wounds long healed, he awaits a time when he is most needed, when the clarion call of battle summons him to once more lead his sons to defend the Imperium of Mankind.”

It actually explicitly states he’s asleep, albeit healthier than he was.

Even money says the Watchers are keeping him asleep until he's needed.

Quite how they'll know when that will be is a whole other discussion, of course.

Johnson writing to G-man:

Dearest brother,
I have awoken from cryo sleep. In order to get caught up on current events I found a website called 40kchan. It has some interesting theories on running the Imperium I'd like to discuss with you.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:
From Ruinstorm, Lion and Bobby G were on fairly okay terms. They both uderstood the necessity of one another.

When The BA, DA and Ultrasmurfs stormed the place that turned horus together they worked in full tandem.

Bobby G and Lion will have a catch up, any quabbles they have will be bickering.

I wreckon Bobby G will be grateful to have his brother back and utilise his warhamaster capabilities.

The Lion will be all too grateful to accept his warmaster position and use his sons effectively.

Well except for a few things. When both were asking the question "Who should be in charge of this Imperium Secundus?" The only thing they both agreed on was "Not You". And lest we forget Bobby G (And to a lesser extent Sanguinius) were getting ready to evict the Lion over being a little too callous about collateral damage with Bobby G's human population. Guilliman and the Lion potentially have more personal animosity than Russ and the Lion.

We also don't know how much the Lion will know. If he's been awake for some time, how up to date is he on the state of the Imperium? Will he view Guilliman's Indomitus Crusade as a massive failure? Will his focus be on fighting in Nihilus or the other side of the Imperium? What about if he manages to meet up with Cypher, or speak to the Emperor as Guilliman did?

There's lots of potential for drama. GW loves to set up reasons that factions would fight more than they would get along, and the Lion and Roboute are no different.

drbored wrote:
We also don't know how much the Lion will know. If he's been awake for some time, how up to date is he on the state of the Imperium? Will he view Guilliman's Indomitus Crusade as a massive failure? Will his focus be on fighting in Nihilus or the other side of the Imperium? What about if he manages to meet up with Cypher, or speak to the Emperor as Guilliman did?

There's lots of potential for drama. GW loves to set up reasons that factions would fight more than they would get along, and the Lion and Roboute are no different.

He won't know anything - because as we just established, the Lion Sleeps Tonight. I actually expect some sort of Cypher/Lion interaction and soon after he wakes up. I find it hard to believe Cypher would tag along with Bobby G, then sit out the return of the Lion. I hadn't though about it, but now fully expect Bobby G to take The Lion to the Golden Throne personally.

I expect any fluff around the Imperium with Just the Lion and Bobby G to be extremely forced and immersion breaking until/unless a third person/voice is added. And I don't think it can be Dante - who is not a Primarch, and who marketing needs to take a step back from the camera to go cross the Rubicon. And its not going to be the new Lord Commander Solar. It might work for Bobby G, but not for the Lion. Likewise Saint Celestine will not impress the Lion. Maybe Trajann, but I doubt even that.

I expect that that lion will have been speaking to the emperor in his sleep, not all the time but maybe since the great rift opened so he will be aware of what’s going on, he will have his orders and not concerned with a power struggle with Bobby.

Probably the emperor will exploit the lions sense of shame of the end of the HH and tell his joy how he can win his fathers approval by repelling to e arks of omen

The Arks of Omen FAQ calls out all supreme commanders by name except for G-Man. Instead there is a reference to "Adeptus Astartes Primarch", given this is only necessary if there is more than one....

the lions gonna show up, and then he will at some point go over to the fallen and rotflstomp them into the pavement.

before people go "of but their the fallen, they are a fan favourite faction, they are a whole reison detre of the dark angels". and no no its not and the fallen arent a threat.

the fallens backstory is the lamest thing in the world, its the horus heresy in miniature, and its a force that people on both sides of the table look at with rose tinted glasses on. the fallen are such a minor player in the galaxy, and they are not capable of standing toe to toe with any chaos warband or space marine army of size.

the fallen have no massive stockpiles of weapons, they have no access to vehicles or dreadnaughts or aerospace assets, or warships apart from what they have managed to beg borrow and steal, which wont be substantial in any quantity. and on top of that they are not an organized fighting force, warbands for all their failures have structures, command, logistics and supply sources even if chaos demon space magic based.

the fallen have none of this, they have few demonic allies, VERY FEW, they have no bottomless source of bodies and ammunition, they have no command structure beyond "luther leader" which holds about as much water as a bucket with a hole in in, heck the fallen infight and shoot eachother, the lord cypher convinced hundreds of them to fight with him in the gathering storm, and it shows how they have no unity, they have no organization, and are a bunch of scattered nobodies that have slowly painfully, gradually over thousands of years come back togeather.

the fallen even then, even brought togeather, are a TINY warband, thousands yes, but they have none of those assets that the other warbands do, and no idea what they fething want beyond "kill the lion", if they were to say piss off huron and get the much more organized, well supplied, and well organized red corsairs, it would be over in a fortnight
nevermind a proper large warband or legion like the world bearers or black legion, they are going to get steamrolled over the course of a single campaign down the line and the lions sons will need to move on, find a new purpose and if they dont, then it really shows how dumbed down, how afraid games workshop has become, the fallen are going to stand too, and face their inevitable crushing annihilation, they may make a meal out of it for the dark angels, but its doomed to happen. sorry chaos worshippers, i really want you to have nice things, but my theory is that he arrives, unites the unforgiven, beats the brakes off vashtors plans, then down the line he gets a campaign to flatten the fallen, and the rest of them form some weird +1 group tag alongs that functionally become the dark angels equivalent to the death company, seeking a glorious death in battle, seeking a heroes death when the lion needs them to fight and hold the line and die for him.