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Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I can't disagree with their decision, I suspect it'll hack off a fair few people in the process though.

I also wonder if we'll see people seeing more of a divide between competitive and matched so they get to use all their toys.

I can tell you to what this will lead for CSM players. They will ever more be encouraged to play either HH and run their decimators etc. maybee as dark mech allies or in their forces. Or just outright stop bothering with GW.

Only if they play competative games....

 Kothra wrote:

 Asmodai wrote:
I do find the "This doesn't apply to the new kit we're trying to sell you" caveat a little amusing though.

I dunno, I read that as "some new Heresy units will get Legends rules and some won't get any 40k rules at all."

He's referring to the new Knight. Actually all knights, and Custodes. Which are specifically called out as viable in matched, narrative and competitive, and will get updates, and NOT be relegated to Legends.

I find the timing on this a little Kirbyish.

2022 - Release new 30k game.
2022~2023 - Release plastic tanks and dreads.
2023 - Wooops, now they are off to Legends in 40k.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Balance is really important for many players, and us too – especially for competitive events. You’ve probably noticed that the Warhammer: The Horus Heresy range has been expanding recently, and will continue to do so. This means that Space Marines armies in Warhammer 40,000 (who are already, let’s be honest, spoiled for choice) have been receiving even MORE options to pick from, and balancing this ever increasing range of miniatures for competitive games has become unwieldy.

Well they are not at all wrong.....

the reason is legit, but as they did not cut all classic marines and made the new SM "true scale models only" it does not really mean anything

"because we added new Space Marine units balance get worse and therefore we remove those you already bought instead of just not adding new ones but only upgrade old models"

 Mr Morden wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I can't disagree with their decision, I suspect it'll hack off a fair few people in the process though.

I also wonder if we'll see people seeing more of a divide between competitive and matched so they get to use all their toys.

I can tell you to what this will lead for CSM players. They will ever more be encouraged to play either HH and run their decimators etc. maybee as dark mech allies or in their forces. Or just outright stop bothering with GW.

Only if they play competative games....

Competitive has firmly subdued mere matchedplay locally. So my decimator is basically a nono. Just as my R&H were turned into a nono earlier in 9th.
And from that experience i can tell you, that either you are lucky and have a decent local community or if you have a mtached-comp minded one then you have some very expensive paperweights now.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Competitive has firmly subdued mere matchedplay locally. So my decimator is basically a nono. Just as my R&H were turned into a nono earlier in 9th.
And from that experience i can tell you, that either you are lucky and have a decent local community or if you have a mtached-comp minded one then you have some very expensive paperweights now.

such things are not true, GW will never to that, old models are perfectly fine and you can just proxy and don't need to buy anything new /s

 Mr Morden wrote:

Only if they play competative games....

Sadly,the "legends not being legal in tournament" mentality trickles down to casual crowds.

Same with the "minimum recommended size" or the "rule of 3" in 8th

I am already seeing people say that you cannot play small (500pt) games with standard rules and that you must play the new Combat Patrol rules instead.

Such a sad mentality.

What is actually forcing GW to move these units to Legends? Is it really that difficult to roll out a few extra datacards?

 Valkyrie wrote:
What is actually forcing GW to move these units to Legends? Is it really that difficult to roll out a few extra datacards?

I think it’s more likely that they want to keep a flavour distinction between 40K and HH. Plus HH is a specialist games product and I don’t think they talk to each other much. Not that I agree with any of that, but that’s my observation of the reality.

They say in the article why, and for the most part I totally agree.

Prime examples being the different types of dreadnoughts. Depending on the army faction rules, they could swing from massively overpriced to massively underpriced. If they just want one point value for a model across all factions, then faction rules skew the balance of them time and time again.

Dreadnoughts have been meta boogeymen multiple times across the last editions… And it has nearly always been FW (now heresy) variants that have been the specific issue.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I can't disagree with their decision, I suspect it'll hack off a fair few people in the process though.

I also wonder if we'll see people seeing more of a divide between competitive and matched so they get to use all their toys.

I can tell you to what this will lead for CSM players. They will ever more be encouraged to play either HH and run their decimators etc. maybee as dark mech allies or in their forces. Or just outright stop bothering with GW.

Only if they play competative games....

Of course as history has shown tournament rules have habit of becoming standard. Tournament mission pack default, ro3 was outside tournaments even when it was tournament rule etc.

Heil even minimum board size is now considered default.

People default to lowest common denominator rather than agree on game mode game by game.

 kodos wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Competitive has firmly subdued mere matchedplay locally. So my decimator is basically a nono. Just as my R&H were turned into a nono earlier in 9th.
And from that experience i can tell you, that either you are lucky and have a decent local community or if you have a mtached-comp minded one then you have some very expensive paperweights now.

such things are not true, GW will never to that, old models are perfectly fine and you can just proxy and don't need to buy anything new /s

"But look, those totally greatly crafted legends rules, that will (selfadmittedly) never be looked at in the whole edition."

Every other company would've gotten flak for planned obsolesence in their product.

 Valkyrie wrote:
What is actually forcing GW to move these units to Legends? Is it really that difficult to roll out a few extra datacards?

Oh the balance issue is real, as is the stupidly large amount of army building options available to SM but not anyone else.

However, there is more than one person on FB suggesting the real reason might be that the Heresy kits (Forge World) are taking sales away from the 40k line (Warhammer Design Studio).

Balance or sales, either option seems plausible.

If your local meta only plays competitive then it kinda deserves what it gets. Unless you are playing in a tournament or prepping for one, matched play should be the default, not the other way round. Luckily, my local scene will rarely play competitive unless planning to go to an event (unlikely).

 bullyboy wrote:
If your local meta only plays competitive then it kinda deserves what it gets. Unless you are playing in a tournament or prepping for one, matched play should be the default, not the other way round. Luckily, my local scene will rarely play competitive unless planning to go to an event (unlikely).

Except these become default outside "competitive" games anyway. Convenience not having to negotiate game terms game by game. Especially as that would require agreeing game ahead of time. Just popping up store with army wouldn't work anymore.

 Valkyrie wrote:
What is actually forcing GW to move these units to Legends? Is it really that difficult to roll out a few extra datacards?

SM have too many Datasheets. Therefore because we are lazy CSM lose all their HH and Daemonengines. Or atleast that is how it reads to me as GWs thought process.

No wonder when you have literally more Primaris leutnants than whole factions have separate unit entries, despite suffering aswell from middlemanagementitis. (small char spam) cue gsc. Or have Devastators turned into how many differing units? Nerfguns, melta and plasma?

Nobody seems to have noticed variant marine article out

+1a and s blood angel detachwent bonu

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/01/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-space-marine-chapters/

Really? Even Dreadclaws? We've had those since early 3rd edition. Congratulations, no more drop pods for CSM. Gods, I'm glad I left this utter show for HH.

 Shadow Walker wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/01/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-space-marine-chapters/

Seems like a clusterfeth waiting to happen.

What are these rules for Daddy Simba? 3++ , 4+++ against mortals , -1 to wound with damage reflection AND first strike so he minces everything in melee before even getting attacked? how are you supposed to kill this abomination. Has to be half of your 2000pt army to not be auto include in every list lol
And even untargetable beyond 12"? I really dont know how to feel about this

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The game ended with two models on the table, and one player having their entire army wiped out.

Hard to spin that...

Ending with a mere 2 models to 0 sounds like a hard fought battle, not a wipe like often happens now.

They also really didn't use any terrain at all. On the other hand in a larger game it will be easier to focus units down entirely. This is a poor representation either way of if the game is lethal or not.

 Kothra wrote:
I am already seeing people say that you cannot play small (500pt) games with standard rules and that you must play the new Combat Patrol rules instead.

Such a sad mentality.

FROM GW -

“There are now three main army sizes: Incursion (1,000 points), Strike Force (2,000 points), and Onslaught (3,000 points). 500-point games are still perfectly possible, of course, but the Warhammer 40,000 Core Rules are optimised for slightly larger forces than that.*”

* = combat patrol is more suited for 500pts

But 500 pts can still be played of course.

How so? We have confirmed restrictions (can't have wrong-chapter units in a chapter-specific detachment, the Templar detachment can't have Psykers)

EDIT: And Seth even shows how that's restricted further still for successors

 bullyboy wrote:
If your local meta only plays competitive then it kinda deserves what it gets. Unless you are playing in a tournament or prepping for one, matched play should be the default, not the other way round. Luckily, my local scene will rarely play competitive unless planning to go to an event (unlikely).

So people who didn't go to comp, but had the competitive ruleset take over their community for matched play deserve this?

Biasn wrote:
What are these rules for Daddy Simba? 3++ , 4+++ against mortals , -1 to wound with damage reflection AND first strike so he minces everything in melee before even getting attacked? how are you supposed to kill this abomination. Has to be half of your 2000pt army to not be auto include in every list lol

Just shoot him

Huh. mixed feelings on this.

For the snowflakes themselves, this seems fine. They can always take their special stuff. They can straight swap detachment abilities (rule, strats, enhancements) for a more 'thematic' set of detachment abilities.

I know some people will get bent out of shape about the fact that any space marine chapter can take any detachment, but I honestly don't care (though it would've been easier with different names 'righteous crusaders' rather than 'black templar righteous crusaders', that's just rubbing someone's nose in it)

----
However... the detachment rules make the flaw in the detachment system really obvious (and expected). These rules are NOT equal.
And space marines will have a giant pile of options to swap between on the fly. Facing Thousand Sons? Take the crusade and the anti-psyker vow. Built a smash army? Take red thirst. etc, etc.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Biasn wrote:
What are these rules for Daddy Simba? 3++ , 4+++ against mortals , -1 to wound with damage reflection AND first strike so he minces everything in melee before even getting attacked? how are you supposed to kill this abomination. Has to be half of your 2000pt army to not be auto include in every list lol

Just shoot him

Of course inability to shoot him over 12"makes easier said than done.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Biasn wrote:
What are these rules for Daddy Simba? 3++ , 4+++ against mortals , -1 to wound with damage reflection AND first strike so he minces everything in melee before even getting attacked? how are you supposed to kill this abomination. Has to be half of your 2000pt army to not be auto include in every list lol

Just shoot him

With what? Everything shy of a lascannon wounds on a 6+