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Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





The edition was fluffy due to low faction count. Every army played vastly different.
   
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The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

IIRC not being bothered by being on fire was one of the status effect perks they enjoyed.

You light most troops up, they took damage every turn and had to try to put the fire out. Guys in TDA were all “meh, whatever” and could go about their day.

   
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 Nevelon wrote:
IIRC not being bothered by being on fire was one of the status effect perks they enjoyed.

You light most troops up, they took damage every turn and had to try to put the fire out. Guys in TDA were all “meh, whatever” and could go about their day.


Which is super funny considering at the time Space Hulk was still relatively fresh in peoples' minds and there the heavy flamer was absolutely lethal to your own troops. "Forgive me brother, for the mission" said the heavy gunner and let rip with flaming death in many, many missions where it all came down to your guys barreling down a pesky door and giving the flamernator just the slightest sliver of LoS to the object to be destroyed

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On Thunder Hammers?

Waaaay back when the Assault Terminators were released, the background explained due to the force of a Thunder Hammer’s strike, anyone not wearing Terminator Armour would be blasted off their feet.

I’ll check me 2nd Ed Wargear book and see if it continued into that edition.

Yes. Yes it did.

2nd Ed Wargear Book, page 12 wrote:Thunder Hammer.

This is a weapon used by Terminator Space Marines, normally used in conjunction with a storm shield. The thunder hammer is a large hammer with a power generator that only energises when the hammer strikes its target. This allows the weapon to store a tremendous amount of energy and release it only at the moment of impact, producing a terrific blast of energy and a sound like a crack of thunder. Were it not for his Terminator armour the Space Marine himself would probably be knocked over by the impact


Fun fact? Unusually for 2nd Ed, it didn’t roll to wound. Just straight to saves, doing D6 damage - and automatically penetrating Vehicle Armour.

Was a bloody nasty weapon.

Of course, back then a Lightning Claw was a souped up Powerfist (doing D3 damage, compared to the PF damage 1. That you could parry with.

Terminators have never been scarier than they were in 2nd Ed.

   
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United Kingdom

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Waaaay back when the Assault Terminators were released, the background explained due to the force of a Thunder Hammer’s strike, anyone not wearing Terminator Armour would be blasted off their feet.
One of my favourite short stories (Argent) has a normal human picking up a Marine crozius during a fight and smiting a heretic with it - it breaks both her arms and really messes her up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/03 20:13:31


 
   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Terminators have never been scarier than they were in 2nd Ed.


No question.

That's why Terminators truly felt elite - they had special goodies on top of other special goodies. That's the kind of stuff you would give only to the most veteran Space Marines.

As I recall, chainfists were also useful for cutting through terrain - building walls and such. Why bother with the door of the Battle Bunker when you can make your own?

Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Terminators have never been scarier than they were in 2nd Ed.


No question.

That's why Terminators truly felt elite - they had special goodies on top of other special goodies. That's the kind of stuff you would give only to the most veteran Space Marines.

As I recall, chainfists were also useful for cutting through terrain - building walls and such. Why bother with the door of the Battle Bunker when you can make your own?


S10, D D4, -6 to saves, Armour Pen D20+D4+D6+10. No specific bonus against vehicles, other than its worryingly reliable dice pool.

3rd Ed did a number on Terminators they never fully recovered from. The most egregious for me was Power Fists going to Strike Last. Not to mention Choppas reducing them to a 4+ save.

That’s not to say they were completely useless, just (much like Dreadnoughts up to 8th) a shadow of their former glory.

In fact, without over egging the pudding, a lot of Elite Infantry suffered in 3rd. Aspect Warriors went from terrors to….pretty crap. They didn’t get any tougher, but lost a lot of killing power.

Is it better now? Dunno. Ask someone with a clue about the modern game.

   
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The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

Terminators did OK in the 8th reset, but that was the first glimmer of not-sucking they saw since 2nd.

   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Terminators have never been scarier than they were in 2nd Ed.


No question.

That's why Terminators truly felt elite - they had special goodies on top of other special goodies. That's the kind of stuff you would give only to the most veteran Space Marines.

As I recall, chainfists were also useful for cutting through terrain - building walls and such. Why bother with the door of the Battle Bunker when you can make your own?


S10, D D4, -6 to saves, Armour Pen D20+D4+D6+10. No specific bonus against vehicles, other than its worryingly reliable dice pool.

3rd Ed did a number on Terminators they never fully recovered from. The most egregious for me was Power Fists going to Strike Last. Not to mention Choppas reducing them to a 4+ save.

That’s not to say they were completely useless, just (much like Dreadnoughts up to 8th) a shadow of their former glory.

In fact, without over egging the pudding, a lot of Elite Infantry suffered in 3rd. Aspect Warriors went from terrors to….pretty crap. They didn’t get any tougher, but lost a lot of killing power.

Is it better now? Dunno. Ask someone with a clue about the modern game.


The most egregious was going from 3+ on 2D6 vs modifiers i.e. still armor saving 25% of the time -before they still took an invuln - to not getting an armor save or an invuln (which they no longer had) against a plasma cannon.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
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Thats the thing though isn't it? At the scale of 2nd edition terminators were a scary looking centrepiece unit. Most infantry is as big or bigger these days, not to mention all the monsters and super vehicles.
   
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I’m not as bothered by that meself. The original metal Terminators were kind of small for their day.

Then came their first, super basic plastic incarnation and metal alternatives which bulked them out a decent amount, but still left them not quite the right scale.

Sod it, I’m doing a thread as a spin off.

   
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Breton wrote:
The most egregious was going from 3+ on 2D6 vs modifiers i.e. still armor saving 25% of the time -before they still took an invuln - to not getting an armor save or an invuln (which they no longer had) against a plasma cannon.


Terminators definitely got it from both sides. They were super-survivable but also capable of dishing out punishment in ways no other infantry could match.

And yes, they were absolutely a centerpiece unit - and priced accordingly. And they weren't cheaty - you got what you paid for and while tough to kill, they were not invincible. A squad of them stuck in the open facing heavy weapons was eventually going to succumb.

I'm not longer current, and 2nd ed. definitely caused them to stay in the box whereas they were a favorite choice in 2nd. A far batter option was a tactical squad maxed out on plasma/meltas and then assault marines sans jump packs with power weapons.

Not only did you get more tactical options, they were far more survivable - which was utterly insane.

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The biggest drawback to Terminators was movement.

They could teleport, yes. But that was 50% of the unit’s points (unless Abaddon was in your list). They could ride in Landraider, except those weren’t actually sold during 2nd Ed.

   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The biggest drawback to Terminators was movement.

They could teleport, yes. But that was 50% of the unit’s points (unless Abaddon was in your list). They could ride in Landraider, except those weren’t actually sold during 2nd Ed.


Even if you found a Landraider kit, the points cost for the unit was enormous, meaning that was the better part of your army.

Also, using the rules as written, one good hit and the tank and everyone in it was dead.

(That's one of the crowdsourced changes to 40k that I have on my site. When vehicles get a "all passengers are killed" result, instead make an unmodified armor save for each. This not only makes transports less deadly, but creates the very cool and fluffy image of terminators sawing/bashing their way out of a crippled vehicle.)

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True on the cost, and you’d think I’d constantly remember transporting troops in 2nd Ed was risky at best, but no 😂😂


   
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Upstate, New York

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The biggest drawback to Terminators was movement.

They could teleport, yes. But that was 50% of the unit’s points (unless Abaddon was in your list). They could ride in Landraider, except those weren’t actually sold during 2nd Ed.


When did the RT Land Raider go out of print? I know the “new” one came out sometime in 3rd.

In 3rd the fact that SBs were assault made the lack of movement a little more tolerable. They could still project a reasonable amount of firepower while moving, which is something regular bolters could not do at the time.

One big issue with terminators in the 3rd-7th era was durability. Especially durability per point. Being T4, they were still vulnerable to small arms. Toss enough rounds into them and wait for the 1s to come up on the armor saves. Even when the basic guys got the 5++ (which was not that far into 3rd) they died quick to all the AP2 stuff out there. So the only thing they were really efficient tanking was mid/low volume non AP attacks. But most lists had more then enough of the other types of fire to just cash them out.

Rules creep defiantly didn’t do them any favors. The storm bolter used to have some major perks, but those were eroded over time. Escalation with the amount and quality of fire armies could put out just highlighted the fact that they were vulnerable to two fairly broad classes of it.


   
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 Nevelon wrote:


When did the RT Land Raider go out of print? I know the “new” one came out sometime in 3rd.


I'm not sure that they ever announced a halt in production, but by the time I was playing they were scarce. GW was busy cranking out new Eldar tanks, a revised Predator, the Whirlwind, etc. That being said, they were not uncommon in the tabletop and I actually got one on ebay for a non-insane price (which I subsequently sold for an insane price).

In 3rd the fact that SBs were assault made the lack of movement a little more tolerable. They could still project a reasonable amount of firepower while moving, which is something regular bolters could not do at the time.

One big issue with terminators in the 3rd-7th era was durability. Especially durability per point.


Terminators were wrecked by multiple factors. The change of the entire turn sequence, movement mechanics and cover meant that you could no longer have a heavily armored unit in hard cover dominate a space of the board with its firepower. A classic terminator squad with 4 storm bolters and an assault cannon could assert fire dominance and require major effort to overcome or suppress. That's 8 sustained fire dice of bolter fire, usually rolling for 2s to hit and backed by either the assault cannon in its prime or the Cyclone.

In the close combat role terminators were pretty much peerless adversaries. Lighting claws and thunder hammers could kill just about anything out there and the multiple parries gave higher WS opponents fits. Again, you paid a lot for them, they had limited reach and mobility, but they were wonderfully effective and fluffy.

With cover and armor being either/or, battlefields opened up, people began using linear tactics and of course Rhino rushes and power swords could pretty much annihilate terminators at a fraction of the points cost. The emphasis on AP 2 weapons overnight transformed the Razorback from a decent anti-vehicle track to a world-beating Marine slayer.

I'm getting back into gaming building a new group and they've quite receptive to going back to 2nd (partly because all their current books are about to become worthless) and they are fascinated by how awesome many units used to be. Wait till they learn about dreadnoughts!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/04 15:21:13


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Not sure when it went out of production. But I was playing 2nd Ed from more or less the start, and I don’t recall ever seeing Landraider on sale. Indeed I managed to buy a knackered one and kitbash it back it to health. And in my local GW, I was the only player with one.

   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Not sure when it went out of production. But I was playing 2nd Ed from more or less the start, and I don’t recall ever seeing Landraider on sale. Indeed I managed to buy a knackered one and kitbash it back it to health. And in my local GW, I was the only player with one.


Codex: Space Wolves (1994) has an advertisement for it in the back of the book. None of the subsequent Marine books do.

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Do you like Star Wars but find the prequels and sequels disappointing?  Man of Destiny is the book series for you.

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Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

 Nevelon wrote:

When did the RT Land Raider go out of print? I know the “new” one came out sometime in 3rd.


Right around the end of RT/dawn of 2e. so 94(?)
It wasn't ever really "announced", just one day the shop couldn't re-stock them....

   
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It definitely got reboxed to 2nd Ed Standard. But when that first started happening across the range I couldn’t tell you,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For 10th?

Thunder Hammers dish out Mortal Wounds, only when wielded in Terminator Armour.

Lightning Claws +1 Attack, S6, AP-?, D1, but re-roll hits and wounds to represent the flurry of attacks and blades the Terminator can unleash with proper training.

Unsure what the current stats are for LC though.

Then Terminators are staring to feel scary again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/04 22:16:20


   
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Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The biggest drawback to Terminators was movement.

They could teleport, yes. But that was 50% of the unit’s points (unless Abaddon was in your list). They could ride in Landraider, except those weren’t actually sold during 2nd Ed.


Even if you found a Landraider kit, the points cost for the unit was enormous, meaning that was the better part of your army.
Very incorrect! A Land Raider during 2nd edition was 220 points . . . compared to the starting price of a Tactical Squads 300. Add a Missile Launcher, Flamer and Powerfist you're looking at a 370ish point unit to the Land Raiders 220 (+5 for Auto Launchers) 225.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
These were significant mechanical distinctions they used to have, all of which have been eroded away.

I remember the abject horror which greeted the 3rd edition rules for terminators. They vanished from the battlefield. Assault marines with power swords were in every way superior and cost far less. Sales of the models cratered and in desperation GW released supplemental rules to shore them up.
Assault Marines could not get Power Weapons in 3rd edition. Only the Sergeant got to upgrade his Chainsword. Blood Angels Honour Guard could get Power Weapons, but that's a different beast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Nevelon wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The biggest drawback to Terminators was movement.

They could teleport, yes. But that was 50% of the unit’s points (unless Abaddon was in your list). They could ride in Landraider, except those weren’t actually sold during 2nd Ed.

In 3rd the fact that SBs were assault made the lack of movement a little more tolerable. They could still project a reasonable amount of firepower while moving, which is something regular bolters could not do at the time.
The secret to using Terminators in those editions was to leverage the fact that they could both shoot AND Assault in the same turn. In that way, they could put out an incredible amount of lethality. No, they couldn't just camp in cover anymore, but the 3rd edition paradigm was the era in which you had to actually start moving your Marines around (and the cover save method encouraged this).

Terminators functioned as aggressive, line breaking units, or counter-punch units to opposition assaults.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/02/04 23:56:42


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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 Insectum7 wrote:
Very incorrect! A Land Raider during 2nd edition was 220 points . . . compared to the starting price of a Tactical Squads 300. Add a Missile Launcher, Flamer and Powerfist you're looking at a 370ish point unit to the Land Raiders 220 (+5 for Auto Launchers) 225.


I was referring to the points cost of the Land Raider and the Terminators combined, which made for one very expensive (if durable) maneuver element.

Assault Marines could not get Power Weapons in 3rd edition. Only the Sergeant got to upgrade his Chainsword. Blood Angels Honour Guard could get Power Weapons, but that's a different beast.


The combat was abstracted, though, so if you had a power weapon in contact, it could kill people it wasn't touching, so if you took a veteran sergeant with power weapon and pistol, terminator honors and also a character with a power weapon, one could scythe through just about anything - at least for a while.


No, they couldn't just camp in cover anymore, but the 3rd edition paradigm was the era in which you had to actually start moving your Marines around (and the cover save method encouraged this).


You and I will just have to agree to disagree on this part because tanks moved agonizingly slow in 3rd - infantry could actually outrun them!

Terminators used defensively in 2nd were something of a waste, and typically would only be deployed that way because either the player was overcautious or they were defending a critical mission objective (i.e. Take and Hold or Bunker Assault)

Either way, they were much diminished in 3rd and my Terminators collected dust because they simply weren't worth the points for what they did. Assault marines sans jump packs were just as effective as counter-punchers (particularly when backed by a Chaplain and riding around in a Marine-slaying Razorback).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/05 01:35:14


Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles?  Try Conqueror: Fields of Victory.

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Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Very incorrect! A Land Raider during 2nd edition was 220 points . . . compared to the starting price of a Tactical Squads 300. Add a Missile Launcher, Flamer and Powerfist you're looking at a 370ish point unit to the Land Raiders 220 (+5 for Auto Launchers) 225.


I was referring to the points cost of the Land Raider and the Terminators combined, which made for one very expensive (if durable) maneuver element.

Assault Marines could not get Power Weapons in 3rd edition. Only the Sergeant got to upgrade his Chainsword. Blood Angels Honour Guard could get Power Weapons, but that's a different beast.


The combat was abstracted, though, so if you had a power weapon in contact, it could kill people it wasn't touching, so if you took a veteran sergeant with power weapon and pistol, terminator honors and also a character with a power weapon, one could scythe through just about anything - at least for a while.


No, they couldn't just camp in cover anymore, but the 3rd edition paradigm was the era in which you had to actually start moving your Marines around (and the cover save method encouraged this).


You and I will just have to agree to disagree on this part because tanks moved agonizingly slow in 3rd - infantry could actually outrun them!

Terminators used defensively in 2nd were something of a waste, and typically would only be deployed that way because either the player was overcautious or they were defending a critical mission objective (i.e. Take and Hold or Bunker Assault)

Either way, they were much diminished in 3rd and my Terminators collected dust because they simply weren't worth the points for what they did. Assault marines sans jump packs were just as effective as counter-punchers (particularly when backed by a Chaplain and riding around in a Marine-slaying Razorback).

Well I think one has to admit that bringing a character alongside your Assault Squad is quite a different thing than bringing an Assault Squad alone. May as well bring the same character along with the Terminators at that point.

The abstracted combat actually worked very well for the Terminators if you coordinated your assaults well. If you charged against a unit with a sergeant, the play was to stick a secondary squad (like Tacticals) against the sergeant. Then the sergeant could only strike against the PA guys, and the Terminators could weather the mook atracks with their 2+ saves. Then the Terminators struck with the full force of all those Powerfist attacks. The matchup meant that the opposing sergeant can't hit the Terminators, but the Terminator attacks carried through to the sarge. Win/win.

Not sure why you bring up tank movement.

I understand that Terminators in 3rd weren't as shiny as they were in 2nd. But imo they did bring their own, if slightly different, utility. They were really good in 4th ed, with the Assault Cannon upgrade and the ability to bring two of them in a 5 man squad.

It also seems worth mentioning that Terminators in 2nd had their durability 'increased' because you could just screen them, since you could only shoot the closest squad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/05 03:34:31


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Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
A far batter option was a tactical squad maxed out on plasma/meltas and then assault marines sans jump packs with power weapons.

Not only did you get more tactical options, they were far more survivable - which was utterly insane.

Didn't 3rd also turn all those Power Weapons into generic close combat weapons?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The biggest drawback to Terminators was movement.

They could teleport, yes. But that was 50% of the unit’s points (unless Abaddon was in your list). They could ride in Landraider, except those weren’t actually sold during 2nd Ed.

It wasn't sold for most of 2E, but the new Landraider kit did eventually come out for 2E (I think) and you could put them in there. Though it may have been later. I have memories of Calgar and some Terminators in a Land Raider, but no memory of the edition or his armor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
True on the cost, and you’d think I’d constantly remember transporting troops in 2nd Ed was risky at best, but no 😂😂

I remember transporting in 2E to be much less risky than now. It took a "lucky" shot to destroy in 2E, now it just takes enough normal shots.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/02/05 04:12:14


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
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NE Ohio, USA

Breton wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The biggest drawback to Terminators was movement.

They could teleport, yes. But that was 50% of the unit’s points (unless Abaddon was in your list). They could ride in Landraider, except those weren’t actually sold during 2nd Ed.

It wasn't sold for most of 2E, but the new Landraider kit did eventually come out for 2E (I think) and you could put them in there. Though it may have been later. I have memories of Calgar and some Terminators in a Land Raider, but no memory of the edition or his armor.


The new Landraider arrived in '99. A little less than a year into 3e.
   
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ccs wrote:
Breton wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The biggest drawback to Terminators was movement.

They could teleport, yes. But that was 50% of the unit’s points (unless Abaddon was in your list). They could ride in Landraider, except those weren’t actually sold during 2nd Ed.

It wasn't sold for most of 2E, but the new Landraider kit did eventually come out for 2E (I think) and you could put them in there. Though it may have been later. I have memories of Calgar and some Terminators in a Land Raider, but no memory of the edition or his armor.


The new Landraider arrived in '99. A little less than a year into 3e.


Maybe we played 2E longer, or maybe I'm remembering 5E or something when Terminators weren't as bad. I dunno.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
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Upstate, New York

Terminators were never really “bad” but they were often an inefficient use of the points to get jobs done. I fielded them all the time and was generally happy with them. But due to other, more effective/efficient options, they got slandered as hot garbage.

TH/SS were considered decent more of the time than basic tactical terminators. A lot of that can be laid at the feet of the 3++ which gave them the resilience they always claimed to have.

Core codex assault marines could have plasma pistols on 2 guys per squad (even 5 man) I’m not sure they could take flamers in 3rd. If you were allowed you wouldn’t, as the plasma pistols were only 5 points and a no brainer. Only power weapon was the sarge. SW/BA/DA might have had different options.

3rd was the time of the chaplain, at least around here. CC was a lot more viable, and they got all the toys (PW, invuln) for free. Almost no re-rolls back then, so his abilities let you leverage the reasonably low volume of attacks from the terminators power fists into a lot of death. To use an example relevant to this thread.

   
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At the risk of sounding curmudgeonly and “damn kids”? If you weren’t playing in 2nd Ed, you don’t know just how far they fell in 3rd.

They were points intensive, but as deadly as they were resilient. They felt like not just the Elite of the Elite, but the Elite of the Elite of the Elite.

Being a Veteran wasn’t enough, you had to show yourself good enough to get the training to wear Terminator Armour.

Yes they would need support to prevent being completely swamped, but they could still happily punch their weight and then some. And when you lost them in battle, your army felt that loss.

And I don’t think my Rose Tinteds are particularly strong or vision skewing here. Yes they are absolutely on, but not to the point of nostalgic delusion.

Likewise Marine Dreadnoughts. They had better ranged weapons, could ignore the first jam on any sustained fire (but could still detonate their Assault Cannon), and could do a nifty rotate and tear attack in combat. Come 3rd Ed and they were lightly armoured, not terribly useful points sinks with very little special about them.

But in terms of openness, I do consider 3rd and to some extent 4th the Editions that threw baby out with the bath water. Much as I adore 2nd Ed, it was a messy arsed game that was overly complex. But man did the design team go waaaaay too far.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/02/05 14:04:28


   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

I do miss that some weapons were Terminator-exclusive. Without that they don’t serve much purpose in some editions, other than cool factor.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
 
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