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 Tyran wrote:
The IoM can put fusion reactors into handheld rifle sized guns (meltas) with enough power to melt tanks.

Their energy technology is millennia ahead of ours.

Strictly speaking Meltas shoot microwaves.

Why do I feel if you told an Ork Mek that they'd create you a gun that launches actual microwaves at high speed towards the enemy. Think Fallout Junkjets but with kitchen appliances.

Because that would kick ass? 😂


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Seems they’ve changed the background on Meltas. 2nd Ed they used microwaves. Now it seems it is indeed fusion.

Booooo!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Because that would kick ass? 😂

Seems they’ve changed the background on Meltas. 2nd Ed they used microwaves. Now it seems it is indeed fusion.

Booooo!

It happens. My 2nd ed wargear books specifically says that bolters use caseless ammo (which was all the hotness when the rules were written). So what are those brass tubular things flying out of the ejector ports in all the artwork?

mithril2098 wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:In Guant's Ghosts overuse of long las requires you to regularly replace the barrels. So that could be another drawback of laser sniper rifles. In a pitched battle you have to bring like a dozen barrels with you.

especially when using the Hot-shot load, which pumps a whole magazine's worth of energy through in one shot, making the weapon more useful agaisnt heavily armored targets or ultra long range. though we usually only see Larkin and the other Tanith marksmen use those during assassination ops and other uncommon situations. most of the time they seem to use standard magazines and the main advantage of a long-las is the extra range and accuracy. (though many of the Tanith carry physical shell weapons as unofficial backups. Larkin has a bolt action rifle for example. this is sometimes brought up in the earlier novels whenever they run low on lasgun charges, or when in transit on a ship and their official kit is locked up)

Yes, plus he was basically rapid firing his Sniper Rifle IIRC which is not exactly normal sniper work.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Because that would kick ass? 😂

Seems they’ve changed the background on Meltas. 2nd Ed they used microwaves. Now it seems it is indeed fusion.

Booooo!

It happens. My 2nd ed wargear books specifically says that bolters use caseless ammo (which was all the hotness when the rules were written). So what are those brass tubular things flying out of the ejector ports in all the artwork?

Do they? Where! Please where! I have searched so long through RT and 2nd Ed stuff to try and find any reference to caseless bolters and always come up short!

They used to be caseless, but newer material has ditched that aspect. They clearly are cased ammunition now.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
In Guant's Ghosts overuse of long las requires you to regularly replace the barrels. So that could be another drawback of laser sniper rifles. In a pitched battle you have to bring like a dozen barrels with you.

This is commonplace with projectile weapons too.

 Flinty wrote:
Do they? Where! Please where! I have searched so long through RT and 2nd Ed stuff to try and find any reference to caseless bolters and always come up short!

In the yellow Wargear book, autoguns are explicitly said to use caseless ammunition whereas bolters are said to shoot "bolt missiles."

This is clearly a reference to the Gyrojet gun from the 60s in which the bottom of the casing had vent holes for the rocket motor. The whole projectile exited the weapon through the barrel.

So, not technically caseless, but there would be no casing ejected when it fired. Obviously that has been changed.

This entry?



I don’t think it’s particularly definitive about being caseless, and I think is more clear as a reference for having cased ammo.

 Flinty wrote:
Not sure that las sniper weapons have visible beams. If they do, the shot will be so instantaneous it is unlikely to be any worse than muzzle flash from a conventional firearm.

Then there are needle weapons that combine handy bits of both technologies

Marine scouts used to use these. Did they get retconned at some point?

This was back in second ed when there was much more ubiquitous war gear. Everyone had chainswords and orks had bolters.

But the main thing with the needle rifle was it was tooooooo deadly. Except to space marines of course because it couldn’t penetrate their armour. Pretty much 2nd ed all over. However if the needle couldn’t do any damage it did the damage of a standard las rifle so the laser wasn’t just a delivery method


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Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
Do they? Where! Please where! I have searched so long through RT and 2nd Ed stuff to try and find any reference to caseless bolters and always come up short!

In the yellow Wargear book, autoguns are explicitly said to use caseless ammunition whereas bolters are said to shoot "bolt missiles."

This is clearly a reference to the Gyrojet gun from the 60s in which the bottom of the casing had vent holes for the rocket motor. The whole projectile exited the weapon through the barrel.

So, not technically caseless, but there would be no casing ejected when it fired. Obviously that has been changed.

I miss the yellow warhead book

 Flinty wrote:
This entry?

I don’t think it’s particularly definitive about being caseless, and I think is more clear as a reference for having cased ammo.

No, the bolt pistol (p. 14) says they fire the same kind of "explosive bolt missile." It also notes that it has the "same penetrating power" as the larger version but shorter range. That's also indicative of a rocket warhead rather than bullet, where penetration is very much sensitive to range since it relies on velocity.

Rockets would not come with a casing - the whole package would leave the tube.

Look at the picture. There's no ejection port on the boltgun, nor is there a slide or any way for the action to cycle. The rounds feed up into the magazine and are detonated in turn. There could be a primer that ignites the rocket, and this might be enough to reset the trigger and striker or hammer.

The cover art show two boltguns being fired and no casings are flying out. Later on they changed it.

-Guardsman- wrote:
Some of the Imperium's sniper rifles shoot lasers, others shoot bullets. At first glance, laser is by far the most advantageous, since you don't have to account for gravity, wind, recoil, or the velocity of the projectile. Yet in the fluff, most snipers seem to use bullets.

If you think about it, there is a good reason for that. The laser rifle has a major weakness: each shot reveals your exact position, as if you were firing tracer bullets. This allows the enemy to easily return fire.

So I have a bit of a headcanon about that. I imagine that those armies that train their soldiers quickly and care nothing about their individual lives (Valhallans, penal legions, etc.) favor the laser sniper rifle. Those that devote a lot of time to training their soldiers (Cadians, Space Marines, Vindicare temple) favor the projectile sniper rifle: longer to learn and not as accurate, but at least your snipers have a much lower turnover rate. This can make a massive difference in protracted campaigns, especially when reinforcements are hard to come by.

.

i've not read much outside of dan abnett in regards to guard infantry novels, but other than chaos cultists i dont think i've ever read a sniper using solid rounds in the lore...

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
This entry?

I don’t think it’s particularly definitive about being caseless, and I think is more clear as a reference for having cased ammo.

No, the bolt pistol (p. 14) says they fire the same kind of "explosive bolt missile." It also notes that it has the "same penetrating power" as the larger version but shorter range. That's also indicative of a rocket warhead rather than bullet, where penetration is very much sensitive to range since it relies on velocity.

Rockets would not come with a casing - the whole package would leave the tube.

Look at the picture. There's no ejection port on the boltgun, nor is there a slide or any way for the action to cycle. The rounds feed up into the magazine and are detonated in turn. There could be a primer that ignites the rocket, and this might be enough to reset the trigger and striker or hammer.

The cover art show two boltguns being fired and no casings are flying out. Later on they changed it.

Ah, I get you now. Fair points all, but the lack of ejection port doesn’t mean caseless, as you still need some way of ejecting a dud round. Also the bolter entry makes it clear that something ejects the missile from the barrel before the rocket motor kicks in.

Also, rtb01 bolters had a thing that looked like an ejection port, and so did the 2nd edition marines with the metal bodies and plastic arms and bolters. I agree that some of the art shows a distinct lack of ejecting brass at that time, but to me that’s circumstantial as games workshop has never really known how guns actually work, especially on the artwork side. However; Codex Angels of Death has brass spewing all over the place, even without apparent ejection ports.



Yerg, amd the brass is so massively out of scale with the weapon and the calibre…

 Flinty wrote:
Ah, I get you now. Fair points all, but the lack of ejection port doesn’t mean caseless, as you still need some way of ejecting a dud round. Also the bolter entry makes it clear that something ejects the missile from the barrel before the rocket motor kicks in.

Yeah, I wasn't clear on this above. I'm not saying it doesn't have a primer, it probably does and the primer might be particularly stout so that it both ignites the rocket motor and throws the round out of the weapon to prevent jams. However, there's no need for the casing to be left behind - it would go with the rest of the missile.

Also, rtb01 bolters had a thing that looked like an ejection port, and so did the 2nd edition marines with the metal bodies and plastic arms and bolters. I agree that some of the art shows a distinct lack of ejecting brass at that time, but to me that’s circumstantial as games workshop has never really known how guns actually work, especially on the artwork side. However; Codex Angels of Death has brass spewing all over the place, even without apparent ejection ports.

Yerg, amd the brass is so massively out of scale with the weapon and the calibre…

LOL, those are .455 Webley casings! I never noticed that before! Another dakkadakka moment!

It's clear to me that GW was trying to think of "futuristic" weapons, and when it came to small arms there were two obvious candidates: caseless ammunition using conventional powder, and Gyrojet (tm) rocket-guns. Clearly that's what bolters were intended to be, and that explains the weird language surrounding them.

Ok, I have been doing some digging.

The last references to Space Marine Scout sniper rifles being needle rifles that I can find are in second edition. However, I can find no source since that states an alternative type of fire (Lexicanum states Scout snipers fire heavy bullets and cites the 5th edition SM codex, but I can find no reference to this in the actual book, only to the accuracy and high-power scopes of the weapons). Furthermore, the current Scout sniper rifles are very clearly similar designs to the old metal Scouts with snipers, which were explicitly labelled as needle rifles on some blister packs. They also have a heavy cable feed suggesting the main mechanism of action is energy based, not a heavy solid projectile.

Ergo, it appears to still be canon that Space Marine Scouts prefer needle rifle snipers for battlefield work, although the benefits over a longlas are apparently not enough to generate a different stat-band for multiple editions of the game.

Of course, I'd be happy to see any citations to the contrary to update this.

-Guardsman- wrote:
If you think about it, there is a good reason for that. The laser rifle has a major weakness: each shot reveals your exact position, as if you were firing tracer bullets. This allows the enemy to easily return fire.
.

Is this canon? Lasers are typically not visible unless they're firing right into your eye, or there's a whole lot of smoke/moisture in the air.

Lasguns are varied in description. In the Cain novels he describes crimson bolts.

As I’ve said, Lasguns just don’t seem to be lasers by the proper scientific description.

What happened to the laser delivered needle?

Hecaton wrote:

-Guardsman- wrote:
If you think about it, there is a good reason for that. The laser rifle has a major weakness: each shot reveals your exact position, as if you were firing tracer bullets. This allows the enemy to easily return fire.
.

Is this canon? Lasers are typically not visible unless they're firing right into your eye, or there's a whole lot of smoke/moisture in the air.

In the 2nd ed. Wargear book it explicitly says that the needle rifle uses an invisible laser beam.

 Daba wrote:
What happened to the laser delivered needle?

Yes, that's in the description as well but the illustration of the weapon shows two barrels in an over-under configuration beneath the scope.

Presumably the needle is "laser-guided" because its has its own chamber, barrel and therefore propellant.

I can find nothing to contradict that SM Scout snipers are still needle rifles. They have a single barrel and look like a longlas, so different forms of needle rifle exist.

An even as a Scout, their physiology will be larger than baseline human, requiring Astartes scale weapons.

 Haighus wrote:
I can find nothing to contradict that SM Scout snipers are still needle rifles. They have a single barrel and look like a longlas, so different forms of needle rifle exist.

One could wrap the two barrels in a single outer casing to better protect them and make a handier weapon.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

-Guardsman- wrote:
If you think about it, there is a good reason for that. The laser rifle has a major weakness: each shot reveals your exact position, as if you were firing tracer bullets. This allows the enemy to easily return fire.
.

Is this canon? Lasers are typically not visible unless they're firing right into your eye, or there's a whole lot of smoke/moisture in the air.

In the 2nd ed. Wargear book it explicitly says that the needle rifle uses an invisible laser beam.

 Daba wrote:
What happened to the laser delivered needle?

Yes, that's in the description as well but the illustration of the weapon shows two barrels in an over-under configuration beneath the scope.

Presumably the needle is "laser-guided" because its has its own chamber, barrel and therefore propellant.

The entry states "... which drives and guides the chemical dart to its target." suggesting otherwise, but the illustration does clearly have 2 cylinders in the usual happy random way that GW designs its weapons


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Hah... the Rogue Trader entry even has a positive armour save modifier due to the terrible ability of the weapon to penetrate clothing