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I’d argue the Ecclesiarchy, when it comes to Psykers, is purposefully, and perhaps necessarily, hypocritical.

Psykers are dangerous. And even a low level, completely untrained psyker, is a greater risk for warp breach than a super powerful but well trained and disciplined Psyker.

This is one of the most perverse things about 40K and The Imperium. It’s a horrific, toleration state where life is cheap, short and nasty. But, unlike modern/historical analogous regimes? Everything the Imperium tells its populace to hate and fear isn’t just real, but an existential threat.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’d argue the Ecclesiarchy, when it comes to Psykers, is purposefully, and perhaps necessarily, hypocritical.

Psykers are dangerous. And even a low level, completely untrained psyker, is a greater risk for warp breach than a super powerful but well trained and disciplined Psyker.

This is one of the most perverse things about 40K and The Imperium. It’s a horrific, toleration state where life is cheap, short and nasty. But, unlike modern/historical analogous regimes? Everything the Imperium tells its populace to hate and fear isn’t just real, but an existential threat.

Yes, but that doesn't mean the only or best way to deal with those things is to be a horrific, totalitarian state. The point of 40k as asetting is that even the most absurdly severe threats still don't justify the methods of the Imperium.

It’s primitive stop-gap emergency measures stuck on repeat for sure.

So from all the lore I've gathered thus far relating to this, the Sisters are buddy buddy with the Templars who are Astartes with the same vision of Big E.

Furthermore, I hear even some of the Templars reject the Primaris and or crossing the Rubicon as blasphemy upon the perfection of the emperor's firstborn creation.

Correct if wrong.

 alextroy wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Common man, you are like the arbiter of neutrality on lore issues. Tell me the books don't have sisters manifesting miracles on command. Surviving point blank Tachyon arrows, making physically impossible leaps, gaining enhanced strength just by invoking prayer, and my favorite, becoming able to defeat pykers when invoking or reading the texts of their saint.

You must be reading different Black Library books than me. I've never seen a Sister of Battle manifest a miracle on command in any the books I've read.

I'm not saying miracles don't happen, but they don't happen because a character wills them into life like some psychic power. Instead, they are key moments that always surprise the Sister in question, often leaving them wondering why me or how did that happen?

This. They're not anime characters shouting prayer names to activate magic effects. They pray hard because that's kind of just what they're doing 90% of the time anyway, and every so often those prayers happen to be answered.

A sister who needs to jump across a pit might pray before making the jump. That prayer might even manifest a psychosomatic response that releases some adrenaline or something. But the sister probably isn't literally expecting to suddenly gain supernatural jumping ability.

The closest thing I can recall to sisters "actively" using miracles is a scene in a book where they basically Deny the Witch what is basically a Smite by praying really loudly. But they're praying because they're in a situation where their weapons aren't a feasible option, and they vaguely understand that they can counter psychic phenomena with prayer the same way a Hollywood priest might sometimes manage to hold back a vampire.

 Adeptekon wrote:
So from all the lore I've gathered thus far relating to this, the Sisters are buddy buddy with the Templars who are Astartes with the same vision of Big E.

Furthermore, I hear even some of the Templars reject the Primaris and or crossing the Rubicon as blasphemy upon the perfection of the emperor's firstborn creation.

Correct if wrong.

The Sororitas and Black Templars do share a love of fire and zealous devotion to the God Emperor but the Templars who rejected the Primaris were an isolated Crusade who were already a bit nuts. The wider Chapter accepted them after the High Marshall had a discussion with Guilliman and then he prayed for a bit. Helbrecht was actually only worried that Guilliman was going to censure the Chapter for not complying with the Codex Astartes.

as i understand it, most sisters view astartes as angels, custodes even more so, primarchs demi-gods.

i don't know how a SoB can view the astartes as anything but holy figures, considering they're the genetic sons of the primarchs, who themselves were created by the emperor.

honestly sounds like the book is either setting up the cannoness to fall in some manner, or it's just really bad writing in order to create internal conflict amongst the imperial side to 'keep things interesting'
or the author doesn't really know much about the 40k universe.

johnpjones1775 wrote:
as i understand it, most sisters view astartes as angels, custodes even more so, primarchs demi-gods.

i don't know how a SoB can view the astartes as anything but holy figures, considering they're the genetic sons of the primarchs, who themselves were created by the emperor.

honestly sounds like the book is either setting up the cannoness to fall in some manner, or it's just really bad writing in order to create internal conflict amongst the imperial side to 'keep things interesting'
or the author doesn't really know much about the 40k universe.

There have been various occassions where the Sororitas were less than happy with Astartes chapters - eg The Flesh-tearers slaughtered anyone and anything in their way including civilians caused one Cannoness to report it to the Inquisition IIRC.

They are also aware that many many Astartes have fallen to Chaos over the millenia

On the other hand they are the creations of the Emperor and worthy of veneration. So I think they see them as Angles but are all too awarre that they can become Fallen Angels

Expecting indoctrination to apply consistent and logical definitions for what is to be hated forgets why indoctrination is needed in the first place.

It may be headcanon, but I feel that sisters thinking of Astartes as "Angels" is way off base.

Sisters are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus, the fist of the Ecclesiarchary and their Abbess is an F-ing Highlord of Terra.

They know things about things.

While it's true that Marines are rare, the fall of Cadia, the Cicatrix Maledictum and the subsequent Indomitas Crusade have all forced various Imperial organizations together.

Rules-wise, we've had Torchbearer Fleets and Armies of Faith to empower players to duplicate the lore as depicted in fiction. Since the rift, I'd say most Imperial forces have been a part of combined operations.

And there is super clear evidence that Faith is NOT a psychic ability: the Necron Pylons of the Pariah Nexus crippled psychic abilities, but Acts of Faith were unaffected.

PenitentJake wrote:
And there is super clear evidence that Faith is NOT a psychic ability: the Necron Pylons of the Pariah Nexus crippled psychic abilities, but Acts of Faith were unaffected.

So there is a God.

PenitentJake wrote:
And there is super clear evidence that Faith is NOT a psychic ability: the Necron Pylons of the Pariah Nexus crippled psychic abilities, but Acts of Faith were unaffected.

GW is nothing if not incosistant with this - When Cadia was falling, the Blackstone did affect the Sororitas

johnpjones1775 wrote:
i don't know how a SoB can view the astartes as anything but holy figures, considering they're the genetic sons of the primarchs, who themselves were created by the emperor.

The Astartes are a really varied bunch. While some are exemplars of what it means to be a Space Marine, such as the Imperial Fists or Ultramarines, there are others who at times are monsters, such as the Flesh Tearers or Black Dragons. It also tends to be that the two Imperial institutions that tend to beef with the Astartes are the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy, often for reasons of power or what they consider to be "removing Heresy".
Most Chapters don't worship the Emperor so when a particularly zealous Cardinal comes to power, sometimes they pick fights with the "heathen" Space Marines to bring them into the God Emperor's light.

So it's kinda become cannon now, that the Emperor is a "god" in the 40k Eldar strictest sense of the word. They basically declare him one in the newest book. Then again, they also declare Bobby G a god.

Point is, if he is a god, then the Sisters manifesting miracles with their faith isn't that far of a leap. And if they are doing that, then it calls into question how. If it's not warp, as has been hinted at already with the "blackstone" on Cadia, then it's a new form of never before declared ability that only THEY can do. Which makes THEM the mutant freaks.

Point being, the entirety of the Sisterhood is one giant hypocrisy. In all things.

Finally, their disdain for the Emperor's servants (all of them) is just a badly written meme at this point. Their disdain for the Astartes is even more hilarious considering the Ebon Challice has recorded instances of "fallen sisters". The Sisters of the Night I believe?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So it's kinda become cannon now, that the Emperor is a "god" in the 40k Eldar strictest sense of the word. They basically declare him one in the newest book. Then again, they also declare Bobby G a god.

Point is, if he is a god, then the Sisters manifesting miracles with their faith isn't that far of a leap. And if they are doing that, then it calls into question how. If it's not warp, as has been hinted at already with the "blackstone" on Cadia, then it's a new form of never before declared ability that only THEY can do. Which makes THEM the mutant freaks.

So if you've confirmed the God-hood, then you have the answer, it's Big E doing the miracles and it's no leap of faith because he protects which means they aren't mutants.

Well, one have to be, it's a binary thing. Either the Astartes are mutants, or the Sisters are.

The Sisters believe the Astartes are mutants, and some are. The Sisters have the favor of their god. Therefor the sisters are right, and the Astartes are mutants and possibly heretical to their faith. This is a logical step. The presence of the Primarchs lead me to "believe" that the Primarchs are technically "Gods" and they affect the warp in their own ways. They are kinda Thors to Odin's over arching 1 true god. Thus they exist as gods, but do not believe in their own divinity, I guess? Like, Hercules doesn't believe he's a god, he just knows he's really strong and fast.

I dunno. When I start to apply logic to 40k's god system, I get a head ache.

 Adeptekon wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So it's kinda become cannon now, that the Emperor is a "god" in the 40k Eldar strictest sense of the word. They basically declare him one in the newest book. Then again, they also declare Bobby G a god.

Point is, if he is a god, then the Sisters manifesting miracles with their faith isn't that far of a leap. And if they are doing that, then it calls into question how. If it's not warp, as has been hinted at already with the "blackstone" on Cadia, then it's a new form of never before declared ability that only THEY can do. Which makes THEM the mutant freaks.

So if you've confirmed the God-hood, then you have the answer, it's Big E doing the miracles and it's no leap of faith because he protects which means they aren't mutants.

A few additional thoughts

1) We don't have it confirmed that the Emperor is a God in the Warp. He might be, but he might be something else, there's also potential that the Emperor could be fully dead and there's a warp entity that has usurped his belief for its own ends. So there's still twists and turns that could happen there.

2) We know that the Tyranid Hive Mind is basically a warp-like entity/element and yet it repels the natural demons of the Warp. So it might be that the Blackstone influences certain kinds of Warp Energy that the main 4 Gods are attuned too. This leaves the door open for Blackstone having different to no impact on energies from the likes of Tyranids, Orks and the Emperor (or whatever being in the warp is giving faith powers to the Sisters).

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Well, one have to be, it's a binary thing. Either the Astartes are mutants, or the Sisters are.

There is no requirement for Sororitas to be mutants in order for the Imperial Creed to be hypocritical because hating mutants isn't why it is hypocritical. The hypocrisy of the Imperial Creed comes from the fact that it worships a being who outlawed religion and actively preached atheism.

The Sisters believe the Astartes are mutants, and some are. The Sisters have the favor of their god. Therefor the sisters are right, and the Astartes are mutants and possibly heretical to their faith. This is a logical step. The presence of the Primarchs lead me to "believe" that the Primarchs are technically "Gods" and they affect the warp in their own ways. They are kinda Thors to Odin's over arching 1 true god. Thus they exist as gods, but do not believe in their own divinity, I guess? Like, Hercules doesn't believe he's a god, he just knows he's really strong and fast.

The Sororitas alone do not have the "favour" of the Emperor as has been shown in multiple examples of Saints not being Sisters or generic Imperial citizens manifesting non-psychic abilities seemingly channeling the power of the Emperor.
And yeah the Astartes are heretics by many standards of the Ecclesiarchy because Chapters are a largely secular (if spiritual) group that denies the divinity of the Emperor and some have genetic mutations that normal humans don't.
Your logic is entirely flawed as well. Just because some Sororitas can manifest "miracles", doesn't mean they are automatically right in their beliefs because an Astartes might look at the ability to channel the Emperor's power and just go "Yeah he can do that, he's a powerful being, still not a god".

 Adeptekon wrote:
So from all the lore I've gathered thus far relating to this, the Sisters are buddy buddy with the Templars who are Astartes with the same vision of Big E.

Furthermore, I hear even some of the Templars reject the Primaris and or crossing the Rubicon as blasphemy upon the perfection of the emperor's firstborn creation.

Correct if wrong.

That Primaris thing is some 4chan crap that has no basis in actual lore. Y'all forget Helbrecht just GOT a Primaris model?

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Adeptekon wrote:
So from all the lore I've gathered thus far relating to this, the Sisters are buddy buddy with the Templars who are Astartes with the same vision of Big E.

Furthermore, I hear even some of the Templars reject the Primaris and or crossing the Rubicon as blasphemy upon the perfection of the emperor's firstborn creation.

Correct if wrong.

That Primaris thing is some 4chan crap that has no basis in actual lore. Y'all forget Helbrecht just GOT a Primaris model?

I was out crusading when that happened.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

And if they are doing that, then it calls into question how. If it's not warp, as has been hinted at already with the "blackstone" on Cadia, then it's a new form of never before declared ability that only THEY can do.

Well, no. That's not necessarily true.

I've pitched this headcanon in the Background section of the forum before, but it seems like there are quite a few supernatural phenomena/abilities in 40k that aren't "psychic" per se. Or at least, abilities that are psychic in a different way than is generally associated with psykers.

You've got acts of faith, the more magical/physics-breaking exarch powers, mandrake baleblasts, red paint making things go faster, and Talos's totally "not" psychic visions of the future among others. Many (but not all) of these abilities seem to be tied to the minds of those who manifest them. Acts of Faith seem to mostly only work around particularly faithful individuals who spend a lot of time among other fatihful individuals. Red paint only works for orks who tend to live around lots of other orks and who all know on a bone-deep level that red paint *does* make things go faster. Eldar exarchs are members of an extremely psychic species and are notably fixated on one very specific and poetic combat philosophy; so they believe in their teachings on a bone-deep level like orks, and they probably functionally have the same warp presence as a whole bunch of orks combined.

So what I'm getting at is there seems to be the "psyker" style of warp phenomena that we think of when it comes to psychic tests, being impacted by culexus assassins, etc., and then you have the second "belief-driven" style of weird phenomena that may or may not be impacted by anti-psychic effects (they aren't on the tabletop), but which definitely aren't generally thought of as "psyker powers" in-universe. Like, a fire dragon exarch with the right exarch power can apparently light his hands on fire and punch through ceramite, but other eldar don't think of him as being a seer. Sometimes magic stuff just happens.

So regardless of whether or not the Emprah is a god, sisters could just be tapping into this belief-based phenomenon. Which might academically be a psychic effect but doesn't seem to rely on them being psykers to pull off.

Astartes don't think of the Emperor as a God because he's also their father. But what of it? Maybe the Emperor is more than a mere God to them (he's not just an imagined reason to their existence, but a real one). Sororitas ever thought of that?

Nothing in this thread still convinces me that Astartes would be seen as mutants. A mutant suggests something irregular/deviant manifesting organically; Nothing in Astartes posthumanism manifests organically, it's artificially created. Marines are basically like an intricate weapon created with an unlimited budget; Abomination perhaps, but only to the enemies of the Imperium. It's like saying an artificer Bolter is a mutant. Makes no sense

Marines = symbol of Imperium's technological might

Personally, I don't automatically take all BL fiction as "canon". Some of the writers have their own axes to grind, and base things on their (sometimes fast and loose) personal interpretations of the foundations. And some of it is just contradictionary.

One might also point to the DoW book, where the girl who is "embodying" the Emperor, or vice versa, not sure how you say it, but the Sister of Silence guarding her needed to be killed before the Emperor could manifest in her, which was the big divine Miracle. So the power of a blank can directly interfere with Miracles, and that makes the presumption that "miracles" are subject to the same laws and rules as Warp magic.

Worth noting that null effects are not infallible and vary in potency. For example, blanks are painful, potentially lethally so, for most psykers to touch, but they can usually tolerate standing close- the null field fades over distance. It can also be overcome with a sufficiently strong warp assault. For a specific example from the Eisenhorn series: . Daemons can still kill nulls.

So the Emperor, being a monstrously powerful psychic entity juiced up by a ten thousand-strong psychic choir and the prayers of a galactic empire of humans, may be capable of projecting warp power into null areas unless the recipient is too close to a null source for even this. This could account for some of the inconsistencies above. We also know the Emperor's light fades the further out from Terra- Cadia may have been too far and/or disrupted by the Eye for Acts of Faith to work, whereas the Nephil im zone may have closer to Terra and His light brighter and more able to act through His most devout minions.

The Cadian Pylons were also altered by Cawl and Trazyn to the point where they had enough power to close the Eye of Terror.
Regardless, Fezzik has yet to provide any evidence barring speculation that their assertations are correct.

 Gert wrote:
The Cadian Pylons were also altered by Cawl and Trazyn to the point where they had enough power to close the Eye of Terror.
Regardless, Fezzik has yet to provide any evidence barring speculation that their assertations are correct.

Which supports the idea that Acts of Faith are channelling the Emperor's psychic might through the Warp, and the Emperor's power is such that only the strongest of Warp-nullifying effects can block it.

Edit: oh, yeah. Not sure what Fezzik's argument is, that Sisters are mutants because they can act as conduits for the Emperor? By that measure all non-blanks are mutants, because any ordinary human can be boosted by the powers of a friendly psyker.

tauist wrote:Astartes don't think of the Emperor as a God because he's also their father. But what of it? Maybe the Emperor is more than a mere God to them (he's not just an imagined reason to their existence, but a real one). Sororitas ever thought of that?

I'm pretty sure sororitas don't generally consider the Emperor "imaginary," nor do I think they spend much time practicing the empathy needed to consider the points of views of others.

Nothing in this thread still convinces me that Astartes would be seen as mutants. A mutant suggests something irregular/deviant manifesting organically; Nothing in Astartes posthumanism manifests organically, it's artificially created. Marines are basically like an intricate weapon created with an unlimited budget; Abomination perhaps, but only to the enemies of the Imperium. It's like saying an artificer Bolter is a mutant. Makes no sense

Marines = symbol of Imperium's technological might

Personally, I don't automatically take all BL fiction as "canon". Some of the writers have their own axes to grind, and base things on their (sometimes fast and loose) personal interpretations of the foundations. And some of it is just contradictionary.

I think "abomination" is a better descriptor for the sentiment people are referring to. The point people are making is that marines look weird and are a deviation from the accepted human norm. In the same sense that ratlings are "too small," marines are considered too big, uncanny, and too full of weird organs. If ratlings (basically hobbits) can inspire disgust in baseline humans, then so can scarred-up, centuries old, weirdly-proportioned, moves-too-fast-for-its-size, acid-spitting marines. Just because you think marines should represent the technological might of the imperium doesn't mean a brainwashed zealot from a society that hates physical abnormalities is going to agree with you.

Haighus wrote:

 Gert wrote:
The Cadian Pylons were also altered by Cawl and Trazyn to the point where they had enough power to close the Eye of Terror.
Regardless, Fezzik has yet to provide any evidence barring speculation that their assertations are correct.

Which supports the idea that Acts of Faith are channelling the Emperor's psychic might through the Warp, and the Emperor's power is such that only the strongest of Warp-nullifying effects can block it.

Edit: oh, yeah. Not sure what Fezzik's argument is, that Sisters are mutants because they can act as conduits for the Emperor? By that measure all non-blanks are mutants, because any ordinary human can be boosted by the powers of a friendly psyker.

As I understood it, Fezzik was arguing that sisters have to literally be psykers in order to manifest acts of faith and other "miraculous" phenomena.

Was it mentioned who the Canoness was? Maybe this is really about the Flesh Tearers. And the genetic flaws of marines in general. Certainly not the Templars.

And true anyone could be a conduit, don't forget holy relics.

It's in the book where the Sisters go back to retake a convent on a desert planet that also happens to be a storage shed for a millenia old Necron War base thing. They wake up the Necrons, and Sister Mariah (Sp) gets into an discussion with the cannonness, or Sister Verity does, about who will fight back against the threats of the Warp taint. She makes the point that the Astartes wont, calls them mutants, and basically says because they willingly admit "witches" into their ranks they are all tainted.

VERY simple summation, but still. My original point was "is this a widely held belief" among the sisters of battle, that the Astartes are "tainted mutants"? Because I personally believe the Sisters of battle have a blind spot to their own....taint. Not to mention the whole Sisters of the Darkness or whatever.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
It's in the book where the Sisters go back to retake a convent on a desert planet that also happens to be a storage shed for a millenia old Necron War base thing. They wake up the Necrons, and Sister Mariah (Sp) gets into an discussion with the cannonness, or Sister Verity does, about who will fight back against the threats of the Warp taint. She makes the point that the Astartes wont, calls them mutants, and basically says because they willingly admit "witches" into their ranks they are all tainted.

VERY simple summation, but still. My original point was "is this a widely held belief" among the sisters of battle, that the Astartes are "tainted mutants"? Because I personally believe the Sisters of battle have a blind spot to their own....taint. Not to mention the whole Sisters of the Darkness or whatever.

She must be talking about the atheists, sounds a bit bitter. I mean some Astartes can be pretty picky about who they help.