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In a few weeks Age of Wonders 4 (Fantasy strategy video game) will be released and this got me wondering, if it would be possible to enact the same changes that this gaming series went through in AoW3 (and it´s sci-fi sibling Planetfall) for a tabletop miniature game. What were those changes? In a nutshell the dissolution of a widely accepted concept regarding the culture of a Fantasy/Sci-fi race and the predisposition for good and evil acts however the morality aspect shouldn´t be the focus of this thread. An example would be that orcs were always presented as barbarians fond of looting and fighting in melee. After the change was enacted orcs (and every other playable race) could be played with any cultural background much like humans were treated in these aspects in the past.

Different cultures were visualized in the game via classes:
-Warlord (units excel in melee; weak magic spells)
-Sorcerer (units excel with ranged magical abilities; strong magic spells)
-Druid (summons all manners of wildlife; great mobility on strategic map)
-Rogue (weak combat units; good economy; spells focusing on deception)
-Necromancer (depending on the opposition weak or strong units)
-Theocrat (uncorruptible units; resurrection spells)
-Dreadnought (focus on strong mechanized units; weak magic)

So here comes my question: Would tabletop players be okay with a setting in which the fictional races could be combined with any one of the above mentioned classes (or even more which could be added to the list)? The results could be anything like bookish goblins being adept at the mastery of magic with the Sorcerer class or elves with a fondness for steampunk machinery with the Dreadnought class. As a result the setting would be less rigidly designed as your playing group dictates how the races act and behave.

The drawback for this freedom of choice would be a requirement for several additional types of models depending on your chosen class. Sorcerer models run around in hooded cloaks, Dreadnought infantry in platemail, etc. Or is this thought experiment heresy and the fictional races should adhere to a streamlined version of conduct such as educated, disciplined elves and brutish orcs?

Uh, I don't think race and class were ever mechanically tied and subverting expectations in gaming has been all the rage for like 20 years now.

Yup, first RPG I've ever played, Polish 'Crystals of Time' in the mid-90's already had Orcs as the dominating highly-civilised race running a huge empire, where humans were just one of the sub-species.

Oathmark is a little bit like this. You do have some specializations (goblins are weak, dwarfs are tough, Elves are good with bows) but you can ally them all and overall they all have pretty much the same units. You could have a kingdom of elves and orcs fighting a dwarven/Goblin kingdom.

Welcome to about 1995+ STR ALT.

Expectations for goblins, elves, orcs and even trolls are subverted all the time.

Oddly, dwarves are not. Even in settings that have subversive elves like Iron Kingdoms or Dragon Age dwarves are still usually the same old short bearded prideful folk who life inside mountains, mining and crafting.

In Eldar Scrolls lore, Dwarves are (were) Elves, highly adept at magic. That seems like a subversion.

Orcs are Elves too...

Unfortunately, Elves were quick out of the gate to get a good PR company, which is why they almost always seem to get the best presentation of any traditional fantasy race...

 Lord Damocles wrote:
In Eldar Scrolls lore, Dwarves are (were) Elves, highly adept at magic. That seems like a subversion.

Orcs are Elves too...

Well, In Elder Scrolls, they're (almost) all dead- and that is a subversion. Still not a good argument for the dwemer having equal PR to the other Mer.

On the other hand, the dwarven "magic" is experienced from a player's perspective in the form of all the well items and devices they crafted and exploring their underground cities. So while that might be among the most subversive portrayal of dwarves, it isn't all that far from expectations.

Dark Sun (D&D) took really an effort to change the races in a drastic way.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Dark Sun (D&D) took really an effort to change the races in a drastic way.

Agreed. Really cool take on the entire classic setting. From magic use, metal availability, gods and how they depicted the classic fantasy races.

I've heard this about DarkSun before but never played it.

I know it has some of its ow races. How does it change up the Tolkien races?

> Dark Sun (D&D) took really an effort to change the races in a drastic way.

Forgot the details (something about psychic abilities draining the planet?) but it seemed they were doing more than the usual "subversion for subversion's sake" than most attempts in generic fantasy.

D&D did the Dark Elves, but didn't pull off the dark dwarves (Duegar?) successfully. Why? Because with the new race of elves, they put some serious lore behind it, with Lolth, the spiders, and the Queen of the Demonweb series. You could also argue that D&D did it with dragons, too, who were mostly evil, or at least not oriented around the alignments. Pathfinder took goblins in the mischief direction, to the point where their Starfinder sf counterparts are more mischief than malicious.

 odinsgrandson wrote:
I've heard this about DarkSun before but never played it.

I know it has some of its ow races. How does it change up the Tolkien races?

Dark Sun was one of the best alternative settings made for D&D in my opinion.

As far as the Tolkien races:
Dwarves were hairless,still artisans usually (Edit: apparently not usually, just sometimes), but not norse-themed in any way. Also, they had to have a focus for their lives, which if unfulfilled at the time of their death, would turn them into a type of undead. Plus, they could interbreed with humans and produce offspring (called Muls).

Elves were lazy, untrustworthy, scavengers, raiders, and thieves. Edit: Also quite tall 7' -ish and not always good looking.

Halflings are feral, cannibalistic, tribal peoples. Also, if I remember correctly, they are the oldest race in the setting.

The Dragon was an ancient and powerful sorcerer who transformed himself into The Dragon (there was only one at the start).

It honestly was one of the biggest departures from Tolkien-like fantasy that came out of the early (2nd Edition) D&D era.

Edit: One of my absolute favorites. Now I need to dig out my copies of the books...

Okay, Darksun sounds really cool. I can see why people have been wanting it to show up in the new edition

I think it's worth mentioning that fantasy races being stereotypes is in many ways a useful convenience.

First off it's a reaction to the pulp fiction trope of 'savage foreigners'. Sometimes in heroic fiction you just want the hero to be able to lay into a bunch of villains without regard for their humanity. In pulp fiction those cannon fodder villains would usually be foreigners, I've seen Africans, Pacific Islanders, Tibetans, Picts and Eskimos (!!) used in this role.

Replacing real world groups with fictional orcs, goblins, drow, zombies etc allows writers to have their big action scene with no moral qualms.

Another advantage is the shared universe affect. When reading (watching, playing) a Tolkein-esque world 'Elf' is a useful shorthand that saves the writer pages of explaining who or what the Aelledarria are. Sure there's room for subversion, I remember a Gary Gygax novel with a psychotic and sadistic Elf thief, but a shared universe of common races gives the reader a chance to quickly get into the world and the story and the characters without a long info dump.

From a tabletop perspective, the issue is you are asking for a huge number of models - many of which are presumably of niche interest.

I mean are you going to have 7 types of human units, elf units, orcs, dwarves, goblins etc?

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Another advantage is the shared universe affect. When reading (watching, playing) a Tolkein-esque world 'Elf' is a useful shorthand that saves the writer pages of explaining who or what the Aelledarria are. Sure there's room for subversion, I remember a Gary Gygax novel with a psychotic and sadistic Elf thief, but a shared universe of common races gives the reader a chance to quickly get into the world and the story and the characters without a long info dump.

Also this. If your Elves aren't recognizably Elvish, why are you calling them Elves? If you invent your own race just call them something else.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I think it's worth mentioning that fantasy races being stereotypes is in many ways a useful convenience.

First off it's a reaction to the pulp fiction trope of 'savage foreigners'. Sometimes in heroic fiction you just want the hero to be able to lay into a bunch of villains without regard for their humanity. In pulp fiction those cannon fodder villains would usually be foreigners, I've seen Africans, Pacific Islanders, Tibetans, Picts and Eskimos (!!) used in this role.

Replacing real world groups with fictional orcs, goblins, drow, zombies etc allows writers to have their big action scene with no moral qualms.

No mention of the early D&D art and related miniatures playing-up stereo-typical racial and cultural characteristics for creeps and baddies (take a look at the old school Hobgoblins) for example. An why do dwarves always gotta be raucous Scots or Welsh?

I guess atonement has coming: https://www.denofgeek.com/games/dungeons-and-dragons-half-race-changes-racism-controversy/

 Adeptekon wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I think it's worth mentioning that fantasy races being stereotypes is in many ways a useful convenience.

First off it's a reaction to the pulp fiction trope of 'savage foreigners'. Sometimes in heroic fiction you just want the hero to be able to lay into a bunch of villains without regard for their humanity. In pulp fiction those cannon fodder villains would usually be foreigners, I've seen Africans, Pacific Islanders, Tibetans, Picts and Eskimos (!!) used in this role.

Replacing real world groups with fictional orcs, goblins, drow, zombies etc allows writers to have their big action scene with no moral qualms.

No mention of the early D&D art and related miniatures playing-up stereo-typical racial and cultural characteristics for creeps and baddies (take a look at the old school Hobgoblins) for example. An why do dwarves always gotta be raucous Scots or Welsh?

I guess atonement has coming: https://www.denofgeek.com/games/dungeons-and-dragons-half-race-changes-racism-controversy/

This shows how stupid the current management at WOTC is. Abolishing half-races?! Really? Oh sorry, I mean half-species as the term RACE is so offensive! Facepalm! This is just a distraction maneuver to shift discussions from the atrocious microtransactions plans for future D&D. An asinine video game concept for a...Pen & Paper game. Damn, those suits at WOTC must be the sharpest tools in the shed!

Back to half-races. What does this mean? Won´t those creatures be able to have offspring with one another? Why is it a problem in the first place? Idk. Oh...wait a minute. This reeks of...eugenics. Jesus Christ! Who knew the WOTC suits are bunch of full-fledged racists.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Adeptekon wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I think it's worth mentioning that fantasy races being stereotypes is in many ways a useful convenience.

First off it's a reaction to the pulp fiction trope of 'savage foreigners'. Sometimes in heroic fiction you just want the hero to be able to lay into a bunch of villains without regard for their humanity. In pulp fiction those cannon fodder villains would usually be foreigners, I've seen Africans, Pacific Islanders, Tibetans, Picts and Eskimos (!!) used in this role.

Replacing real world groups with fictional orcs, goblins, drow, zombies etc allows writers to have their big action scene with no moral qualms.

No mention of the early D&D art and related miniatures playing-up stereo-typical racial and cultural characteristics for creeps and baddies (take a look at the old school Hobgoblins) for example. An why do dwarves always gotta be raucous Scots or Welsh?

I guess atonement has coming: https://www.denofgeek.com/games/dungeons-and-dragons-half-race-changes-racism-controversy/

This shows how stupid the current management at WOTC is. Abolishing half-races?! Really? Oh sorry, I mean half-species as the term RACE is so offensive! Facepalm! This is just a distraction maneuver to shift discussions from the atrocious microtransactions plans for future D&D. An asinine video game concept for a...Pen & Paper game. Damn, those suits at WOTC must be the sharpest tools in the shed!

Back to half-races. What does this mean? Won´t those creatures be able to have offspring with one another? Why is it a problem in the first place? Idk. Oh...wait a minute. This reeks of...eugenics. Jesus Christ! Who knew the WOTC suits are bunch of full-fledged racists.

Eh. They'll just sell it (half-elves/orcs/etc) to you again in another book a few years from now.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I think it's worth mentioning that fantasy races being stereotypes is in many ways a useful convenience.

First off it's a reaction to the pulp fiction trope of 'savage foreigners'. Sometimes in heroic fiction you just want the hero to be able to lay into a bunch of villains without regard for their humanity. In pulp fiction those cannon fodder villains would usually be foreigners, I've seen Africans, Pacific Islanders, Tibetans, Picts and Eskimos (!!) used in this role.

Replacing real world groups with fictional orcs, goblins, drow, zombies etc allows writers to have their big action scene with no moral qualms.

Another advantage is the shared universe affect. When reading (watching, playing) a Tolkein-esque world 'Elf' is a useful shorthand that saves the writer pages of explaining who or what the Aelledarria are. Sure there's room for subversion, I remember a Gary Gygax novel with a psychotic and sadistic Elf thief, but a shared universe of common races gives the reader a chance to quickly get into the world and the story and the characters without a long info dump.

I 100% agree with you.

I suppose that also means that the best place for deviations from tropes are probably RPGs, in which the typical consumer would be willing to take the time to get to know what they changes are and adjust to their existence without it being a jarring change.

 Strg Alt wrote:



This shows how stupid the current management at WOTC is. Abolishing half-races?! Really? Oh sorry, I mean half-species as the term RACE is so offensive! Facepalm! This is just a distraction maneuver to shift discussions from the atrocious microtransactions plans for future D&D. An asinine video game concept for a...Pen & Paper game. Damn, those suits at WOTC must be the sharpest tools in the shed!

I mean, D&D has a lot of work ahead of itself to get near the levels of M:tG nickeling, dimeing, dollaring and sovereigning its customers. Recent experiments with 1000$ (a thousand, this is not a typo) boosters, FOMO-maxing special art sets for hundreds of dollars each quarter, 3-5 'highly collectible' alternate art printruns of already extremely rare stuff included in each set release and other 'dark pattern'-based nonsense have shown that there is a thin, but reliable crust of high-FOMO; almost obsessive individuals with quasi-unlimited pockets that is willing to spend the equivalent of dozens, if not hundreds of normal customers on each and every release. And these people seem to be where they're aiming most of their marketing effort at, because it practically equates to printing money, at least in the medium term.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:



This shows how stupid the current management at WOTC is. Abolishing half-races?! Really? Oh sorry, I mean half-species as the term RACE is so offensive! Facepalm! This is just a distraction maneuver to shift discussions from the atrocious microtransactions plans for future D&D. An asinine video game concept for a...Pen & Paper game. Damn, those suits at WOTC must be the sharpest tools in the shed!

I mean, D&D has a lot of work ahead of itself to get near the levels of M:tG nickeling, dimeing, dollaring and sovereigning its customers. Recent experiments with 1000$ (a thousand, this is not a typo) boosters, FOMO-maxing special art sets for hundreds of dollars each quarter, 3-5 'highly collectible' alternate art printruns of already extremely rare stuff included in each set release and other 'dark pattern'-based nonsense have shown that there is a thin, but reliable crust of high-FOMO; almost obsessive individuals with quasi-unlimited pockets that is willing to spend the equivalent of dozens, if not hundreds of normal customers on each and every release. And these people seem to be where they're aiming most of their marketing effort at, because it practically equates to printing money, at least in the medium term.

And these whales are living in the past. You love Fantasy art? You like specific, fictional characters from pop culture? Fine, go to Character AI and put in the required prompts. After trial and error you will receive awesome art for FREE. I did it myself. The only problem at the moment are hands and feet.

 Strg Alt wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:



This shows how stupid the current management at WOTC is. Abolishing half-races?! Really? Oh sorry, I mean half-species as the term RACE is so offensive! Facepalm! This is just a distraction maneuver to shift discussions from the atrocious microtransactions plans for future D&D. An asinine video game concept for a...Pen & Paper game. Damn, those suits at WOTC must be the sharpest tools in the shed!

I mean, D&D has a lot of work ahead of itself to get near the levels of M:tG nickeling, dimeing, dollaring and sovereigning its customers. Recent experiments with 1000$ (a thousand, this is not a typo) boosters, FOMO-maxing special art sets for hundreds of dollars each quarter, 3-5 'highly collectible' alternate art printruns of already extremely rare stuff included in each set release and other 'dark pattern'-based nonsense have shown that there is a thin, but reliable crust of high-FOMO; almost obsessive individuals with quasi-unlimited pockets that is willing to spend the equivalent of dozens, if not hundreds of normal customers on each and every release. And these people seem to be where they're aiming most of their marketing effort at, because it practically equates to printing money, at least in the medium term.

And these whales are living in the past. You love Fantasy art? You like specific, fictional characters from pop culture? Fine, go to Character AI and put in the required prompts. After trial and error you will receive awesome art for FREE. I did it myself. The only problem at the moment are hands and feet.

If you want to see how much in the past, head over to the M:tG site of your choice and take a sample of how well artwort of a black Aragorn for an upcoming LotR side product was received...

Having lived through this before (Demons and Devils being renamed as... I can't even remember) I expect that 'half races' will become mixed species or blended bloodlines or something in fairly short order.

Of course you can go the other way and embrace the stereotypes and read Grunts!

 Strg Alt wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
This shows how stupid the current management at WOTC is. Abolishing half-races?! Really? Oh sorry, I mean half-species as the term RACE is so offensive! Facepalm! This is just a distraction maneuver to shift discussions from the atrocious microtransactions plans for future D&D. An asinine video game concept for a...Pen & Paper game. Damn, those suits at WOTC must be the sharpest tools in the shed!

I mean, D&D has a lot of work ahead of itself to get near the levels of M:tG nickeling, dimeing, dollaring and sovereigning its customers. Recent experiments with 1000$ (a thousand, this is not a typo) boosters, FOMO-maxing special art sets for hundreds of dollars each quarter, 3-5 'highly collectible' alternate art printruns of already extremely rare stuff included in each set release and other 'dark pattern'-based nonsense have shown that there is a thin, but reliable crust of high-FOMO; almost obsessive individuals with quasi-unlimited pockets that is willing to spend the equivalent of dozens, if not hundreds of normal customers on each and every release. And these people seem to be where they're aiming most of their marketing effort at, because it practically equates to printing money, at least in the medium term.

And these whales are living in the past. You love Fantasy art? You like specific, fictional characters from pop culture? Fine, go to Character AI and put in the required prompts. After trial and error you will receive awesome art for FREE. I did it myself. The only problem at the moment are hands and feet.

Feck that noise - if you want art, pay an artist.

> Also this. If your Elves aren't recognizably Elvish, why are you calling them Elves? If you invent your own race just call them something else.

Yeah, that. As in Cyel's post, if you want races not to perpetuate stereotypes, there's nothing stopping you from designing your own fictional cultures. Start typing.

fwiw, WotC's Drizzt is Chaotic Good, different from the conventional Evil of Dark Elves in D&D. Also, iirc, the D&D rules often allow you to play an alignment that is different from your race. AFAIK, D&D hasn't *changed* alignments of conventional races, though they had evil versions (eg. Duegar and Dark Elves) of good races for a long time.

Miniatures, of course, are more difficult, but I'm seeing more gender swaps than decades ago, and, with 3D printing, the barrier's lower to creating miniatures against racial stereotypes.

Myself, I see monsters as loot drops, and NPC's as indirect loot drops. Any race, gender, alignment, or profession works for me.

D&D's issues with racial alignments are beyond the scope of this thread, probably beyond the scope of a doctoral thesis.