10th Edition Gameplay and Rules news and discussion - Terrain pg 46

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**Daedalus81**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
*shrug* I have no idea how much they'll be able to cram.
Yeah you really weren't around for the Pete Haines era, were you?

3rd? For sure. I just figure they want to follow more modern layouts!

In an ideal world there the cults would keep their rules/strats/relics (cut-down to 10th size, that is), so if you want to play Cult of [Whatever], you'd go to their 2 page spread and it'd show you everything you have, and you wouldn't need to look at all the others.

But it won't be that. It'll be 1KSons, and then a page for some special formation that has to include Magnus, and then another for Ahriman.

Possible, but GW does like writing lots of rules, so....

**EviscerationPlague**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Lord Damocles wrote:
evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
The funny thing about cutting factions is that everyone who suggests it, never assumes their army is going to get cut. Obviously their stuff will stay. All that extra stuff from some other group needs to go though.

I have Blood Angels, Deathwatch, Death Guard (as 'major factions'), and I think that they should all be cut.

Keep your hands off Thousand Sons. I ain't goin' back!

You're not going back to having more options available vs "oh you get Cultists But Different" and the Mutalith?

**Karol**

EviscerationPlague 809431 11511592 wrote:
You're not going back to having more options available vs "oh you get Cultists But Different" and the Mutalith?

Yes, what wonderful "more" options. Here you go now you can have pox walkers in your 1ksons army. And we are going to optimise the codex not for someone playing a 1ksons build, but a soup, which may mean that the only 1ksons model worth taking could be a tzeench DP or Ahriman.

Marines had that in 8th. When the codex was writen so well, that building the army started with taking of the loyal 32, followed by taking of a raven castellan and then taking minimum marines, legal. So many options it was mind blowing, how fun it was.

**Wayniac**

Platuan4th wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Lord Damocles wrote:
evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
The funny thing about cutting factions is that everyone who suggests it, never assumes their army is going to get cut. Obviously their stuff will stay. All that extra stuff from some other group needs to go though.

I have Blood Angels, Deathwatch, Death Guard (as 'major factions'), and I think that they should all be cut.

Keep your hands off Thousand Sons. I ain't goin' back!

Tbh i wouldnt be mad if Thousand Sons just became "Your squad leaders get psychic powers" for CSM

Gonna strip them of all weapon options for that real 3.5 feel, too?

yes lol

Chaos as a whole should get similar things, like having all their weapons be more daemonic. For example the norm should be having those tainted bolters and flamers. Thousand sons gimmick should be the more resilient Rubrics and psykers all over.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Yeah, you'd think that after 10,000 years Chaos equipment would have also mutated or have undergone design changes rather than just being heresy era armaments.

Don't they have forges and factories in the Warp? You mean to tell me not one of them can make a new gun?
I understand the Imperium not innovating or inventing, but you'd think Chaos would be the opposite and start making all sorts of bizarre weapons, because, well, Chaos.

They really shouldn't just be using bolters at this point.

**Tsagualsa**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, you'd think that after 10,000 years Chaos equipment would have also mutated or have undergone design changes rather than just being heresy era armaments.

Don't they have forges and factories in the Warp? You mean to tell me not one of them can make a new gun?
I understand the Imperium not innovating or inventing, but you'd think Chaos would be the opposite and start making all sorts of bizarre weapons, because, well, Chaos.

They really shouldn't just be using bolters at this point.

That is a question that has moved players ever since 3rd edition, and spawned the following vignette, from Aron Dembski-Bowden, no less:

Dude – Where’s my Land Speeder?

“Dude, Horus just croaked. What now?”

Abaddon re-tied his topknot. He totally had an idea. “I totally have an idea,” he said. The Traitor Legions looked on expectantly. “Here’s what we do. We run away.”

Many helmed heads nodded. This seemed a wise course of action.

“Good idea,” said Erebus.

‘Hush.” Abaddon frowned at the interruption. “But I think we should leave behind our jetbikes, Dreadclaws, Whirlwinds, Landspeeders – pretty much all anti-grav technology, really – as well as our bikes, attack bikes, and pretty much anything else we’ve used so far.”

Fewer helms nodded this time. “Dude,” said Lucius the Eternal, “we might need all that stuff. Some of that stuff is rad.”

“Nah, I’ve made up my mind. Let’s just go.”

“But…”

“Let’s. Just. Go.” Abaddon waved the Talon of Horus. Its scythe-blade fingers made clickety-click sounds.

“Okay, let’s just go,” agreed Lucius.

Kharn wasn’t so easily placated. “What about Cyclone Launchers? Because I saw those in Horus Heresy: Collected Visions, so we must be using th–”

“I feel like I’m talking to myself, here.” Abaddon pointed a claw at the World Eater. It poked Kharn in the eye.

“Ow, Jesus, man. Okay, okay. We’ll go.”

“Yeah, that’s what I thought.”

Abaddon pimp-walked from the room, strutting like he owned the place.

“Hey, what about this conversion beamer?” asked Typhus. “Couldn’t we use these in Rogue Trader? These are awesome. They go, like, FWOOOOOSH.”

“Leave it!” Abaddon’s voice called from the other room. Typhus put it down, grumbling.

Fabius Bile sort of shrugged. “So, uh, can I come with you guys? Because I was checking the passenger lists, and none of the Legions are taking their Apothecaries. I mean… don’t you need us?”

Lucius patted his brother on the shoulder. “It’s okay, man. We’ll allude to the Apothecaries in the background text. I mean, you won’t get to ever do anything, but you’ll sort of be there in the fluff, y’know? A bit? Maybe?”

“Balls to this. I’m leaving the Legion. I’ll make my own rules.”

Kharn snorted. “Your rules will be lame for competitive play. Just watch. And people will call you Fabulous Bill.”

The Traitors walked from the chamber, out to the landing pad. It was deserted.

“Uh, Abbs?”

Abaddon turned to Ahriman. “S’up?”

“Um.” The Thousand Son gestured to the empty landing pad. “Where are all our gunships?”

Abaddon ignored him. “Weren’t you red a minute ago?”

“We’re blue now. It’s… it’s this whole… thing. Look, seriously, where are our Thunderhawks?”

“Oh, right. Them.” Abaddon toyed with his topknot, swishing it back and forth, like a kitten with a fluffy toy. “We won’t need those. We can run everywhere and stuff. Or push Rhinos out of hangers and ride them through the atmosphere. It’ll be cool.”

The Traitors shared a glance. This wasn’t going well. Abaddon noticed their hesitation, and sought to calm them. “Relaaaaax. I’ll invent new stuff. Like… spider robots with daemons in, and they have claws and stuff. They’ll defile things. Maybe they can be called Defilotrons. It’ll be sweet. And they’ll have a gun on their chests, and tiny little heads. What? Why are you looking at me like that? You just wait. We’ll rock this place all to hell.”

https://objectivesecured.com.au/dude-wheres-my-land-speeder-why-chaos-is-missing-all-the-cool-stuff-in-40k/

**CthuluIsSpy**

It would have been interesting to see them field corrupted and daemonic versions of, I dunno, Volkite weapons rather than just poorly maintained 10,000 year old bolters.

Just imagine a Heresy era jetbike that has a parasitic daemon fused to it.

**Wayniac**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
It would have been interesting to see them field corrupted and daemonic versions of, I dunno, Volkite weapons rather than just poorly maintained 10,000 year old bolters.

Just imagine a Heresy era jetbike that has a parasitic daemon fused to it.

This may veer offtopic a bit but my thought process has always been that Traitor Legions (specifically, if I had my way Renegades would be a totally different codex) should be one of two things:

1) Focus on mostly HH-era stuff, almost bridging a gap between HH and 40k. Slightly boring though when you consider the warp.

2) Focus more on occult/daemon-tainted weaponry. Have everything, or almost everything, infused with the warp and daemonic influences. Hereteks and Dark Mechanicum and all those guys should be constantly messing around with things, almost nothing should be "standard". They sort of did some of this with having like Baleflamers, Ectoplasma, Hades autocannon etc. but should have done more. Chaos shouldn't have "flamers", it should only be Baleflamers that are different (it's not called that but the TSons flamer is basically what it should be). They shouldn't have Plasma Guns, but Ectoplasma that has some slight variation. Soulshatter Lascannons (like on the updated Predator Annihilator), hades autocannons, stuff like that. All their bolters should be warp infused. Basically in my head, TRAITOR LEGIONS should be more elite, like closer to Grey Knights than Ultramarines, to reflect the fact that they are mostly the same guys as from the Heresy, so they're more elite. Chosen should be your baseline. On the flipside Renegade chapters should basically be like an addendum to the Marine codex, representing more recent converts who would have access to more modern things (e.g. storm bolters, assault cannons). Like really, Chaos Renegades should be a "two page spread" in the marine codex, not part of CSM.

But I digress...

**Daedalus81**

EviscerationPlague wrote:
You're not going back to having more options available vs "oh you get Cultists But Different" and the Mutalith?

Tell me you don't play Thousand Sons without telling me you don't play Thousand Sons.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, you'd think that after 10,000 years Chaos equipment would have also mutated or have undergone design changes rather than just being heresy era armaments.

Don't they have forges and factories in the Warp? You mean to tell me not one of them can make a new gun?
I understand the Imperium not innovating or inventing, but you'd think Chaos would be the opposite and start making all sorts of bizarre weapons, because, well, Chaos.

They really shouldn't just be using bolters at this point.

Well...CSM shouldn't be marines, but spiky. And they do make new weapons...

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/chaos-space-marines-warpforged-venomcrawler-and-obliterators-2022
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Chaos-Space-Marines-Vex-Machinator-2019
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Chaos-Space-Marines-Heldrake-2019
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Chaos-Space-Marines-Forgefiend-2019

**CthuluIsSpy**

Daedalus81 wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
You're not going back to having more options available vs "oh you get Cultists But Different" and the Mutalith?

Tell me you don't play Thousand Sons without telling me you don't play Thousand Sons.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, you'd think that after 10,000 years Chaos equipment would have also mutated or have undergone design changes rather than just being heresy era armaments.

Don't they have forges and factories in the Warp? You mean to tell me not one of them can make a new gun?
I understand the Imperium not innovating or inventing, but you'd think Chaos would be the opposite and start making all sorts of bizarre weapons, because, well, Chaos.

They really shouldn't just be using bolters at this point.

Well...CSM shouldn't be marines, but spiky. And they do make new weapons...

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/chaos-space-marines-warpforged-venomcrawler-and-obliterators-2022
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Chaos-Space-Marines-Vex-Machinator-2019
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Chaos-Space-Marines-Heldrake-2019
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Chaos-Space-Marines-Forgefiend-2019

Yeah, they make some new stuff, but their rank and file are still armed with bolters that aren't even in good condition. You'd think they would use something a little more unique to them.
Imo, every single piece of CSM should be either be some overtly daemonic perversion of imperial gear or something really esoteric.
For an army called Chaos they really are just spikey marines with some crazy stuff but mostly what the imperials have but worse.

**Daedalus81**

Making another weapon profile that is a "bolter" but not a bolter seems like rearranging the chairs on the titanic. They do have the chaincannon and the tome though.

They also have better flamers and a tier of lascannons that sit above loyalists, but no idea if flamers will stay like that in the new rules.

**VladimirHerzog**

Platuan4th wrote:

Gonna strip them of all weapon options for that real 3.5 feel, too?

what weapon option lol?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

But it won't be that. It'll be 1KSons, and then a page for some special formation that has to include Magnus, and then another for Ahriman.

except thats litterally how they said it would NOT work...

If Ultramarines gets a double sided rules ref sheet and Ultramarines First company get a different double-sided rules ref sheet, i think its pretty fair to assume each cult will have its own sheet that is exclusive to the rest (and yeah, we might get one that wants you to bring Magnus but who cares really?)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

Yes, what wonderful "more" options. Here you go now you can have pox walkers in your 1ksons army. And we are going to optimise the codex not for someone playing a 1ksons build, but a soup, which may mean that the only 1ksons model worth taking could be a tzeench DP or Ahriman.

Thats obviously not whats gonna happen... IF they bring TS back into CSM, their rules would obviously say "you cannot take units that do not have the TZEENTCH keyword".....

But yeah, theres no shot theyre actually putting the cult legions back in the CSM codex anyway

**H.B.M.C.**

VladimirHerzog wrote:
except thats litterally how they said it would NOT work...

They haven't said how it works. They've been nothing but vague the entire time.

VladimirHerzog wrote:
If Ultramarines gets a double sided rules ref sheet and Ultramarines First company get a different double-sided rules ref sheet, i think its pretty fair to assume each cult will have its own sheet that is exclusive to the rest (and yeah, we might get one that wants you to bring Magnus but who cares really?)

Each Cult will have its own double-page spread? 18 pages of rules? You're mighty optimistic there.

No we're getting fluff-driven arbitrary nonsense. You play a "Gladius Task Force", whatever the feth that is. Likely just some bs they've made up that will be as ephemeral as everything else in the fluff these days.

Based upon that article, Chapters aren't even a thing! Just paint jobs.

**VladimirHerzog**

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Based upon that article, Chapters aren't even a thing! Just paint jobs.

man, you sound overly pessimistic.... its heavy as feth.

Chapters are a worse system than detachment rules... Just because you're a white scar doesnt mean you forgot how to use multiple dreadnoughts/tanks.
If you wan't a "fluffy" all bikers list, i'm sure there will be a detachment for it.

Oh ,and thats 100% only a Marine problem, pretty much no other faction has the same amount of difference between subfactions represented in the rules anyway.

**Gangland**

Lord Damocles wrote:
Gangland wrote:
Strg Alt wrote:
Having "Box set vs. Box set" battles is an asinine idea hatched from the ill brain of a marketing manger. This proves game designers are treated like crap in that company otherwise it wouldn´t come to such an embarrassing development.

Eh, seems like a decent way to give new players the ability to get into the game together while not being shoe horned by what is in the starter. It is gw though so...

Instead everyone is short horned by what is in the combat patrol box.

I hope little Timmy wans a bajillion Poxwalkers and no tanks.

Non-problem totally solved! Much improvement. Many wow.

Did little Timmy just ChadKing you into only playing combat patrol with his Death Guard box that he ChadKing'd GW into giving him extra poxwalkers in? Little Timmy sounds sick as hell, I hope he continues to bully you into only playing combat patrol games all of 10th.

Of course you could... just not play combat patrol so you have the full range of options? Don't strain yourself too hard on that question.

**Siegfriedfr**

Siegfriedfr wrote:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/03/30/how-army-building-works-in-the-new-edition-of-warhammer-40000/

For the new edition, the rules team have tried to incentivise the use of a wider range of units by ensuring that each one has a cool, unique ability to bring to the field. Troops are no longer a tax you must pay to unlock the units you actually want to take – but you’ll absolutely still be seeing plenty of classic front line squads showing up on the field.

Battle Size

There are now three main army sizes: Incursion (1,000 points), Strike Force (2,000 points), and Onslaught (3,000 points). 500-point games are still perfectly possible, of course, but the Warhammer 40,000 Core Rules are optimised for slightly larger forces than that.*

Power Levels are a thing of the past – points are now the order of the day.

Select Detachment Rules

Here’s where the differences begin to show themselves. Instead of choosing a subfaction or constructing your own, you now choose a single set of Detachment rules for your whole army. These include special abilities, Enhancements, Stratagems, and unit restrictions.

For instance, you might be playing as the Gladius Task Force of the Adeptus Astartes. Your faction gives you the Oath of Moment army rule (more on this next week!) while your Detachment gives you access to six unique Stratagems – on top of the core group in the main rules – as well as four exclusive Enhancements for your Space Marine characters. It also bags you the Combat Doctrines ability, which allows you to pick from three powerful doctrines during your Command phase.

If you chose to fight with a different Detachment, you’d replace the Strategems, Enhancements and Combat Doctrines with those of the new Detachment.

Detachment choice will very rarely be tied to an army colour scheme. So while Ultramarines might be the theoretical and practical masters of the Gladius Task Force, other Chapters can use it too – and the same will be true of many other detachments as they are added into the game. This also means that you can try multiple Detachments with a single army. You are not going to be locked into a single Detachment just because you painted your army blue, or red, or yellow.

This is an incredibly flexible system that will allow for many weird and wonderful armies in future codexes…

Pick units

Using the Faction keyword you picked earlier, you now select the units you want to include in your army, with the following stipulations:

- You must include at least one CHARACTER
- You can only include one of each named EPIC HERO
- You can only include up to three units of each datasheet
- However, you can include up to six units of each datasheet with the BATTLELINE or DEDICATED TRANSPORT keywords
- Each CHARACTER can only have one Enhancement, you can’t include more than three Enhancements in total, and these must all be different

And that’s it!

Select Warlord

You now choose one CHARACTER as your leader. They gain the WARLORD keyword, and you’re ready to select your missions.

Now, no Detachment will ever need more than a couple of pages to cover all its unique rules and restrictions, meaning there will never again be any need to waste time flicking through codex pages to find the right rule.

I gotta say, this sound really exciting...

**ccs**

VladimirHerzog wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:

Based upon that article, Chapters aren't even a thing! Just paint jobs.

man, you sound overly pessimistic.... its heavy as feth.

Chapters are a worse system than detachment rules... Just because you're a white scar doesnt mean you forgot how to use multiple dreadnoughts/tanks.
If you wan't a "fluffy" all bikers list, i'm sure there will be a detachment for it.

The Chapters didn't forget, it's the players who forgot/refused to use other units. And they will continue to do so.

**Asmodai**

ccs wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:

Based upon that article, Chapters aren't even a thing! Just paint jobs.

man, you sound overly pessimistic.... its heavy as feth.

Chapters are a worse system than detachment rules... Just because you're a white scar doesnt mean you forgot how to use multiple dreadnoughts/tanks.
If you wan't a "fluffy" all bikers list, i'm sure there will be a detachment for it.

The Chapters didn't forget, it's the players who forgot/refused to use other units. And they will continue to do so.

It's a nice step back from the Flanderization.

I don't think you can blame Blood Angels players for leaning into melee when all their rules have been melee-focused for 20 years.

Now a Blood Angels player can take the Artillery Company Detachment and be at the same level rules-wise with Imperial Fists if they decide they want to field a bunch of Whirlwinds.

**SamusDrake**

Bit concerned on the battle sizes, but willing to hear them out on Combat Patrols before acting rationally...

**catbarf**

ccs wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:

Based upon that article, Chapters aren't even a thing! Just paint jobs.

man, you sound overly pessimistic.... its heavy as feth.

Chapters are a worse system than detachment rules... Just because you're a white scar doesnt mean you forgot how to use multiple dreadnoughts/tanks.
If you wan't a "fluffy" all bikers list, i'm sure there will be a detachment for it.

The Chapters didn't forget, it's the players who forgot/refused to use other units. And they will continue to do so.

When painting your force a certain color meant you were locked into your subfaction bonus being better melee, yeah no kidding you refused to take ranged specialists. Blood Angels armies didn't even take their own tank because they had zero synergy with the subfaction specialty; that isn't the fault of players, it's an artifact of poor subfaction design that overtly encourages flanderized army composition.

Having detachments tied to playstyles or themes rather than just the subfaction itself is a positive change and in line with what we've seen in recent codices, like Astra Militarum. If you want to keep playing the archetypical version of a subfaction there's nothing stopping you from taking the 'appropriate' detachment.

**Gangland**

SamusDrake wrote:
Bit concerned on the battle sizes, but willing to hear them out on Combat Patrols before acting rationally...

My best guess is if you want to play 500pt games outside of what comes in the box sets you could either use the incursion rules or whatever scenarios come with combat patrol. I don't see how they could unit lock scenarios for Combat Patrol when there are so many boxes and factions to account for. We will see though.

**alextroy**

That’s easy. Different detachment and unit datasheet specifically for Combat Patrol designed to balance say Combat Patrol Space Marines with Combat Patrol Gene Stealer Cults.

Take a look at them and tell me who you are betting on in 9th Edition 40K.

**EviscerationPlague**

catbarf wrote:
ccs wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:

Based upon that article, Chapters aren't even a thing! Just paint jobs.

man, you sound overly pessimistic.... its heavy as feth.

Chapters are a worse system than detachment rules... Just because you're a white scar doesnt mean you forgot how to use multiple dreadnoughts/tanks.
If you wan't a "fluffy" all bikers list, i'm sure there will be a detachment for it.

The Chapters didn't forget, it's the players who forgot/refused to use other units. And they will continue to do so.

Having detachments tied to playstyles or themes rather than just the subfaction itself is a positive change and in line with what we've seen in recent codices, like Astra Militarum. If you want to keep playing the archetypical version of a subfaction there's nothing stopping you from taking the 'appropriate' detachment.

It's similar to how the 5th edition Marine codex worked with Special Characters. They sorta modified how you played and you were heavily encouraged to mix and match to represent your dude. So take that with "mix and match" traits with just enough variety and it's theoretically a good system.

At minimum, it's at least not really the problem with the Guard codex.

**Unit1126PLL**

Yeouch, those army build rules have broken two thirds of my armies, unless I start changing my lore. Oi vey.

**ccs**

Asmodai wrote:
ccs wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:

Based upon that article, Chapters aren't even a thing! Just paint jobs.

man, you sound overly pessimistic.... its heavy as feth.

Chapters are a worse system than detachment rules... Just because you're a white scar doesnt mean you forgot how to use multiple dreadnoughts/tanks.
If you wan't a "fluffy" all bikers list, i'm sure there will be a detachment for it.

The Chapters didn't forget, it's the players who forgot/refused to use other units. And they will continue to do so.

It's a nice step back from the Flanderization.

I don't think you can blame Blood Angels players for leaning into melee when all their rules have been melee-focused for 20 years.

Clearly you've never read a BA codex. Yes, they have a CC focus (special rules & bespoke kits) on a # of their iconic units. They ALSO have always had full access to all the generic dreds, predators, speeders, Dev squads, Tac squads, flyers etc etc etc every other chapter has. And they're no worse at using them. BA players don't HAVE to make a CC oriented army to be effective. They CHOOSE to. And they will continue to make that same choice. It doesn't matter wether their rules are in a book or on a card.

**tneva82**

ccs wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:

Based upon that article, Chapters aren't even a thing! Just paint jobs.

man, you sound overly pessimistic.... its heavy as feth.

Chapters are a worse system than detachment rules... Just because you're a white scar doesnt mean you forgot how to use multiple dreadnoughts/tanks.
If you wan't a "fluffy" all bikers list, i'm sure there will be a detachment for it.

The Chapters didn't forget, it's the players who forgot/refused to use other units. And they will continue to do so.

The chapter rules penalised hard taking units chapters should be using but didn't benefit from free rule you got.

Players played way gw wanted. Pick unit to spam, pick subfaction that gelps them most.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ccs wrote:
Asmodai wrote:
ccs wrote:
VladimirHerzog wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:

Based upon that article, Chapters aren't even a thing! Just paint jobs.

man, you sound overly pessimistic.... its heavy as feth.

Chapters are a worse system than detachment rules... Just because you're a white scar doesnt mean you forgot how to use multiple dreadnoughts/tanks.
If you wan't a "fluffy" all bikers list, i'm sure there will be a detachment for it.

The Chapters didn't forget, it's the players who forgot/refused to use other units. And they will continue to do so.

It's a nice step back from the Flanderization.

I don't think you can blame Blood Angels players for leaning into melee when all their rules have been melee-focused for 20 years.

Clearly you've never read a BA codex. Yes, they have a CC focus (special rules & bespoke kits) on a # of their iconic units. They ALSO have always had full access to all the generic dreds, predators, speeders, Dev squads, Tac squads, flyers etc etc etc every other chapter has. And they're no worse at using them. BA players don't HAVE to make a CC oriented army to be effective. They CHOOSE to. And they will continue to make that same choice. It doesn't matter wether their rules are in a book or on a card.

Yes they have access. Tell me how amazing devastators and predators are with +1 to wound

yey! Such a great buff!

You will lose going against shooty army as they have same devastator unit datasheet that costs same but is better.

If rules don't penalize you they don't have to choose so. Now you are choosing to lose games if you take it.

But imagine shock horror game be balanced and not autolosing because you took predators and devastators in ba army?

Free bonus rules have to die. Either rule goes away or it costs. Ba devastator should cost less than ih devastator as they are worse.

Sucks but that's how gw wants game to be played and most players can calculate 1+1=2 to see what units are worth using with each free rule.

In 10th no doubt same with detachments. Pick unit(s) you want to spam, pick detachment thingie that gives best free rule for them.

**VladimirHerzog**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeouch, those army build rules have broken two thirds of my armies, unless I start changing my lore. Oi vey.

how so?

**jaredb**

I'm really interested in the concept of the detachments, be cool to try out different rules with the same set of models, but not have to remember all of them at once.

I wonder if the 10th edition codex books will have a handful of generic detachments, and then one or two for the main subfactions.

Really hard to get a good idea of things until we get the PDF of unit datasheets and what detachments we have access to. But, I am really excited about this. I much prefer having two pages of all the rules/enhancements/strats I need, instead of bits and bobs all over the place and overlapping.

**VladimirHerzog**

ccs wrote:

Clearly you've never read a BA codex. Yes, they have a CC focus (special rules & bespoke kits) on a # of their iconic units. They ALSO have always had full access to all the generic dreds, predators, speeders, Dev squads, Tac squads, flyers etc etc etc every other chapter has. And they're no worse at using them. BA players don't HAVE to make a CC oriented army to be effective. They CHOOSE to. And they will continue to make that same choice. It doesn't matter wether their rules are in a book or on a card.

Does the Baal predator truly benefit from getting +1 to wound when it charges? No.

So yeah, it's the rules fault for making a unit that is lore-friendly to the faction but gets no real bonuses from the codex

**Gangland**

alextroy wrote:
That’s easy. Different detachment and unit datasheet specifically for Combat Patrol designed to balance say Combat Patrol Space Marines with Combat Patrol Gene Stealer Cults.

Take a look at them and tell me who you are betting on in 9th Edition 40K.

Hm, fair point, you just download the detachment for the box and there. Not knowing what these detachments will look like though I can't say how easy it will be to modify for more customized 500pt lists but I'd wager it be easy enough to modify, say the incursion detachments to fit 500pts if anyone so wants, or maybe even modify the patrol detachment you get will be viable.