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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

TreeStewges wrote:
Another thing to note: there’s no separate entries or modifiers for a sergeant model. Right now a Termie sarge has +1 to attack and leadership.

Note that the Power Sword has 4 Attacks vs the 3 Attacks of the other weapons. The LD is probably baked in. The Sergeant is probably mentioned in the section where you pay for the squad size and loadout.

Ack. I always thought that power sword was replaceable, but I guess it isn't.

That sword has never been replaceable, it's absolutely obnoxious.

You’re both assuming the extra attack on the power weapon is because it’s for the ‘sergeant’ model and not possibly because it’s a way to make the power weapon seem attractive compared to the fist.

I mean, the power fist, chainfist and thunder hammer traditionally, AFAIK, had an accuracy penalty for using them.

By that sheet, only the chainfist has less accuracy.

PenitentJake wrote:
So...

All rules on the card...

Except:

Blast
Anti-vehicle
Ignores Cover
Torrent
Devastating Wounds
... and the Rapid Ingress strat
... oh, and of course Deepstrike and Oath of Moment

Oh, and there are no indications of how many of each weapon you're allowed to take- so I guess that's a Cyclone, an Assault Cannon and a Power Fist for everyone?

Now of course, I'm being a bit facetious here- obviously a lot of the missing rules will be USRs... But will they be on the two page spread, or will they be in the dex, or will they be in the BRB... or some combination of the above?

Also, as noted by others, this profile doesn't include Assault Terminator weapons like Claws and Hammers, so consolidationist weep- there will continue to be at least two datacards for Terminators and likely another for Relic termies.

Pg.1 Basic stat profiles
Pg.2 Weapon profiles,

GW never said anything about ALL the rules being the pages. MAYBE they'll have USRs and page reference if you're lucky.

EDIT: I take that back, they did literally say ALL the rules.

TreeStewges wrote:
You’re both assuming the extra attack on the power weapon is because it’s for the ‘sergeant’ model and not possibly because it’s a way to make the power weapon seem attractive compared to the fist.

I mean, the power fist, chainfist and thunder hammer traditionally, AFAIK, had an accuracy penalty for using them.

By that sheet, only the chainfist has less accuracy.

Well we know power sword is only used by sergeant. We also know power swora stats between cards don't have to match.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I would say because it isn't a common item shared among all cards and prevents confusion, I guess.

I would argue that it adds to confusion because it's so easy to overlook.


Unrelated, I see GW's concerns over invulnerable save creep didn't last long, given that terminators now have a 4++ as standard.

PenitentJake wrote:
So...

Also, as noted by others, this profile doesn't include Assault Terminator weapons like Claws and Hammers, so consolidationist weep- there will continue to be at least two datacards for Terminators and likely another for Relic termies.

Wouldnt these just fall under "power weapon" on the data card? so both hammers and claws could just be used under the generic "power weapon" profile

 Daedalus81 wrote:

TreeStewges wrote:
Another thing to note: there’s no separate entries or modifiers for a sergeant model. Right now a Termie sarge has +1 to attack and leadership.

It’s possible this is a terminator and/or veteran unit only thing.

It’s also seems likely that sergeant and equivalent models won’t exist rules wise. They’ll likely be called out as “a single model can be armed with…” if that guess is true.

Good catch - I didn't even think of that. Weird.

Termies are pretty non-descript with loadouts, so it will be interesting to see a unit with a more official sergeant.

Stuff like the Aspiring Sorcerer would probably have to be its own card, right? It is already a bit awkward sharing space with the rubrics with the way things are formatted now and I doubt they'd even have room on the new datacards.

Asmodios wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
So...

Also, as noted by others, this profile doesn't include Assault Terminator weapons like Claws and Hammers, so consolidationist weep- there will continue to be at least two datacards for Terminators and likely another for Relic termies.

Wouldnt these just fall under "power weapon" on the data card? so both hammers and claws could just be used under the generic "power weapon" profile

Or this being tactical terminators don't show weapons unit can't have?

PenitentJake wrote:

Pg.1 Basic stat profiles
Pg.2 Weapon profiles,

GW never said anything about ALL the rules being the pages. MAYBE they'll have USRs and page reference if you're lucky.

EDIT: I take that back, they did literally say ALL the rules.

All the rules are on the card in that example. You would only have to reference the universal special rules page if you didn't know what the keywords meant. The rule is literally on the card. An explanation of every rule isn't printed on each card. In GWs defense i think it would be very annoying to have something like "feel no pain" written out in long-form text on each card


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tneva82 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
So...

Also, as noted by others, this profile doesn't include Assault Terminator weapons like Claws and Hammers, so consolidationist weep- there will continue to be at least two datacards for Terminators and likely another for Relic termies.

Wouldnt these just fall under "power weapon" on the data card? so both hammers and claws could just be used under the generic "power weapon" profile

Or this being tactical terminators don't show weapons unit can't have?

Yes that's true, i was just saying this new keyword technically allows you to hobby on any power weapon for hobby purposes and allows you to run it under this generic profile

Except that the power weapon is just called power weapon. This would mean that sergeants, lieutenants and captains no longer have extra attacks compared to each other.

Further again, while the power weapon is only, presumably, for the sergeant, it having an extra attack doesn’t mean it’s the only weapon a sarge can take.

Like the chainsword and lightning claw traditionally, the generic power weapon having an extra attack is likely just a reason to even take it over a power fist or chainfist.

We have three scenarios here:

1.) Leader models no longer exist.

2.) Weapon options are homogenized such that leader units, like a captain, are no longer better at using weapons chainsword, power sword, etc. in any way over a generic battle brother. Since captains are often a bit more accurate, it’s also likely this will remain true for ranger as well.

3.) The homogenization is only for certain units like Terminators.

The first two are really sucky to me, the third also sucks but is more livable.

 vipoid wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I would say because it isn't a common item shared among all cards and prevents confusion, I guess.

I would argue that it adds to confusion because it's so easy to overlook.


Unrelated, I see GW's concerns over invulnerable save creep didn't last long, given that terminators now have a 4++ as standard.

Invul saves were a concern when AP was high.

Now we are seeing former -4 weapons (sometimes -5) being scaled back to -2.

At this point plasma is -2 for sure.

I wouldn't be surprised if even melta is -2 with anti tank 4+ which becomes 3+ in short range.

So, against which weapon will that invul save be actually relevant?

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Stuff like the Aspiring Sorcerer would probably have to be its own card, right? It is already a bit awkward sharing space with the rubrics with the way things are formatted now and I doubt they'd even have room on the new datacards.

I imagine Rubrics/Scarabs will have All is Dust and then the rest of the sheet will be the sorcerer's spells. All is Dust doesn't have to cover heavy penalties any longer since that is covered by baked in BS. Double tap at 24" went away for termies so unless they give us the old 'Slow and Purposeful' the stuff like Malicious Volleys will be gone.



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Spoletta wrote:
Invul saves were a concern when AP was high.

Now we are seeing former -4 weapons (sometimes -5) being scaled back to -2.

At this point plasma is -2 for sure.

I wouldn't be surprised if even melta is -2 with anti tank 4+ which becomes 3+ in short range.

So, against which weapon will that invul save be actually relevant?

3++ saves were a concern when they were common. A few here and there isn't bad. A 4++ isn't uncommon at all.

I doubt melta or plasma will go down that far, but I do look forward to how it might change mechanically.




Automatically Appended Next Post:


The rules are following the kit. The sarge in that unit can't switch his weapon at all. I will go with none of the above.

TreeStewges wrote:
Except that the power weapon is just called power weapon. This would mean that sergeants, lieutenants and captains no longer have extra attacks compared to each other.

GW has already said that the name of the weapon has no bearing on what stats it will have on different cards. Not all Power Weapons will be 4 Attacks. It has 4 Attacks on this card because that's how many attacks the model using it(The Sergeant as very clearly indicated by the models) has.

All calling it "Power Weapons" does is that we're not tied to modelling it a certain way.

Asmodios wrote:

Yes that's true, i was just saying this new keyword technically allows you to hobby on any power weapon for hobby purposes and allows you to run it under this generic profile

Well you are assuming that power weapon covers thunderhammer(fist would be more appropriate...) based on..what? Datasheet not having weapon unit can't even use?

Are stormbolters and lasguns combined because sheet doesn't show lasgun? Cyclone and multl melta? Assault cannon and punisher cannon?

Spoletta wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I would say because it isn't a common item shared among all cards and prevents confusion, I guess.

I would argue that it adds to confusion because it's so easy to overlook.


Unrelated, I see GW's concerns over invulnerable save creep didn't last long, given that terminators now have a 4++ as standard.

Invul saves were a concern when AP was high.

Now we are seeing former -4 weapons (sometimes -5) being scaled back to -2.

At this point plasma is -2 for sure.

I wouldn't be surprised if even melta is -2 with anti tank 4+ which becomes 3+ in short range.

So, against which weapon will that invul save be actually relevant?

I'd wager that e.g. monstrous creatures will have not only high-strength attacks, but also pretty hefty AP values on their non-sweep CC attacks, from the video trailer i'd guess that the Screamer-Killer and the Shrike/Tyranid Prime will be in a range that makes the invulnerable save relevant, the latter ripped a Terminator in half in the trailer...

Spoletta wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I would say because it isn't a common item shared among all cards and prevents confusion, I guess.

I would argue that it adds to confusion because it's so easy to overlook.


Unrelated, I see GW's concerns over invulnerable save creep didn't last long, given that terminators now have a 4++ as standard.

Invul saves were a concern when AP was high.

Now we are seeing former -4 weapons (sometimes -5) being scaled back to -2.

At this point plasma is -2 for sure.

I wouldn't be surprised if even melta is -2 with anti tank 4+ which becomes 3+ in short range.

So, against which weapon will that invul save be actually relevant?

If that's melta rule toughness of tanks better go up a lot. Rhino 8, russ 9 etc.

Autowounding on same as you wound anyway isn't impressive

Note that the auto-wound is also a Critical... Thing.

That might tie into other rules. Say, a Melta Crit does 2 extra damage. So targeting a Rhino (if it stays T7) at max range means that a 3 to-wound does d6 damage, while a 4+ to-wound does d6+2.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Note that the auto-wound is also a Critical... Thing.

That might tie into other rules. Say, a Melta Crit does 2 extra damage. So targeting a Rhino (if it stays T7) at max range means that a 3 to-wound does d6 damage, while a 4+ to-wound does d6+2.

Yes, by using defined terms, they can chain stuff together. Melta having Anti-Armour(3+) and a 'The Meltinizer' rule that says 'Every time this weapon causes a critical hit, it causes an additional mortal wound / damage for this hit is doubled / no armour saves are allowed against that hit' would make their special rule more deadly against tanks, but not remove it completely against other targets.

I'd strongly adivse people to look at the Vindicare profile in the PDF that got released some time ago, IMHO some of its skills are practically 10th edition rules avant la lettre

I wonder how / if they will represent things like wolf gaurd terminator squad leaders, rubric socrcers and boss nob squad leaders. Will they need their own card or will it all be tied together. Also, will there be room on a datacard for all the weapon options that currently come in some kits, like, will they bring out all the combi options on each card or will combi weapons become a single weapon or w/e ... I am especially currious about sergeant/ you can take 0-1 stuff that has very different wargear from the rest of the unit

 Type40 wrote:
I wonder how / if they will represent things like wolf gaurd terminator squad leaders, rubric socrcers and boss nob squad leaders. Will they need their own card or will it all be tied together. Also, will there be room on a datacard for all the weapon options that currently come in some kits, like, will they bring out all the combi options on each card or will combi weapons become a single weapon or w/e ... I am especially currious about sergeant/ you can take 0-1 stuff that has very different wargear from the rest of the unit

The cyclone on termies is no different from combi. All that stuff will be on the sheet -- there definitely won't be a separate sheet for sergeants. They're just going to have to be a little creative with some.

well, thiers A few ways to do it:

1) have a "sgts sword" weapon profile if hes armed with the same weapon as his men with the extra attack. they've already indicated that weapon profiles can vary between users, so a captain with a chainsword will have more attacks with a higher WS than a cultist with a chainsword, and possible better damage or AP if they wanted.

2) have a "sgt" ability in the unit abilites box that grants the unit 1 extra attack with that weapon profile. i think this is the least likely option, personally, but i cant rule it out.

3) sgts no longer automatically get an extra attack for having a few stripes. we've seen they grant no extra LD bonus (it appears to be embodied in the main statline), so its possible they just dont give him an extra punch.

Yea honestly who ever pulled their sarge first and took a LD hit? The LD differential was almost pointless for the way the rules worked.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea honestly who ever pulled their sarge first and took a LD hit?

Min size Devastator Squads.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea honestly who ever pulled their sarge first and took a LD hit?

Min size Devastator Squads.

Havoc Squads, where you don't even get more than min :(

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea honestly who ever pulled their sarge first and took a LD hit? The LD differential was almost pointless for the way the rules worked.

Terminators, all the time, better to keep Powerfists/Chainfists/Heavy Weapons. The Sarge in a Terminator Squad is the fella with the worst wargear.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea honestly who ever pulled their sarge first and took a LD hit? The LD differential was almost pointless for the way the rules worked.

Terminators, all the time, better to keep Powerfists/Chainfists/Heavy Weapons. The Sarge in a Terminator Squad is the fella with the worst wargear.

And it looks like that hasn't changed with this datasheet either.

This Terminator Datasheet Preview is just chock full of information and possible design cues. I'll not retread that already discussed but I did notice a few interesting ones.

The Terminator Sergeant: There are no differences between this model and the rest of the squad we can see other that it presumedly being the model armed with the power weapon. Is this a design element of most units in 10th Edition or just a callback to pre-8th Edition where all Space Marine Veteran models had the same Attack and Leadership characteristics?

Leadership: Isn't odd that Intercessors and Terminators have the same Leadership scores? That only happened in pre-8th Edition when the Troops squads had a Veteran Sergeant model in them. Remember the good old days when you didn't have to pay for a Veteran Sergeant if you didn't want to?

Stratagem Card: I hope all the Stratagems are actually written out like Rapid Ingress. When, Target, Effect, and Restrictions on every stratagem? Yes, please.

Abilities: I like how they marked out the Core and Faction Abilities to tell you where to go looking for them. No rifling through the wrong book. Now we just need to hope they don't tell you to look at other units for an ability like the have done far to often in the past.

They've doubled down on their toughness fetish.

I will be interested to see how 'speed defence' is represented in this version, because there are no basic mechanics capable of representing it.

Are all eldar going to get a 4+ reflexes save or something?

Because they aren't tough and tough is all gw seems to care about...

xerxeskingofking wrote:
well, thiers A few ways to do it:

1) have a "sgts sword" weapon profile if hes armed with the same weapon as his men with the extra attack. they've already indicated that weapon profiles can vary between users, so a captain with a chainsword will have more attacks with a higher WS than a cultist with a chainsword, and possible better damage or AP if they wanted.

2) have a "sgt" ability in the unit abilites box that grants the unit 1 extra attack with that weapon profile. i think this is the least likely option, personally, but i cant rule it out.

3) sgts no longer automatically get an extra attack for having a few stripes. we've seen they grant no extra LD bonus (it appears to be embodied in the main statline), so its possible they just dont give him an extra punch.

This all makes a lot of sense, but I guess the bigger question for me is when a model has more wounds or a different save/invul then the rest of the squad, like a wolf gaurd termie or a boss nob. I guess both those things can also be abilities... Or maybe units with those kinds of options get cut out completely? I dunno, I hope not ...

 Hellebore wrote:
They've doubled down on their toughness fetish.

I will be interested to see how 'speed defence' is represented in this version, because there are no basic mechanics capable of representing it.

Are all eldar going to get a 4+ reflexes save or something?

Because they aren't tough and tough is all gw seems to care about...

That was said on the reveal stream that they've gone past the artificial ceiling of T8

Theyve done that while not upping the strength of weapons, which means your elves now get to be tankier too (i assume anything wraith will be t8+, vypers will probably go up to T6-7, etc.)