Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Trickstick wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Depending on timing and wording the second one may get fewer due to no longer firing at 30 boyz ofc

Blast bonus is determined using unit size when the target is selected, so you dont lose attacks.

Ah ok. I see it now.

Which is probably a good thing, it really would be a headache to do it the other way. Also, there are probably some shennanigans you could pull with the order you resolve your weapons. Maybe it would be better to resolve multi damage weapons before the blasts, against multi wound units?

It is still an AP-1 weapon.

It fails to kill 5 tac marines if they are in cover or use Go To Ground.

It doesn't put a Rhino at half wounds if it uses smoke.

People really underestimate how much of a difference rerolls and high AP did.

2 Knights with double battle cannon can shoot each other for 5 turns without one going down.

Tyel wrote:
I guess for sweeping judgements, hordes are dead (and they weren't exactly alive in 9th).

I think that might be presumptive. There are a lot of changes 9th -> 10th that appear to benefit hordes.

-One extra shot per 5 models is a lot less impactful than automatic max shots on a 2D6 attack weapon, and you have to get beyond 15 models for it to be more effective with a D6 attack weapon. So having 11+ models isn't the death sentence it was in 9th.
-Battleshock tests triggering at half strength rather than just causing you to lose more models means larger units aren't unfairly penalized by morale.
-We've seen a number of stratagems for replenishing models; those will be a lot more useful on larger units than smaller ones which get nuked in one round of shooting.
-CP in general being more limited incentivizes allocating resources to larger units.
-The change to how LOS/cover is determined mean large units will still be able to claim cover on part of the unit, even from minor bits of scatter terrain.
-Characters join individual units and confer abilities to just that unit, so again, better to have a large unit.

Those all add up to paint a pretty different picture from 9th, where there was really no advantage to taking large units if you could avoid it. I expect we'll see some units that benefit from larger squad sizes, and others that are better staying as MSU, depending on what force-multipliers they have access to.

I get the feeling that everything is a bit more specialised now. The battlecannons are great horde killers, but really don't bother vehicles that much. Plasma isn't the anti-everything that it used to be. So, hopefully, taking enough tools to deal with everything will be neccessary. Of course, skew lists could mess this up. That is just a meta thing though, will have to be considered carefully.

 Trickstick wrote:
I get the feeling that everything is a bit more specialised now. The battlecannons are great horde killers, but really don't bother vehicles that much. Plasma isn't the anti-everything that it used to be. So, hopefully, taking enough tools to deal with everything will be neccessary. Of course, skew lists could mess this up. That is just a meta thing though, will have to be considered carefully.

Good more specialization should produce more variety in army compasition. Now they just. Need to make sure that all armys have option for each type of enemy.

 Trickstick wrote:
I get the feeling that everything is a bit more specialised now.

Making the changes to combi-weapons even more baffling...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
I get the feeling that everything is a bit more specialised now.

Making the changes to combi-weapons even more baffling...

Was there anything other than the example datasheet in the core leak? I had discounted that as not-current, due to the inconsistencies on that sheet.

 Trickstick wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
I get the feeling that everything is a bit more specialised now.

Making the changes to combi-weapons even more baffling...

Was there anything other than the example datasheet in the core leak? I had discounted that as not-current, due to the inconsistencies on that sheet.

There have been multiple datasheets shown on WHC with the same profile across all the 10th articles.

Most recently Blightlords in the Death Guard FF

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/17/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-death-guard-2/

Aren't Blightlords one of those "for every 5 models in the unit, take [insert different combi-weapon]" a dozen times?

The one thing I have noted is that all the Combi-Weapons are on Terminator models: Librarian in Terminator Armour, Captain in Terminator Armour, Blightlord Terminators. Leaves me with fading hope that Combi-Weapon is a Terminator thing.

 alextroy wrote:
The one thing I have noted is that all the Combi-Weapons are on Terminator models: Librarian in Terminator Armour, Captain in Terminator Armour, Blightlord Terminators. Leaves me with fading hope that Combi-Weapon is a Terminator thing.

It definitely feels like they just didn't want to put weapon options on the sprues for their various Terminator Characters.

Condensed combis is super lame.

Tyran wrote:Aren't Blightlords one of those "for every 5 models in the unit, take [insert different combi-weapon]" a dozen times?

Twice, but yes.

Insectum7 wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
The one thing I have noted is that all the Combi-Weapons are on Terminator models: Librarian in Terminator Armour, Captain in Terminator Armour, Blightlord Terminators. Leaves me with fading hope that Combi-Weapon is a Terminator thing.

It definitely feels like they just didn't want to put weapon options on the sprues for their various Terminator Characters.

Condensed combis is super lame.

They are really leaning hard into the no sprue, no rules thing and it is harming units that can out fit their models properly.

Boosykes 809431 11537307 wrote:

Good more specialization should produce more variety in army compasition. Now they just. Need to make sure that all armys have option for each type of enemy.

But that requires your index/codex to be writen that way, and that is based on what is in the box sold for a specific faction and the number of unit it has access to.

I'm happy with the Martial Ka'Tah and the Strat, but a little disappointed that I'm going to have to change all of my axes over to spears now.

And Sisters of Silence are even now, some how, more irrelevant than they were previously.

 Lord Clinto wrote:
I'm happy with the Martial Ka'Tah and the Strat, but a little disappointed that I'm going to have to change all of my axes over to spears now.

And Sisters of Silence are even now, some how, more irrelevant than they were previously.

Why would you drop your axes?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:
I'm happy with the Martial Ka'Tah and the Strat, but a little disappointed that I'm going to have to change all of my axes over to spears now.

And Sisters of Silence are even now, some how, more irrelevant than they were previously.

Why would you drop your axes?

3+ to hit (vs 2+) and -1 AP (vs -2), I'd guess. And fewer attacks.

It doesn't help that against a lot of targets (more than before with the vehicle and terminator changes), S9 and S7 are functionally identical.

I'm not sure offhand its mathematically the right call, but the axe's statline is definitely not a shining star. Especially if you go for lethal hits stance and want extra chances for 6s which auto wound, and the strength difference doesn't matter at all (but the AP does).

Voss wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:
I'm happy with the Martial Ka'Tah and the Strat, but a little disappointed that I'm going to have to change all of my axes over to spears now.

And Sisters of Silence are even now, some how, more irrelevant than they were previously.

Why would you drop your axes?

3+ to hit (vs 2+) and -1 AP (vs -2), I'd guess. And fewer attacks.

It doesn't help that against a lot of targets (more than before with the vehicle and terminator changes), S9 and S7 are functionally identical.

I'm not sure offhand its mathematically the right call, but the axe's statline is definitely not a shining star. Especially if you go for lethal hits stance and want extra chances for 6s which auto wound, and the strength difference doesn't matter at all (but the AP does).

Yea looking at the math it is not favor of the axes unless there's some DW ability floating out there.

The axes will be useful into terminators, but that's mostly it. They're pretty close when put into vehicle / monster. Sustained definitely the better option for Axes.

Still, I'd just do counts-as if possible.

 Lord Clinto wrote:
I'm happy with the Martial Ka'Tah and the Strat, but a little disappointed that I'm going to have to change all of my axes over to spears now.

And Sisters of Silence are even now, some how, more irrelevant than they were previously.

SOS don't look.... terrible. They will at least have a very small niche if embedded psyker characters start running the meta.

They don't look great. But they look at least passable for sniping squishy snipers out of units that rely on numbers of mooks to shield them. The weirdboy kind of jumps (pun intended) to mind.

 Afrodactyl wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:
I'm happy with the Martial Ka'Tah and the Strat, but a little disappointed that I'm going to have to change all of my axes over to spears now.

And Sisters of Silence are even now, some how, more irrelevant than they were previously.

SOS don't look.... terrible. They will at least have a very small niche if embedded psyker characters start running the meta.

They don't look great. But they look at least passable for sniping squishy snipers out of units that rely on numbers of mooks to shield them. The weirdboy kind of jumps (pun intended) to mind.

The weirdboy that they wound on 5s? That they have to get within 12" of to get a reasonable number of shots? Within 12" of the ork army is not a good spot for them.

The oddest part is their psychic protection doesn't do anything for the more valuable units around them. And it only protects them from direct damage.

They just sort of water down an army that is going to be very conscious of how few useful models they have.

 Afrodactyl wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:
I'm happy with the Martial Ka'Tah and the Strat, but a little disappointed that I'm going to have to change all of my axes over to spears now.

And Sisters of Silence are even now, some how, more irrelevant than they were previously.

SOS don't look.... terrible. They will at least have a very small niche if embedded psyker characters start running the meta.

They don't look great. But they look at least passable for sniping squishy snipers out of units that rely on numbers of mooks to shield them. The weirdboy kind of jumps (pun intended) to mind.

Maybe silent sisters get some other shenanigans to mess with psykers even more when all the rules drop. Sofar the bananaboys look really solid. T7 terminators was unexpected.

Tiberias wrote:

 Afrodactyl wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:
I'm happy with the Martial Ka'Tah and the Strat, but a little disappointed that I'm going to have to change all of my axes over to spears now.

And Sisters of Silence are even now, some how, more irrelevant than they were previously.

SOS don't look.... terrible. They will at least have a very small niche if embedded psyker characters start running the meta.

They don't look great. But they look at least passable for sniping squishy snipers out of units that rely on numbers of mooks to shield them. The weirdboy kind of jumps (pun intended) to mind.

Maybe silent sisters get some other shenanigans to mess with psykers even more when all the rules drop. Sofar the bananaboys look really solid. T7 terminators was unexpected.

If you aren't shooting at them with plasma, autocannons, assault cannons or multilasers (or alien equivalents) you basically won't notice toughness 7.

Big guns still wound on 3+, small arms still wound on 5+ (well not lasguns, but whatever. That's true for T6 too)

Like the strength 20+ weapons, it sounds like a bigger deal than it actually is.

Voss wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

 Afrodactyl wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:
I'm happy with the Martial Ka'Tah and the Strat, but a little disappointed that I'm going to have to change all of my axes over to spears now.

And Sisters of Silence are even now, some how, more irrelevant than they were previously.

SOS don't look.... terrible. They will at least have a very small niche if embedded psyker characters start running the meta.

They don't look great. But they look at least passable for sniping squishy snipers out of units that rely on numbers of mooks to shield them. The weirdboy kind of jumps (pun intended) to mind.

Maybe silent sisters get some other shenanigans to mess with psykers even more when all the rules drop. Sofar the bananaboys look really solid. T7 terminators was unexpected.

If you aren't shooting at them with plasma, autocannons, assault cannons or multilasers (or alien equivalents) you basically won't notice toughness 7.

Big guns still wound on 3+, small arms still wound on 5+ (well not lasguns, but whatever. That's true for T6 too)

Like the strength 20+ weapons, it sounds like a bigger deal than it actually is.

Makes a difference in melee. There are still a lot of S5 and S6 weapons. In combination with the new Karate stances where you can give the enemy - 1 to hit, makes the terminators especially quite annoying to remove. Which is fine because they should be difficult to remove, especially considering that these new starts are in all probability coming with a points increase (which is absolutely necessary).

 Lord Clinto wrote:
I'm happy with the Martial Ka'Tah and the Strat, but a little disappointed that I'm going to have to change all of my axes over to spears now.

And Sisters of Silence are even now, some how, more irrelevant than they were previously.

If you feel need to have to change keep in mind you will "have" to change them back to axes in future. Quite possibly in few month

Not to mention maybe spears are overpriced.

Wonder how it works out against different units 3 damage is very useful against some units, especially those with 3 wounds. Strength 9 might make a difference against light vehicles and monsters, too. But the spear is just better against regular Marines so that's pretty much the decision made for most people.

Brickfix wrote:
Wonder how it works out against different units 3 damage is very useful against some units, especially those with 3 wounds. Strength 9 might make a difference against light vehicles and monsters, too. But the spear is just better against regular Marines so that's pretty much the decision made for most people.

Edit Wrong thread.

Brickfix wrote:
Wonder how it works out against different units 3 damage is very useful against some units, especially those with 3 wounds. Strength 9 might make a difference against light vehicles and monsters, too. But the spear is just better against regular Marines so that's pretty much the decision made for most people.

Quick math.

36 Spear Attacks
30 hits
25 wounds against T3-, 20 against T4-6, 15 against T7, 10 against T8-13, 5 against T14
40/3 failed MEQ saves, for 40/3 or 13.33 dead MEQ, 40/3 failed TEQ saves or 6-7 dead TEQ

36 Axe attacks
24 hits
20 wounds against T4-, 16 against T5-8, 12 against T9, 8 against T10-17, T18 doesn't exist as far as we know
10 failed MEQ saves or 10 dead MEQ, 16/3 failed TEQ saves or 5.33 dead TEQ

Hrm. That's... Not encouraging. Terminators, who have 3 wounds, take more damage from Spears than Axes.

T7 and especially T8 will see the Axes the better choice on wound total, at least.
But, let's check something we KNOW is T7. Allarus Custodes.

It takes 2 failed saves from either weapon to kill one.
That's 4 Spear wounds or 6 Axe wounds
8 Spear hits or 9 Axe hits
48/5 or 9.6 Spear attacks as opposed to 27/2 or 13.5 Axe hits.

Okay, how about a Rhino?
5 failed Spear saves, 4 failed Axe saves
15/2 Spear wounds, 8 Axe wounds
45/2 Spear hits, 16 Axe wounds
270/10 or 27 Spear attacks, 24 Axe attacks
Spears are SLIGHTLY worse.

Carnifex?
5 failed Spear saves, 4 failed Axe saves
10 Spear wounds, 12 Axe wounds
30 Spear hits, 24 Axe hits
36 Spear attacks, 36 Axe attacks
Equal.

I don't get why Axes are WS 3+. They better be the cheaper option.

I don't get why Axes are WS 3+. They better be the cheaper option.

I'm going into the 10th edition launch with the expectation of XXX points for (standard unit size) ,+xx points per model (for units that can still have custom sizes, like CSM legionnaires), with weapons costing nothing, just limitations on what they can take. They went too hard on free weapons at the end of 9th to reverse course.

Given the box, 1 model can have a vexallia, any model can carry axe or spear, +0 points.
So XXX points for 3, +xx per extra model, up to 6. (or maybe no options past base 3).

 JNAProductions wrote:

Brickfix wrote:
Wonder how it works out against different units 3 damage is very useful against some units, especially those with 3 wounds. Strength 9 might make a difference against light vehicles and monsters, too. But the spear is just better against regular Marines so that's pretty much the decision made for most people.

Quick math.

36 Spear Attacks
30 hits
25 wounds against T3-, 20 against T4-6, 15 against T7, 10 against T8-13, 5 against T14
40/3 failed MEQ saves, for 40/3 or 13.33 dead MEQ, 40/3 failed TEQ saves or 6-7 dead TEQ

I think your breakpoint on W3 models isn't well represented here --

36 * .833 * .666 * .5 = 10 unsaved each being 2 damage, but needing 2 per model to kill puts them at 5 TEQ.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Brickfix wrote:
Wonder how it works out against different units 3 damage is very useful against some units, especially those with 3 wounds. Strength 9 might make a difference against light vehicles and monsters, too. But the spear is just better against regular Marines so that's pretty much the decision made for most people.

Quick math.

36 Spear Attacks
30 hits
25 wounds against T3-, 20 against T4-6, 15 against T7, 10 against T8-13, 5 against T14
40/3 failed MEQ saves, for 40/3 or 13.33 dead MEQ, 40/3 failed TEQ saves or 6-7 dead TEQ

36 Axe attacks
24 hits
20 wounds against T4-, 16 against T5-8, 12 against T9, 8 against T10-17, T18 doesn't exist as far as we know
10 failed MEQ saves or 10 dead MEQ, 16/3 failed TEQ saves or 5.33 dead TEQ

Hrm. That's... Not encouraging. Terminators, who have 3 wounds, take more damage from Spears than Axes.

T7 and especially T8 will see the Axes the better choice on wound total, at least.
But, let's check something we KNOW is T7. Allarus Custodes.

It takes 2 failed saves from either weapon to kill one.
That's 4 Spear wounds or 6 Axe wounds
8 Spear hits or 9 Axe hits
48/5 or 9.6 Spear attacks as opposed to 27/2 or 13.5 Axe hits.

Okay, how about a Rhino?
5 failed Spear saves, 4 failed Axe saves
15/2 Spear wounds, 8 Axe wounds
45/2 Spear hits, 16 Axe wounds
270/10 or 27 Spear attacks, 24 Axe attacks
Spears are SLIGHTLY worse.

Carnifex?
5 failed Spear saves, 4 failed Axe saves
10 Spear wounds, 12 Axe wounds
30 Spear hits, 24 Axe hits
36 Spear attacks, 36 Axe attacks
Equal.

I don't get why Axes are WS 3+. They better be the cheaper option.

Axes are a bit of a strange design choice imo. Sure being consistent with reducing Ap even for custodes is fine, but if the other option always comes out ahead or is at least equal, why ever use them.
Then again we can only compare raw stats because we don't have the full faction rules so it might all change in a few weeks.