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Psychic dominion only works against psychic attacks. So it could be nasty against something like a warlock conclaive, or maybe som GK unit what spams a ton of those kind of attacks. But not just normal spammed small arms.

 catbarf wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
[Do you have any examples for Deliberately flubbing attacks? I haven't run into it personally, I'm guessing it involves choosing a weaker weapon to ensure you are safe in melee for another round?

Choosing inferior weapons, and/or minimizing the number of models in engagement range, then after making attacks consolidating into tri-pointing to trap the target. It was worse in 8th when every model had access to the basic close combat weapon profile they could use in lieu of their actual weapons.

Also, 10th Ed is making it so that if your pile-in or consolidate distance can get you into base contact, you have to do it. No more spiraling 3" around a unit while technically getting 0.1" closer to the nearest enemy model; if you want to trap a unit you're probably going to have to surround it before you charge.

Frankly, I don't think anything of value is being lost. Play skill shouldn't come from exploiting unintuitive and unintended rules interactions.

No, it should come from the grand tactical decision to sacrifice a Grot or not to sacrifice a Grot, truly 10th will reward skilful play /sarcasm. Even worse, it's based on randomness, so you can get punished for making the right decision. Terrible game changes.

Why even move miniatures around? Shouldn't we just draw our objectives and then choose which grand tactic we want and then roll a number of dice depending on the mission played and our opponent's grand tactic and whoever rolls highest wins. It occurs to me that all these miniatures are making the game devilishly convoluted and requires a great deal of management that isn't in the interest of me playing grand general /sarcasm.

 Nevelon wrote:
Psychic dominion only works against psychic attacks. So it could be nasty against something like a warlock conclaive, or maybe som GK unit what spams a ton of those kind of attacks. But not just normal spammed small arms.

Ah! My bad. That makes more sense. Still, Thousand Sons seem like they'll have some potent tools, at least until they run out of psyker units to fuel their rituals.

 vict0988 wrote:
Even worse, it's based on randomness, so you can get punished for making the right decision.

Yeah, that's how dice-based wargames work. You can influence the odds but not guarantee the outcomes.

If that's a dealbreaker, you shouldn't be playing 40K to begin with, because 10th Ed isn't removing the skill-destroying randumb terrible possibility of rolling 1s to hit.

 catbarf wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
Even worse, it's based on randomness, so you can get punished for making the right decision.

Yeah, that's how dice-based wargames work. You can influence the odds but not guarantee the outcomes.

If that's a dealbreaker, you shouldn't be playing 40K to begin with, because 10th Ed isn't removing the skill-destroying randumb terrible possibility of rolling 1s to hit.

If you like random mechanics so much you should be playing Yatzee /sarcasm. I edited my previous post, maybe you can find another reason why I should leave the hobby in there now.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Psychic dominion only works against psychic attacks. So it could be nasty against something like a warlock conclaive, or maybe som GK unit what spams a ton of those kind of attacks. But not just normal spammed small arms.

Ah! My bad. That makes more sense. Still, Thousand Sons seem like they'll have some potent tools, at least until they run out of psyker units to fuel their rituals.

It's a fun antiPsyker rule to be sure. I agree with you that or of all the previews 1k Sons has been the most exciting, I'm greatly looking forward to the simplified cabal points. I used a cheat sheet in 9th and even with that it still slowed things down a bit while playing.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Psychic Dominion could ruin an attacking unit's day if they have a high rate of fire. (I'm thinking of swooping hawks here.)

unless swooping hawks guns have the [psychic] keyword, psychic dominion does nothing to them

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Wow. Am I crazy, or are the Thousand Sons looking way more spicy than the other previewed factions? Being able to just turn off a unit's armor saves a couple times a game is huge. Plus, Doombolt is kind of terrifying, and Psychic Dominion could ruin an attacking unit's day if they have a high rate of fire. (I'm thinking of swooping hawks here.)

Inferno Bolts going down to AP-1 was a surprise to me though. I thought they'd remain at AP-2 given that they used to be AP3 and that being good at punching through heavy armor has traditionally been one of their main things.

But yeah, this is the first preview where I'm actually excited about each thing previewed.

I'm really happy with them so far. They lost lots of durability from what we can see at the moment, but gained ways to do damage.

As I said elsewhere -- I think Doombolt is the better use of CP over Twist ( strip saves ) since it requires a lot of fire power with low AP for it to be relevant.

Their bolters were AP2 in 9th, but with reductions across the board it makes sense to be AP1 now.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Wow. Am I crazy, or are the Thousand Sons looking way more spicy than the other previewed factions? Being able to just turn off a unit's armor saves a couple times a game is huge. Plus, Doombolt is kind of terrifying, and Psychic Dominion could ruin an attacking unit's day if they have a high rate of fire. (I'm thinking of swooping hawks here.)

Inferno Bolts going down to AP-1 was a surprise to me though. I thought they'd remain at AP-2 given that they used to be AP3 and that being good at punching through heavy armor has traditionally been one of their main things.

But yeah, this is the first preview where I'm actually excited about each thing previewed.

Yeah bit surprised at the fact they actually seem ok, was expecting them to get shafted in this update.

Twist is nice, but I very much doubt you'd be using it often. Doing a bit of rough maths my current TS list would have netted me 16CP, now going off the previews it'll be closer to 10, so I doubt I'd have enough CP to use Twist more than once in an entire game.

Don't mind the bolter change, the 5" move is a bit naff but not the end of the world. The smite is a bit odd, just a couple of Ap-3 bolter shots, yet people on FB were saying how amazing and devastating it'll be. Am I missing something?

The main thing that I didn't like was how bland some of it seemed. Ahriman's vast array of psychic potential is now...a single S6 shot?

 Valkyrie wrote:
Twist is nice, but I very much doubt you'd be using it often. Doing a bit of rough maths my current TS list would have netted me 16CP, now going off the previews it'll be closer to 10, so I doubt I'd have enough CP to use Twist more than once in an entire game.

Don't mind the bolter change, the 5" move is a bit naff but not the end of the world. The smite is a bit odd, just a couple of Ap-3 bolter shots, yet people on FB were saying how amazing and devastating it'll be. Am I missing something?

The main thing that I didn't like was how bland some of it seemed. Ahriman's vast array of psychic potential is now...a single S6 shot?

Well, Ahriman can snipe with that. His disc version will probably have a different spell.

You'll likely have even fewer cabal points, because there's strong incentive for bigger units with that +1 to wound. I imagine other buffs will encourage that as well.

Warpsmite is decent. It's very consistent into infantry and should do 1MW on average and more when you can go fishing with full wound rerolls. Apply Sustained Hits and you'll be able to get 3 to 4 MW if you spike 6s to hit.

I actually feel like both big units and MSU (or a balanced combination) are viable. Going MSU with rubrics means more Cabal Points and more Warpsmites. Big squads get better mileage out of icons (assuming those cost points), rituals, etc.

Warpsmite seems respectable. I'm less scared of it (on paper) than I was of regular smite spam in 9th, and its limited range means you won't likely be tossing a bunch of them out on turn 1, but it seems reliable.

Agreed that Doombolt will generally be the better way to go. But oh boy will it be fun when you have occassion to tell a bunch of Sang Guard or Meganobz that they won't be getting their armor against the dozens of incoming cultist/tzaangor attacks.

(I love my tzaangor models. Here's hoping they're good.)

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I'm really happy with them so far. They lost lots of durability from what we can see at the moment, but gained ways to do damage.

Anyone else find it weird that a bunch of the noteworthy durability factions got their durability nerfed in an edition where stuff is supposed to be more durable? Necrons, Death Guard, and Thousand Sons are all squishier one way or another. The one exception is Custodes, and feth Custodes.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I'm really happy with them so far. They lost lots of durability from what we can see at the moment, but gained ways to do damage.

Anyone else find it weird that a bunch of the noteworthy durability factions got their durability nerfed in an edition where stuff is supposed to be more durable? Necrons, Death Guard, and Thousand Sons are all squishier one way or another. The one exception is Custodes, and feth Custodes.

It makes sense. All those things got added, because there was too much damage. It's why we saw the lopsided army results until almost everyone had a book. Eventually they even had to unwind all of Admech nerfs.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


It makes sense. All those things got added, because there was too much damage. It's why we saw the lopsided army results until almost everyone had a book. Eventually they even had to unwind all of Admech nerfs.

fair enough, but given that one of the Rubrics defining abilities, basically since they were introduced, was resilience to small arms, it seems odd that such they made them no tougher than regular marines.

unless that becomes a detachment ability of a future "rubric wall" detachment in Tsons codex....

 Daedalus81 wrote:
It makes sense. All those things got added, because there was too much damage. It's why we saw the lopsided army results until almost everyone had a book. Eventually they even had to unwind all of Admech nerfs.

Maybe my memory is wrong, but I feel those things were added at the outset of 8th edition rather than because of 9th's excesses?

I want to say Rubrics just being "Marines with a 5++" was how it was in 7th, but I could be wrong there too. (Ditto with Plague Marines being T5 Marines.)

I can see why you wouldn't want to give a 2+ save when lots of stuff is being reduced to AP-1 only. And sort of the same with Plague Marines for why FNP or -1 damage might be a bit good. But it does feel a bit... uninspired.

xerxeskingofking wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


It makes sense. All those things got added, because there was too much damage. It's why we saw the lopsided army results until almost everyone had a book. Eventually they even had to unwind all of Admech nerfs.

fair enough, but given that one of the Rubrics defining abilities, basically since they were introduced, was resilience to small arms, it seems odd that such they made them no tougher than regular marines.

unless that becomes a detachment ability of a future "rubric wall" detachment in Tsons codex....

Going back to 3.5 when I started I seem to think they had a 5+ invuln, then they went to 2 wounds I think, then back down to 1 + an invuln again, then all is dust. It's not specifically small arms they've been good against, it's switched back and forth with a tendency to surviving heavier weapons. When they lose durability they tend to gain punch iirc over the years.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:


I want to say Rubrics just being "Marines with a 5++" was how it was in 7th, but I could be wrong there too. (Ditto with Plague Marines being T5 Marines.)

Pretty much.

Tyel wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
It makes sense. All those things got added, because there was too much damage. It's why we saw the lopsided army results until almost everyone had a book. Eventually they even had to unwind all of Admech nerfs.

Maybe my memory is wrong, but I feel those things were added at the outset of 8th edition rather than because of 9th's excesses?

I want to say Rubrics just being "Marines with a 5++" was how it was in 7th, but I could be wrong there too. (Ditto with Plague Marines being T5 Marines.)

I can see why you wouldn't want to give a 2+ save when lots of stuff is being reduced to AP-1 only. And sort of the same with Plague Marines for why FNP or -1 damage might be a bit good. But it does feel a bit... uninspired.

All is Dust was there, but -1D for a strat, -1D on dreads, W2 on Rubrics, W3 on scarabs, and a 5++ across the board came in 9th.

 Valkyrie wrote:
change, the 5" move is a bit naff but not the end of the world. The smite is a bit odd, just a couple of Ap-3 bolter shots, yet people on FB were saying how amazing and devastating it'll be. Am I missing something?

Maybe detachment bonus buffing those?

Exploding hits/auto wounds/mortals as needed

Also vs infantry that's 4+(regardless of t) to wound doing mw

After this round of each faction is over, is there going to be another, or some other kind of previews?

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
After this round of each faction is over, is there going to be another, or some other kind of previews?

Wich sounds more plausible?
A) More previews of some sort.
B) GW suddenly going to go radio silent as a means to hype thier new edition.

xerxeskingofking wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


It makes sense. All those things got added, because there was too much damage. It's why we saw the lopsided army results until almost everyone had a book. Eventually they even had to unwind all of Admech nerfs.

fair enough, but given that one of the Rubrics defining abilities, basically since they were introduced, was resilience to small arms, it seems odd that such they made them no tougher than regular marines.

unless that becomes a detachment ability of a future "rubric wall" detachment in Tsons codex....

Hmm. This is a good point. Being suits of haunted armor (and having psyker sergeants) are kind of the main things that make rubricae rubricae. Inferno bolts are neat too, but a rubricae holding a more conventional gun would still be a rubricae. It's the mindless automata with no guts to spill (and the psyker sergeant) that defines them.

These rules seem to be nailing the psyker sergeants, but they don't convey the idea that a rubric marine is harder to kill than a normal marine. I guess you could squint and say that the move to 2 wounds means that normal marines and rubricae are both in the same durability ballpark? Or it could just be that GW didn't want to double-dip on defensive abilities. It looks like our detachment options will be themed around the cults, so I imagine that at least one of the cults will be able to make them -1 to hit or something.

IDK. The rubricae being extra hard to kill is a bit of lore that I really like, but I also never liked their invuln save mechanics (makes them tougher against big guns instead of little guns), and I don't think I'd want them to have a FNP or what have you now. Maybe my tune will change once we have more perspective.

All Is Dust making Rubrics tougher isn't just a 9th thing. It's far older than that.

For the most part it was the invul back in the day, when that was pretty rare for a unit to have access to.

Will be interested to see if the Warlock conclave unit gets some kind of similar rule to the Tsons to reflect their combined psychic might.

Thousand sons in 2nd ed were relatively weak. The Energy Drain psychic card was brutal, something I used to my advantage a few times.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Wow. Am I crazy, or are the Thousand Sons looking way more spicy than the other previewed factions? Being able to just turn off a unit's armor saves a couple times a game is huge. Plus, Doombolt is kind of terrifying, and Psychic Dominion could ruin an attacking unit's day if they have a high rate of fire. (I'm thinking of swooping hawks here.)

Inferno Bolts going down to AP-1 was a surprise to me though. I thought they'd remain at AP-2 given that they used to be AP3 and that being good at punching through heavy armor has traditionally been one of their main things.

But yeah, this is the first preview where I'm actually excited about each thing previewed.

I'm really happy with them so far. They lost lots of durability from what we can see at the moment, but gained ways to do damage.

As I said elsewhere -- I think Doombolt is the better use of CP over Twist ( strip saves ) since it requires a lot of fire power with low AP for it to be relevant.

Their bolters were AP2 in 9th, but with reductions across the board it makes sense to be AP1 now.

I'm not sure I agree with doombolt over twist. Twisting something and unloading some Terminator bolters into the unit seems like a perfect and typical use. Flamers as well. Also just putting something to their invuln save if they have a bse 2+ save is super nice on the flamers.

At one point Rubrics were simply immune to weapons below a certain strength. And later Rubrics had 2 wounds before it was cool, and, from what I heard, it signified that they had something going for them.

Overall there seems to be a general line of redefining what various factions are in 10th.

Space Marines have shifted to "And They Shall Oaths of Moment", something that was never a big part of Marines and was invented - IIRC - in a Horus Heresy novel. Sisters of Silence don't appear to do anything to Psykers, which is bizarre. Chaos Marines now constantly kill themselves by entreating the Chaos Gods (one wonders how there are any of them left 10,000 years after the Heresy). Death Guard don't appear to be as tough as they were (and their previous toughness rules weren't just due to 9th lethality). Rubrics are the same (and, again, their inherent high resistance to damage has been around since 3rd Ed). Can you imagine if Waaagh had been a detachment rule rather than a faction rule? Shadow of the Warp may be the most boring rule GW's written in a half decade, but at least it's intrinsic to the Tyranids as a faction.

It's one thing to simplify the rules, but it's another to fundamentally shift the common traits of entire factions.

 Nevelon wrote:
Psychic dominion only works against psychic attacks. So it could be nasty against something like a warlock conclaive, or maybe som GK unit what spams a ton of those kind of attacks. But not just normal spammed small arms.

It's in any phase, so pop it in the fight phase against GK melee, to effectively neuter that unit's attacks.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Actually quite suprised they gave Makari rules and did not just use him as a marker like Tau droneswith his rules folded into Ghaz's main ones?

It's because of the Makari led all Grot army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sad to see Ghaz get smaller instead of continuing his rise to Prime Ork/Primarch status.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
At one point Rubrics were simply immune to weapons below a certain strength. And later Rubrics had 2 wounds before it was cool, and, from I heard, it signified that they had something going for them.

Overall there seems to be a general line of redefining what various factions are in 10th.

Space Marines have shifted to "And They Shall Oaths of Moment", something that was never a big part of Marines and was invented - IIRC - in a Horus Heresy novel. Sisters of Silence don't appear to do anything to Psykers, which is bizarre. Chaos Marines now constantly kill themselves by entreating the Chaos Gods (one wonders how there are any of them left 10,000 years after the Heresy). Death Guard don't appear to be as tough as they were (and their previous toughness rules weren't just due to 9th lethality). Rubrics are the same (and, again, their inherent high resistance to damage has been around since 3rd Ed). Can you imagine if Waaagh had been a detachment rule rather than a faction rule? Shadow of the Warp may be the most boring rule GW's written in a half decade, but at least it's intrinsic to the Tyranids as a faction.

It's one thing to simplify the rules, but it's another to fundamentally shift the common traits of entire factions.

I honestly don't get the negativity towards the SiTW. For a half army rule it is quite nice. Fits well with the theme and adds a powerful resource to the player that must be used at the right moment. Both for gameplay and fluff it seems good.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
At one point Rubrics were simply immune to weapons below a certain strength. And later Rubrics had 2 wounds before it was cool, and, from I heard, it signified that they had something going for them.

Overall there seems to be a general line of redefining what various factions are in 10th.

Space Marines have shifted to "And They Shall Oaths of Moment", something that was never a big part of Marines and was invented - IIRC - in a Horus Heresy novel. Sisters of Silence don't appear to do anything to Psykers, which is bizarre. Chaos Marines now constantly kill themselves by entreating the Chaos Gods (one wonders how there are any of them left 10,000 years after the Heresy). Death Guard don't appear to be as tough as they were (and their previous toughness rules weren't just due to 9th lethality). Rubrics are the same (and, again, their inherent high resistance to damage has been around since 3rd Ed). Can you imagine if Waaagh had been a detachment rule rather than a faction rule? Shadow of the Warp may be the most boring rule GW's written in a half decade, but at least it's intrinsic to the Tyranids as a faction.

It's one thing to simplify the rules, but it's another to fundamentally shift the common traits of entire factions.

My patchy memory seems to recall they got ap3 bolters at the same time as the 2nd wound and relentless all at once which gave them a spike, but they've also had several iterations where the extra durability was an invuln, which they still have. To be fair on chaos marines I'm sat here trying to conceptualise a rule that fits better. Their identity would say that veterans of the long war would be good, but at the same time it's not relevant to recently turned renegades etc. just as death to the false emperor suddenly makes no sense if you're playing against xenos or other chaos. So you come back to a generic chaosy thing and the best I can come up with is something weak like "chaotic hatred" and just have something similar to the combat doctrines from the marine detachment that encourages melee to represent that shift in focus.