Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

You've hit upon a real conundrum of concept here: What are Chaos Marines?

Whereas most (not all) Loyalist Space Marines are defined by their use of the Codex Astartes*, Chaos Marines are most defined by their lack of real definition.

So what is a Chaos Space Marine then, conceptually?

A Veteran of the Long War? Well... not renegades. I doubt the Red Corsairs would be counted among the numbers of the original Legions, and there are plenty of Renegade Chapters.

Are they renegades? Sure, a bunch of them are, but the original Legions are far and above that.

Are they Chaos God-worshiping fanatics? Sure, but some of them don't look to the Chaos Gods at all, and some of them are renegades for entirely non-Chaotic reasons.

So is trying to cover something this broad with a single unifying rule perhaps a bad idea? I'd argue it 100% is, and I'd also argue that the solution they've come up with - "Pray until my gun kills me!" - is perhaps the worst summation or distillation possible of what a Chaos Marine is meant to be.

Wanton Slaughter/Massacre/Whatever the Other One Was may not have been the most inspired set of rules - just 'Evil Doctrines' really - but at least they were generic enough to generally cover the temperament of how we see most Chaos Marines. Members of your squad dying at random doesn't seem like a good substitute in my mind.




*And not fething Oaths of fething Moment...

I enjoy the current CSM faction rule for Chaos worshipping warbands, but it doesn't quite fit the many renegades (and some Legions) who are not as intertwined with the chaos gods. Having more than one CSM faction would fix this.

I've always found it peculiar there are so many separate codexes for loyalists over the years but barely anything until recently with 1k Sons and WE. I guess CSM don't sell nearly as well.

If you don't want to play Chaos Space Marines you should consider playing Space Marines. Let's say you're playing Heart Marines, Marines that aren't douchebags and they decided they don't want to be part of a fascist Imperium so they turn renegade, why shouldn't you continue using the SM rules for them?

I think an interesting dichotomy between Chaos Space Marines and Space Marines would be CSM buffing one of their units to kill everything vs Space Marines buffing everything to kill one thing. Call it Eye of the Gods, but don't give it any downsides and then you can have some more interesting CSM rules in Detachments.

I don't think Oaths of Moment is a problem, it represents the Space Marines coming in and solving a problem and it even shows how Space Marines alone cannot solve every problem at once. It's also a better universal Space Marine rule than Combat Doctrines were because Combat Doctrines aren't fit to represent a first company fighting on its own or a reserve company fighting on its own, therefore íf you wanted rules to represent how the elements of a Tactical Company work together according to the Codex Astartes it should be in a Detachment.

 Sasori wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Wow. Am I crazy, or are the Thousand Sons looking way more spicy than the other previewed factions? Being able to just turn off a unit's armor saves a couple times a game is huge. Plus, Doombolt is kind of terrifying, and Psychic Dominion could ruin an attacking unit's day if they have a high rate of fire. (I'm thinking of swooping hawks here.)

Inferno Bolts going down to AP-1 was a surprise to me though. I thought they'd remain at AP-2 given that they used to be AP3 and that being good at punching through heavy armor has traditionally been one of their main things.

But yeah, this is the first preview where I'm actually excited about each thing previewed.

I'm really happy with them so far. They lost lots of durability from what we can see at the moment, but gained ways to do damage.

As I said elsewhere -- I think Doombolt is the better use of CP over Twist ( strip saves ) since it requires a lot of fire power with low AP for it to be relevant.

Their bolters were AP2 in 9th, but with reductions across the board it makes sense to be AP1 now.

I'm not sure I agree with doombolt over twist. Twisting something and unloading some Terminator bolters into the unit seems like a perfect and typical use. Flamers as well. Also just putting something to their invuln save if they have a bse 2+ save is super nice on the flamers.

Also at least first few turns you likely can do both.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So is trying to cover something this broad with a single unifying rule perhaps a bad idea? I'd argue it 100% is, and I'd also argue that the solution they've come up with - "Pray until my gun kills me!" - is perhaps the worst summation or distillation possible of what a Chaos Marine is meant to be.

Don't jinx it!

In reference to the above clip:

 vict0988 wrote:
I don't think Oaths of Moment is a problem, it represents the Space Marines coming in and solving a problem and it even shows how Space Marines alone cannot solve every problem at once.

It feels like something pulled out of no where and said to have always been the central unifying aspect of Space Marines, even though it so clearly isn't (it was invented for a different setting FFS!). A bit like Chaos always having guns that kill them if they pray the wrong way.

 vict0988 wrote:
It's also a better universal Space Marine rule than Combat Doctrines were because Combat Doctrines aren't fit to represent a first company fighting on its own or a reserve company fighting on its own, therefore íf you wanted rules to represent how the elements of a Tactical Company work together according to the Codex Astartes it should be in a Detachment.

Except that, by definition, a 1st Company army would be an outlier, whereas the majority of formations from Codex Chapters would be better covered by something that generally shows how they fight: Codex Astartes doctrines. Because it's the most central and generalist thing associated with Marines.

Like I've said before, Oaths of Moment is a perfectly fine detachment rule, representing a rule given to an army that has come together for a specific thing and everyone in the formation has taken - wait for it... - and oath of moment. Then they fight according to the Codex Astartes (hence, Doctrines).

I don't know how you can praise an ability that gets things mostly right for Space Marines despite it being applied to every army, regardless of whether it fits, while complaining about a CSM rule that is applied to everyone because it doesn't fit some outliers.

I don't think every Space Marine army is constantly making Oaths of Moment, but I think the rules of the ability fits with how Space Marine overall engage with the enemies of the Imperium. You could call the ability Sword of the Emperor instead, unless I am getting things mixed up and that's not what they're referred as.

I do think it is important that CSM and Orks have more random rules than other factions and that CSM have more self-damage than SM. I think the new CSM rule is a little hamfisted but I like where they're going generally.

GK rules. Psycanon is a weaker autocanon, Psilance is a 6 shot stormbolter, psychic powers which did MW now are a 1 shot 18" stormbolter shot, and I assume it is 1 shot per squad member, because if GK purfing flame is 1 hit at str 4, then LoL. Auto advance on 6 is nice. Auto gate is very nice. +2sv is good if someone plays strikes. Unless GK termis are running with +4 inv, and with how GK stratagems seem to be 2CP, power armoured stuff will still be favoured.
All nemezis weapons turned in to one is very bad. No str 8 hammer, no staff, nothing. GM NDKs are good , for GKs, against monsters and vehicles. They will need those re-rolls though hiting on a roll of +4 with their hammer lol.
Stratagems are nice, but better for power armoured stuff as they incentise large squads. All in all comparing to the 1ksons rules, it seems a bit less fun. Could be a lot worse, if GW wanted it. GK better have A LOT of extra CP generators if they are to use any stratagems. Nothing for my terminators directly, leaves me cold after the GK review.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
In reference to the above clip:

 vict0988 wrote:
I don't think Oaths of Moment is a problem, it represents the Space Marines coming in and solving a problem and it even shows how Space Marines alone cannot solve every problem at once.

It feels like something pulled out of no where and said to have always been the central unifying aspect of Space Marines, even though it so clearly isn't (it was invented for a different setting FFS!). A bit like Chaos always having guns that kill them if they pray the wrong way.

 vict0988 wrote:
It's also a better universal Space Marine rule than Combat Doctrines were because Combat Doctrines aren't fit to represent a first company fighting on its own or a reserve company fighting on its own, therefore íf you wanted rules to represent how the elements of a Tactical Company work together according to the Codex Astartes it should be in a Detachment.

Except that, by definition, a 1st Company army would be an outlier, whereas the majority of formations from Codex Chapters would be better covered by something that generally shows how they fight: Codex Astartes doctrines. Because it's the most central and generalist thing associated with Marines.

Like I've said before, Oaths of Moment is a perfectly fine detachment rule, representing a rule given to an army that has come together for a specific thing and everyone in the formation has taken - wait for it... - and oath of moment. Then they fight according to the Codex Astartes (hence, Doctrines).

The thing is some Space Marine don't fight according to the Codex Astartes. Space Wolves are famous for not following the Codex Astartes and they are not alone in the annuals of the Adeptus Astartes.

Oath of Moment might not be the best single phrase for what unifies Space Marines, but the rule itself very much embodies their well known focus on tearing apart the enemy one vital piece at a time.

As for Chaos Space Marines, they have always been known for trafficking with the dwellers of Warp for power. While the rule for Dark Pacts is not the best executed Faction rule of the new edition, it is definitely a thing that unifies Chaos Space Marines.

I'm divided about oaths of moment. On the one hand it fits the "drop in and kill a high value target" concept. On the other hand they just took the doom and guide combo that's been a core cwe trick for literal decades, made it even better and handed it to marines (assuming cwe lost it completely here based on the farseer preview).

Don't get me wrong, the cwe stuff looks fine as far as I can tell. But this still is a bit of a headscratcher for me.

 alextroy wrote:
Space Wolves are famous for not following the Codex Astartes and they are not alone in the annuals of the Adeptus Astartes.

How is this relevant? Space Wolves are getting their own book so this wouldn't apply to them anyway!

Most Marine Chapters follow the Codex. The idea that they're more defined by Oaths of Moment than the Codex Astartes is ludicrous.

And yet as far as we know, they will be Faction Adeptus Astartes with Oath of Moment as their faction ability.

Would you be happier if they remained the ability Angels of Death, Codex Astartes, Tip of the Spear, or Head of the Snake?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Most Marine Chapters follow the Codex. The idea that they're more defined by Oaths of Moment than the Codex Astartes is ludicrous.

I think the problem here is pretty superficial. They could have called the ability Codex Astartes or Angels of Death, have some slightly different fluff for it (example: "The Codex Astartes dictates that Space Marines must focus down their enemies one at a time, here, this ability does exactly that.") and it had been better for continuity but made no real difference either way.

 alextroy wrote:
And yet as far as we know, they will be Faction Adeptus Astartes with Oath of Moment as their faction ability.

You really think that the Woofs are going to have the same rules as regular Marines?

 alextroy wrote:
Would you be happier if they remained the ability Angels of Death, Codex Astartes, Tip of the Spear, or Head of the Snake?

No, I'd be happier if Oaths of Moment was a detachment ability, and that the defining trait that is at the core of Codex Chapters be the Codex Astartes, and thus the shown detachment ability (ie. Codex Doctrines!) became the overall army ability. Because it's more fitting that the Adeptus Astartes use the Codex Astartes as their core concept, rather than something Dan Abnett invented for a HH novel.

But thanks for trying to imply that this is an issue of naming, rather than rules.




(If Oaths of Moment showed up before the first HH novel, please enlighten me)

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
And yet as far as we know, they will be Faction Adeptus Astartes with Oath of Moment as their faction ability.

You really think that the Woofs are going to have the same rules as regular Marines?

Given that the Land Raider datacard with Oath of Moment specifically refers to Wulfen, yes.

As far as we know right now, faction abilities are going to cover all the snowflakes.
They'll get snowflake detachments to choose from (in addition to the standard).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Because it's more fitting that the Adeptus Astartes use the Codex Astartes as their core concept, rather than something Dan Abnett invented for a HH novel.

Wait, what? I thought Oath of Moment was just a special snowflake name for the army ability and not an actual thing in the lore. I can't remember it from any of the Horus Heresy novels.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Because it's more fitting that the Adeptus Astartes use the Codex Astartes as their core concept, rather than something Dan Abnett invented for a HH novel.

Wait, what? I thought Oath of Moment was just a special snowflake name for the army ability and not an actual thing in the lore. I can't remember it from any of the Horus Heresy novels.

Suppose to be in Horus Rising by Dan Abnett,Flight of the Eisenstein by James Swallow ,Garro: Oath of Moment (Audio Book) by James Swallow, Prospero Burns by Dan Abnett

According to the w40k wiki at least.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Because it's more fitting that the Adeptus Astartes use the Codex Astartes as their core concept, rather than something Dan Abnett invented for a HH novel.

Wait, what? I thought Oath of Moment was just a special snowflake name for the army ability and not an actual thing in the lore. I can't remember it from any of the Horus Heresy novels.

It comes up a fair number of times.
iirc, they scribble down objectives and oaths while gearing up/loading onto transports and pin the sheets to their armor.
Its more a precursor to purity seals than anything else.


But getting caught up on the ability name. \shrug.

And SW are dead against writing them down, because those things should only exists in sagas and memories of the people present, when they were taken.

Voss wrote:
iirc, they scribble down objectives and oaths while gearing up/loading onto transports and pin the sheets to their armor.
Its more a precursor to purity seals than anything else.

I always understood it to be a wink and a nod to allowing you to use your 40K models to play HH, despite purity seals not being 'era-appropriate'.

Definitely feels like something that has become unexpectedly prominent, and I agree with HBMC that having the Codex-based doctrines be the army rule seems more appropriate.

 catbarf wrote:

Voss wrote:
iirc, they scribble down objectives and oaths while gearing up/loading onto transports and pin the sheets to their armor.
Its more a precursor to purity seals than anything else.

I always understood it to be a wink and a nod to allowing you to use your 40K models to play HH, despite purity seals not being 'era-appropriate'.

Definitely feels like something that has become unexpectedly prominent, and I agree with HBMC that having the Codex-based doctrines be the army rule seems more appropriate.

Don't forget Bobby G even stated that the codex was more of a set of guidelines than anything and doesn't enforce them stringently.

Dudeface wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

Voss wrote:
iirc, they scribble down objectives and oaths while gearing up/loading onto transports and pin the sheets to their armor.
Its more a precursor to purity seals than anything else.

I always understood it to be a wink and a nod to allowing you to use your 40K models to play HH, despite purity seals not being 'era-appropriate'.

Definitely feels like something that has become unexpectedly prominent, and I agree with HBMC that having the Codex-based doctrines be the army rule seems more appropriate.

Don't forget Bobby G even stated that the codex was more of a set of guidelines than anything and doesn't enforce them stringently.

Don't forget that the Imperium is a religious theocracy where a "set of guidelines" becomes iron law after ten thousand -

Oh wait he's back and can just hit Ctrl+Z on the Imperium's intellectual decay tracking spreadsheet, nvm.

Karol wrote:
GK rules. Psycanon is a weaker autocanon, Psilance is a 6 shot stormbolter, psychic powers which did MW now are a 1 shot 18" stormbolter shot, and I assume it is 1 shot per squad member, because if GK purfing flame is 1 hit at str 4, then LoL. Auto advance on 6 is nice. Auto gate is very nice. +2sv is good if someone plays strikes. Unless GK termis are running with +4 inv, and with how GK stratagems seem to be 2CP, power armoured stuff will still be favoured.
All nemezis weapons turned in to one is very bad. No str 8 hammer, no staff, nothing. GM NDKs are good , for GKs, against monsters and vehicles. They will need those re-rolls though hiting on a roll of +4 with their hammer lol.
Stratagems are nice, but better for power armoured stuff as they incentise large squads. All in all comparing to the 1ksons rules, it seems a bit less fun. Could be a lot worse, if GW wanted it. GK better have A LOT of extra CP generators if they are to use any stratagems. Nothing for my terminators directly, leaves me cold after the GK review.

Nemesis being consolidated is a good thing. GK have been some of the most abused weapon sets in the game. The number of times people had to switch has been nuts.

Purifying flame is one per dude. You'll almost certainly be able to get DW on psychic shooting.

Your termies we definitely have a 4++ and will love shunting and not being targetable.

Dudeface wrote:
Don't forget Bobby G even stated that the codex was more of a set of guidelines than anything and doesn't enforce them stringently.

And then in the same breath said "But Oaths of Moment? Yeah you should all be doing that all the time. I mean, that's kind of what Space Marines are all about!"

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Nemesis being consolidated is a good thing.

You have an unusual definition of the word 'good'. I mean, not even "Twin-Linked" on a pair of Nemesis Scimitars?

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Nemesis being consolidated is a good thing. GK have been some of the most abused weapon sets in the game. The number of times people had to switch has been nuts.

Purifying flame is one per dude. You'll almost certainly be able to get DW on psychic shooting.

Your termies we definitely have a 4++ and will love shunting and not being targetable.

I don't know str 6 in melee , no hammers seems really bad in a world with custodes terminators with t7, and vehicles with t8+. Especialy as the rest of the weapons are str 4 ap0 or ap 1. P Flame even if cast by strikes or interceptors will still be max 10 extra stormbolters shots at 18" range. It will not scale well for terminators or paladins, and I don't think GK need more str 4 shots. Even my terminator lists didn't need it. Well I hope that terminators get something too. But for two editions I have see them cost twice the points for half the efficiency of a strike. If they get +4 inv, I won't be sad about it for sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Nemesis being consolidated is a good thing.

You have an unusual definition of the word 'good'. I mean, not even "Twin-Linked" on a pair of Nemesis Scimitars?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Space Wolves are famous for not following the Codex Astartes and they are not alone in the annuals of the Adeptus Astartes.

How is this relevant? Space Wolves are getting their own book

And they shouldn't

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Space Wolves are famous for not following the Codex Astartes and they are not alone in the annuals of the Adeptus Astartes.

How is this relevant? Space Wolves are getting their own book

And they shouldn't

They had one since 2ed. If they don't get one then non faction should.

Karol wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Space Wolves are famous for not following the Codex Astartes and they are not alone in the annuals of the Adeptus Astartes.

How is this relevant? Space Wolves are getting their own book

And they shouldn't

They had one since 2ed. If they don't get one then non faction should.

They were in fact the first ever Warhammer 40k codex. If that isnt a reason to keep it around for tradition sake I don't know what is.

Dai wrote:

Karol wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Space Wolves are famous for not following the Codex Astartes and they are not alone in the annuals of the Adeptus Astartes.

How is this relevant? Space Wolves are getting their own book

And they shouldn't

They had one since 2ed. If they don't get one then non faction should.

They were in fact the first ever Warhammer 40k codex. If that isnt a reason to keep it around for tradition sake I don't know what is.

I've decades of memories now of the various marines complaining at each other because they haven't got new generic tank A or weapon B is better in the new codex and they have to wait their turn.

Which is why they did supplements.

But I guess they've decided not to iterate there either...