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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Isn't that exactly what I just did?

Your arguments are based on these armies having full Codexes but there's no evidence to suggest that. You're just flat-out making stuff up to suit your point.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Hahaha the Deathwing Apothecary comes with a chainfist.

Yeah I saw that too. Someone clearly forgot that was a Narthecium.

 Gert wrote:
Your arguments are based on these armies having full Codexes but there's no evidence to suggest that. You're just flat-out making stuff up to suit your point.

The Dark Angel Codex is literally listed among the first releases. Did you not see that?

No, I didn't because I'm not keeping up on all this, hence why I asked the question in the first place.

 vipoid wrote:


Perhaps you've forgotten the original concern?

No, hence my use of the phrase 'Every cloud has a silver lining.'

If all I can do with Blasters is kill Marines (which was generally what I was doing with them back in 3rd Edition because of lousy Splinter Rifles) then at least I will take some grim satisfaction in blowing straight through their silly Marine armour. /shrug.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Hahaha the Deathwing Apothecary comes with a chainfist.

Yeah I saw that too. Someone clearly forgot that was a Narthecium.

 Gert wrote:
Your arguments are based on these armies having full Codexes but there's no evidence to suggest that. You're just flat-out making stuff up to suit your point.

The Dark Angel Codex is literally listed among the first releases. Did you not see that?

Always great to have subfactions have codexes before entire races.....

 Mr Morden wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Hahaha the Deathwing Apothecary comes with a chainfist.

Yeah I saw that too. Someone clearly forgot that was a Narthecium.

 Gert wrote:
Your arguments are based on these armies having full Codexes but there's no evidence to suggest that. You're just flat-out making stuff up to suit your point.

The Dark Angel Codex is literally listed among the first releases. Did you not see that?

Always great to have subfactions have codexes before entire races.....

Probably better to spread them out over the edition, rather than have a six month block where people bleat about "Nothing but Marines!11!2!"

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Hahaha the Deathwing Apothecary comes with a chainfist.

The narthecium is now an anti-tank weapon.

Clown edition.

Narthecium comes with a chainblade, soooo.....

 Dysartes wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Hahaha the Deathwing Apothecary comes with a chainfist.

Yeah I saw that too. Someone clearly forgot that was a Narthecium.

 Gert wrote:
Your arguments are based on these armies having full Codexes but there's no evidence to suggest that. You're just flat-out making stuff up to suit your point.

The Dark Angel Codex is literally listed among the first releases. Did you not see that?

Always great to have subfactions have codexes before entire races.....

Probably better to spread them out over the edition, rather than have a six month block where people bleat about "Nothing but Marines!11!2!"

IF they were actually doing what they say and just adding lore and a few detachments in the "Codex" then you could just have a book highlighting the non-Codex Chapters but we all know they will need new rules for the flanderised units and even more new [[Insert - Wolf/Blood/Dark]] units.

dominuschao wrote:

Using the highest possible concentration of dark lances 4 scourges standing still vs t9 3+ is 4*4*4*5/216 = 1.48 wounds or average 7.18 wounds on a rhino without invuln/fnp. 5.88 if moving. And this is trading down in points.

A few errors there. Sv3+ vs ap-3 saves on 6s, and the average of D6+2 is 5.5. So it would actually be 4*4*5*5.5/216 = 2.037 wounds per Dark Lance

And this is trading down in points.

Assuming current points, it is 120 points stripping away 81.48% of an 80pts model, so 65.18 points in damage.

That's 54.32% return in a single shooting (61.111% if using PT). To be honest I don't see what is weak about that, units shouldn't be making their own points back in damage in one single round of shooting.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Hahaha the Deathwing Apothecary comes with a chainfist.

The narthecium is now an anti-tank weapon.

Clown edition.

Narthecium comes with a chainblade, soooo.....

Fingers crossed for my AM medics getting chainfists too!

 AtoMaki wrote:

Fingers crossed for my AM medics getting chainfists too!

Not sure if you're trying to be clever or not, but I'm pretty sure a medi-pack isn't the same as a powerfist with a bunch of stuff attached.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Fingers crossed for my AM medics getting chainfists too!

Not sure if you're trying to be clever or not, but I'm pretty sure a medi-pack isn't the same as a powerfist with a bunch of stuff attached.

Not sure if you're trying to be clever or not, but a narthecium isn't even a powerfist with stuff attached.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Fingers crossed for my AM medics getting chainfists too!

Not sure if you're trying to be clever or not, but I'm pretty sure a medi-pack isn't the same as a powerfist with a bunch of stuff attached.

The DW Apothecary doesn't have a power fist, only the same small chainsaw-thingie on the Nathericum as the DKoK Medic. If it will be just WS4+ S6 then I'm fine with it but I would unironically like that in my DKoK squads.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Voss wrote:
Because they've been turned into distinct model lines, like it or not.

So... the Loyalist Chapters have tons of their own models. What???

TS/DG/WE don't get

Discolord
Dark commune
Dark apostle
Warpsmith
Legionnaires
Accursed cultists
Chosen
Possessed/Master of executions (depending on the book)
Bikers
Raptors
Warp talons
Venomcrawlers

DA/SW get all the generic marine units
BT too but with no psyker
DW are just their own entity and i fully believe they would work better if they were as detached from the loyalist codex as grey knights are

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Fingers crossed for my AM medics getting chainfists too!

Not sure if you're trying to be clever or not, but I'm pretty sure a medi-pack isn't the same as a powerfist with a bunch of stuff attached.

Not sure if you're trying to be clever or not, but a narthecium isn't even a powerfist with stuff attached.

I stand corrected

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Fingers crossed for my AM medics getting chainfists too!

Not sure if you're trying to be clever or not, but I'm pretty sure a medi-pack isn't the same as a powerfist with a bunch of stuff attached.

Not sure if you're trying to be clever or not, but a narthecium isn't even a powerfist with stuff attached.

yeah but

The chainblades and drills fitted into Nartheciums allow the Apothecary to crack open even Terminator Armour to reach a fallen brother's progenoid glands.

if it can crack terminator armor, it can crack tank armor

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

if it can crack terminator armor, it can crack tank armor

This sounds like Famous Last Words material .

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Hahaha the Deathwing Apothecary comes with a chainfist.

The narthecium is now an anti-tank weapon.

I assumed you needed something like a chain fist to carve off a section of armor and get to them with the narthecium, no? So maybe the narthecium is just a special rule and the chain fist is the fluffy weapon someone operating on terminators would need to use the narthecium?

Disorganized thoughts:
* While I don't love all of these detachment abilities, I think they're about the right level of complexity. Neat gimmicks that change up how your army feels.
* The more context we have, the more I think I'm going to hate Oaths of Moment. Army-wide Guide/Doom for marines each turn (against one target) seems way stronger than pretty much any of the other army-wide rules?

* Grim Resolve seems pretty bad? It's a neat, fluffy rule, but you're giving up the flexibility of falling back and charging, advancing and charging, or advancing and shooting for it.
* Feels like Deathwing Terminators could just be generic terminators. Does anyone see anything here that demands its own datasheet?
* El'Johnson. I've already forgotten Roboute's stats, but I guess primarchs will only be hurt by bolters on a 6+ and blasters on a 5+. And I guess blasters become a 6+ thanks to his shield. Feels weird. True to fluff, but weird. Not a fan of his more betterer rules. Feels weird that he can inspire people to hit better, but only in melee. His pistol makes the combi-weapon changes feel even weirder.

* I think I like the Sagas. Gives you a reason to lean into characters pulling off impressive deeds, then gives your army a significant-but-not-absurd bonus afterwards.
* Hounds of Morkai could have been an optional squad ability that you pay points for available to all Reivers rather than its own datasheet. I like that attaching an appropriate character improves the ability.
* Red Thirst being +1S is a little quirky. It will help against T4, T5, T8, and T9, but it doesn't help against against T3 or T6/T7. So like, it makes you better at punching other space marines, and sufficiently durable vehicles, but it doesn't help you punch guardsmen or venoms/sentinels. (Sentinels are T6 or 7, right?) I feel like they wanted this to be +1 to-wound but didn't want it to work against land raiders. Which is fair, but this is a weird way to accomplish that.
* I like the black rage special rules quite a bit. It's a kill better rule, but it comes at the cost of tactical flexibility and prevents you from playing the objectives game as well. If we're going to do kill better rules, they're way more interesting when they have downsides like this.
* Seth's Whirlwind of Gore mechanic is an interesting take on the "more enemies = more attacks" thing. The expanded range means you don't get screwed by base sizes as easily, but it also means that some enemies standing in the generaly vicinity but not in melee can buff you against units that *are* in melee.

* Templar Vows: Apparently vows are a thing you have to decide before a fight starts, but oaths are a thing you can make time for mid-battle. :p This one feels relatively boring to me. It's basically just choosing a chapter tactic at the start of the game so you can tailor your rules to your opponent a little. This feels like the safer, less fluffy, more boring version of Sagas. I'm wondering if Abhor the Witch is meant to let tac marines wound Great Unclean Ones and Hive Tyrants on a 4+ like that. Seems like an oversight, but maybe not.
* Don't like sword brethren. They seem like a very generic marine melee unit with two special rule options for killing more betterer. Isn't the whole gimmick of these guys supposed to be that they mix non-sneaky scouts with more experienced power armor guys? What are they going for here? Do BT players like this?

* DW Mission Tactics: These could probably be improved, but I think I like this version better than what we have now.
* Anti-xenos kill more betterer rule makes sense given that they're the anti-xenos faction, but it's still sort of bland.

Overall, if this is what we can expect from detachments for other factions, I think we're going to have some winners and losers, but I like the general shape of what GW seems to be going for.

* Feels like Deathwing Terminators could just be generic terminators. Does anyone see anything here that demands its own datasheet?

Lots, but this is the command squad, not the terminator squad. Hence the apothecary and the champion with halberd.

Traditionally, though, Deathwing terminators can mix and match the ranged and melee roles of the terminator squad and the assault terminator squad. And, of course, plasma cannons.

Voss wrote:

* Feels like Deathwing Terminators could just be generic terminators. Does anyone see anything here that demands its own datasheet?

Lots, but this is the command squad, not the terminator squad.

Traditionally, though, Deathwing terminators can mix and match the ranged and melee roles of the terminator squad and the assault terminator squad.

See, I feel like that should just be true of all terminators. We see enough other chapters do this in codices, and it seems like it's probably a pretty common deviation in the lore. I say let players have more flexibility and get rid of an extra datasheet.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Voss wrote:

* Feels like Deathwing Terminators could just be generic terminators. Does anyone see anything here that demands its own datasheet?

Lots, but this is the command squad, not the terminator squad.

Traditionally, though, Deathwing terminators can mix and match the ranged and melee roles of the terminator squad and the assault terminator squad.

See, I feel like that should just be true of all terminators. We see enough other chapters do this in codices, and it seems like it's probably a pretty common deviation in the lore. I say let players have more flexibility and get rid of an extra datasheet.

Sure...? But you were asking for differences between this and the generic terminators, not 'how it should be'

Voss wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Voss wrote:

* Feels like Deathwing Terminators could just be generic terminators. Does anyone see anything here that demands its own datasheet?

Lots, but this is the command squad, not the terminator squad.

Traditionally, though, Deathwing terminators can mix and match the ranged and melee roles of the terminator squad and the assault terminator squad.

See, I feel like that should just be true of all terminators. We see enough other chapters do this in codices, and it seems like it's probably a pretty common deviation in the lore. I say let players have more flexibility and get rid of an extra datasheet.

Sure...? But you were asking for differences between this and the generic terminators, not 'how it should be'

Fair.

 Tyran wrote:

dominuschao wrote:

Using the highest possible concentration of dark lances 4 scourges standing still vs t9 3+ is 4*4*4*5/216 = 1.48 wounds or average 7.18 wounds on a rhino without invuln/fnp. 5.88 if moving. And this is trading down in points.

A few errors there. Sv3+ vs ap-3 saves on 6s, and the average of D6+2 is 5.5. So it would actually be 4*4*5*5.5/216 = 2.037 wounds per Dark Lance

And this is trading down in points.

Assuming current points, it is 120 points stripping away 81.48% of an 80pts model, so 65.18 points in damage.

That's 54.32% return in a single shooting (61.111% if using PT). To be honest I don't see what is weak about that, units shouldn't be making their own points back in damage in one single round of shooting.

Ah yes I just added the +2 instead of multiplying. So 8.14 wounds.

Agreed on making points back. But that is an optimal situation for scourges camped without getting smoked first against one transport.
I feel it is bad because of the commitment required. In 9th mech is considered middling and still shows up in decent quantity. And DE do struggle against it. In a mech edition the need for AT will completely dictate list design. Plus DE units are not equally durable so exchanges are not equal. Removing 5 t3 scourge wounds is trivial for most weapons in the game including the rhino + firing deck contents.

I personally enjoyed the old playstyle but since the games evolution I do not believe what they are trying to do will turn out well for DE.

For example 5 storm bolters does comparable damage to a venom vs 4 blasters to a rhino. That is just bizarre. Blasters as a staple becoming worse without another choice to fill the gap is something very easy for DE players to measure the loss of and restricts list design.
Changes to poison becoming only anti infantry is also really poor timing with what we know of mech in 10th.
Another better known example is units such as tau big suits or NDK changing to vehicle status. This one keyword change really put the crimp on DE builds to handle those things outside of combat particularly with invuln drones.

Depending on unit restrictions, I can see lots of Counts as Deathwatch Marine flavor armies coming.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Depending on unit restrictions, I can see lots of Counts as Deathwatch Marine flavor armies coming.

Go to the tumour thread and enjoy the whining of how they lost options.

I'm not even upset with the typo.

dominuschao wrote:
For example 5 storm bolters does comparable damage to a venom vs 4 blasters to a rhino. That is just bizarre. Blasters as a staple becoming worse without another choice to fill the gap is something very easy for DE players to measure the loss of and restricts list design.

??

5 SB at short do 0.7 to a Rhino and 2.2 to a Venom

4 Blasters do 4 to a Rhino and 6.7 to a Venom.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
To everyone who is quoting me, I'm more upset that every marine player has six detachments to choose from at launch, while every other faction gets one.

No we don't. Most people don't just pretend their army is a different Chapter. I'm not about to say that my Ultramarines are actually Space Wolves or Black Templars. My Deathwatch army isn't going to suddenly decide "On Wednesdays we wear dark green!". That's not how it works.

Why they decided to take the lazy route and make armies into detachments despite the fact that these Chapters are getting full books is anyone's guess, but don't act like Marine players suddenly have any more choice than they've had before or would have had if these had been faction rules rather than detachment rules.

Look HBMC, I respect you, and I've always done my best to polite with you. We also actually tend to agree more often than we disagree on.

But the last two times you replied directly to me, you've done it with this heavy handed "Don't pretend...", "Don't act like..." attitude, and I don't think I've been rude enough to you to deserve it.

If you had said "While marine players CAN choose from six different detachments, the vast majority of players will probably choose to use only the detachment that best suits their subfaction because it will suit their preferred play style," that's something we could have agreed on, because you are right, there are likely very few people who want to field Blood Angels in a Sons of Sanguinus detachment.

The point of my OP is this:

At launch, if you play Loyalist Marines, there are six detachments you could choose from. If you play any other faction, there is one.

This is objectively and observably true. No one is pretending anything, or acting like anything. This is objective reality.

Whether or not anyone will actually do it is another issue. I don't care how many people do or do not. My point is that Loyalist Players, and Loyalist Players alone have the option.

So to turn it back on you, don't pretend that SM players don't have this option, because they do, and there is no way for you to "win" that argument.

 ProfSrlojohn wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/01/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-space-marine-chapters/

Christ those Deathwatch Rules. You get three doctrines, one per turn once each, and that wargear is disgusting. They combined the: Shotgun, stalker Bolter, all 4 combi-weapons, all 4 special weapons, storm bolter, and all 5 pistols into one statline, they combined all 4 power weapons, lightning claw, chainsword, and either the regular or heavy thunder hammer into one weapon as well. No more heavy weapons besides the frag cannon and Infurnus bolter, no blackshields, and no combat shield. Christ alive.

We have not seen the back of the datasheet, so we do not know what was consolidated and what might be on a war gear index card that we know exists.

Still, doesn’t look positive. I see that the dreaded Combi-Weapon is not Terminators only.

PenitentJake wrote:
So to turn it back on you, don't pretend that SM players don't have this option, because they do

As per the rules we have seen so far, they don't. Detachments are locked to a Faction Keyword and so are the units you can take in your army. So if you go with the Dark Angels Detachment then you can't take any of the basic SM stuff (like Intercessors) because they don't have the Dark Angels Faction Keyword (only Adeptus Asterates). But you must take Dark Angels as your Faction Keyword to be able to take the Dark Angels Detachment. GW will probably fix this with some kind of additional rule but... y'know, personally, I wouldn't bet money on it.

Yeah, how are we feeling about all these weapon consolidations in general? You've got combi-weapon weirdness, "inquisitorial melee weapons", "sybarite weapons", and probably a lot of other examples I've been too inattentive to notice.

Do we think this is an index thing? An attempt to reduce the focus on minutia for the sake of supporting a larger game?

Edit: Or is it just that they've tied the specifics of the weapons to individual datasheets, and they don't want to have to list a bunch of different options for my sybarites?