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 Jidmah wrote:


Same. Motivated > Skilled. A motivated developer will eventually become skilled more often than not.

Yeah, but potentialy in 4-5 projects down the line, by which time your company can be dead by then. If people get paid, they work. There is a milion and one projects that were started by enthusiastic people, but never got finished. The thing with GW, or any other publisher doing hobby related stuff, is that they would like to pay people as if they were a small indy developer in the 80s. Even if they are WoTC or GW right now.

 Jidmah wrote:
A motivated developer will eventually become skilled more often than not.

I guess no one's figured out how to motivate Cruddace then.

Karol wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


Same. Motivated > Skilled. A motivated developer will eventually become skilled more often than not.

Yeah, but potentialy in 4-5 projects down the line, by which time your company can be dead by then. If people get paid, they work. There is a milion and one projects that were started by enthusiastic people, but never got finished. The thing with GW, or any other publisher doing hobby related stuff, is that they would like to pay people as if they were a small indy developer in the 80s. Even if they are WoTC or GW right now.

Money is just one type of motivation. Companies like WotC or GW (or any gaming company, really) get away with paying less (and driving people to work more) because people are willing to work for their hobby despite that, because being able work on a cool product you enjoy is much more fulfilling than working on things you don't care about just to get money. Both EA games and Ubisoft have offices in my general area and both pay significantly less money and offer significantly less benefits than my employers did, yet they never seem to have trouble to fill their openings while pretty much everyone else is.

Of course, you can't do completely without skill, but a single skilled and motivated dev is usually sufficient to turn a team of five or six motivated people into a great and productive team.
Six skilled and unmotivated people will deliver something like 9th edition's app. It works exactly as written in the specification, with no thought wasted on whether those specs made sense.

In general, you earn much more money if you create software for industry appliances, insurance companies, power plants or large discounters, but you are a lot less likely to go the extra mile for a system that monitors a blast furnace than you would if you were building the army builder for the very game you are going to play twice a week.

However, I feel like this is going waaaay off topic now, we should create a separate thread for this if people are really interested in discussing this.

I looked at the Tyranid data cards. Is the neurothrope gone?

 Niiai wrote:
I looked at the Tyranid data cards. Is the neurothrope gone?

He's a squad leader now.

 Niiai wrote:
I looked at the Tyranid data cards. Is the neurothrope gone?

No, it is now a Seargant for Zoanthropes under their entry.

 Hellebore wrote:
Assuming they haven't borked it, I expect them to cost a lot more.

Fragile profiles with marine points costs, offset by them being very good at doing their jobs.

This. It would be interesting, different, and very fluff-appropriate to have Eldar be a faction that on paper looks weak but can punch way above its weight via shenanigans.

Maybe they will be broken, but it's silly to already treat it like a sure thing.

 Niiai wrote:
I looked at the Tyranid data cards. Is the neurothrope gone?

There's a lot of people sad about this but I honestly don't get why? The neurothrope to me seemed like a made up unnecessary extra HQ for no reason, the neurotyrant better fills the role than a zoanthrope with a doodad on its head.

It was nice to have a lower small non-monster level HQ choice that was a psyker but not strictly another HTH beast.

Ha ha! All you chumps who didn't build the optional Neurothrope or Prime have to go out and buy more models now. That'll learn ya.




...that's my Tyranids screwed them

It looks like you can overwatch to place mines with Biovores? Also seems like fun to plunk mines out of sight via Rapid Ingress, but they'll need a decent advance roll to make an impact.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
It looks like you can overwatch to place mines with Biovores? Also seems like fun to plunk mines out of sight via Rapid Ingress, but they'll need a decent advance roll to make an impact.

They will probably errata Biovore overwatching away. It happened in 8th too, I don't think GW likes the idea of that.

 catbarf wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
Assuming they haven't borked it, I expect them to cost a lot more.

Fragile profiles with marine points costs, offset by them being very good at doing their jobs.

This. It would be interesting, different, and very fluff-appropriate to have Eldar be a faction that on paper looks weak but can punch way above its weight via shenanigans.

Maybe they will be broken, but it's silly to already treat it like a sure thing.

Yes, because Eldar were totally not broken in most editions of the game and there's no pattern whatsoever.

Do to them what we did to the Votaan, I say.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
finding motivated developers.

Motivated =/= Skilled

I'll take motivated over skilled. I've had programmers that were incredibly skilled, but couldn't take direction at all.

Same. Motivated > Skilled. A motivated developer will eventually become skilled more often than not.

Y'all say that until you're behind on several projects. No amount of "passion" and "willing to go beyond expectations" matters when you can't really meet expectations to begin with.
Source: worked in tech for a period of time

That's what a good manager is for -- weekly code reviews, collabs, scheduling personal development time, etc.

Getting that all to come together takes a ton of effort.

Amazon has tons of skilled workers and they get productivity by paying people a gak ton of money, but the environment is so toxic that programmers are incentivized to cut each other down.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
Assuming they haven't borked it, I expect them to cost a lot more.

Fragile profiles with marine points costs, offset by them being very good at doing their jobs.

This. It would be interesting, different, and very fluff-appropriate to have Eldar be a faction that on paper looks weak but can punch way above its weight via shenanigans.

Maybe they will be broken, but it's silly to already treat it like a sure thing.

Yes, because Eldar were totally not broken in most editions of the game and there's no pattern whatsoever.

Do to them what we did to the Votaan, I say.

What have a self entitled organised moan online and ban rules that aren't publicly available? If so, mission accomplished

It still seems a bit weird to cry before some dice are properly rolled in anger - but I do think Eldar are going to be busted. Fate Dice plus a guaranteed reroll to hit and wound is a crazy level of reliability compared to everything else in the game.

I think people are sort of... exaggerating the D-Cannon combo. It probably is broken - but points could limit it. There are also likely going to be plenty of "good" armies which can go "oh you have some D-Cannons, okay I'll just go kill them".

Its kind of like how Votann generated a lot of heat over the railgun combo. Which I agree was obviously broken and not remotely thought though. But that wasn't the "core problem" - which was that almost every Votann unit was 25%-50% undercosted vs the meta that existed. We knew what a 22 point unit looks like - and it looked nothing like a Cthonian Beserk (now up to 33 points). Hekatons for 230 (now 310) etc.

Eldar are certainly riding the line. A simple one fate die per phase per unit would probably suffice.

Even still the Eldar player should only have two sixes on average. To turn an additional 6 they need a Farseer. And that Farseer needs a bodyguard. Eldrad being a completely separate entity who ALSO needs a bodyguard. So 600+ points to fuel a unit with 24" range and 3" movement.

I imagine we'll see 6s reserved for the proc and then lower die results used for the damage.

Carnifexes were dropped to 1-2 models so we could easily see the same thing with Support Weapons. Two D-Cannons average 12 damage to a knight. With this setup if you have four shots then you get 3.5 hits. You two turn of those into MW and spend 5s on the damage roll ( turn one with the Farseer and use a 6 from the pool ). The other 1.5 hits turns into 5 damage. So that's 19 damage to a knight - probably enough to reliably kill for 450 to 500 extra points.

EDIT: Sorry 2 D-Cannons do more than 12 to a knight on average since I didn't bother to math the possible DW proc without Fate dice. Assume 6 shots that all hit -- 5.5 MW + 16.3 so 2/3 of that would be ~14 to 15.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
Assuming they haven't borked it, I expect them to cost a lot more.

Fragile profiles with marine points costs, offset by them being very good at doing their jobs.

This. It would be interesting, different, and very fluff-appropriate to have Eldar be a faction that on paper looks weak but can punch way above its weight via shenanigans.

Maybe they will be broken, but it's silly to already treat it like a sure thing.

Yes, because Eldar were totally not broken in most editions of the game and there's no pattern whatsoever.

Do to them what we did to the Votaan, I say.

GW should (politely) tell you types to STFU.

ccs wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
Assuming they haven't borked it, I expect them to cost a lot more.

Fragile profiles with marine points costs, offset by them being very good at doing their jobs.

This. It would be interesting, different, and very fluff-appropriate to have Eldar be a faction that on paper looks weak but can punch way above its weight via shenanigans.

Maybe they will be broken, but it's silly to already treat it like a sure thing.

Yes, because Eldar were totally not broken in most editions of the game and there's no pattern whatsoever.

Do to them what we did to the Votaan, I say.

GW should (politely) tell you types to STFU.

Honestly, I think the more appropriate thing is to ask 'We?'

The trygon - has it lost transport options? It has had units with it since 4th edition I believe?

Voss wrote:

ccs wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
Assuming they haven't borked it, I expect them to cost a lot more.

Fragile profiles with marine points costs, offset by them being very good at doing their jobs.

This. It would be interesting, different, and very fluff-appropriate to have Eldar be a faction that on paper looks weak but can punch way above its weight via shenanigans.

Maybe they will be broken, but it's silly to already treat it like a sure thing.

Yes, because Eldar were totally not broken in most editions of the game and there's no pattern whatsoever.

Do to them what we did to the Votaan, I say.

GW should (politely) tell you types to STFU.

Honestly, I think the more appropriate thing is to ask 'We?'

Yeah it's a "we" because it wasn't just one person getting them banned at tournaments. Y'all can try your virtue signaling of casualism, but what we the consumers did to GW instead of laying back and accepted that crap release for Votaan was a good thing.

But no, please feel free to keep consooming because you're afraid negativity = no new models to buy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:
Assuming they haven't borked it, I expect them to cost a lot more.

Fragile profiles with marine points costs, offset by them being very good at doing their jobs.

This. It would be interesting, different, and very fluff-appropriate to have Eldar be a faction that on paper looks weak but can punch way above its weight via shenanigans.

Maybe they will be broken, but it's silly to already treat it like a sure thing.

Yes, because Eldar were totally not broken in most editions of the game and there's no pattern whatsoever.

Do to them what we did to the Votaan, I say.

What have a self entitled organised moan online and ban rules that aren't publicly available? If so, mission accomplished

Did you need the codex to be physically released to declare a problem when we had all the info to begin with?

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Did you need the codex to be physically released to declare a problem when we had all the info to begin with?

Do you have all of the 10th info?

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Voss wrote:


Honestly, I think the more appropriate thing is to ask 'We?'

Yeah it's a "we" because it wasn't just one person getting them banned at tournaments. Y'all can try your virtue signaling of casualism, but what we the consumers did to GW instead of laying back and accepted that crap release for Votaan was a good thing.

But no, please feel free to keep consooming because you're afraid negativity = no new models to buy.

English, please. And coherent if you can manage it.


I'm not particularly afraid of anything in this context. Certainly not of a lack of models because someone on the internet is inexplicably aiming for personal credit for GW's rules decisions.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Eldar are certainly riding the line. A simple one fate die per phase per unit would probably suffice.

Even still the Eldar player should only have two sixes on average. To turn an additional 6 they need a Farseer. And that Farseer needs a bodyguard. Eldrad being a completely separate entity who ALSO needs a bodyguard. So 600+ points to fuel a unit with 24" range and 3" movement.

I'm seeing this argument, but why do you "need" all this stuff? I mean I can understand why (points depending) you'd want Eldrad and a Farseer in the list. But that would probably be for the wider game benefit than just babysitting some D-Cannons all game. So the argument of "its 600 points" doesn't really wash.

I feel the functionality of guaranteed mortal wounds is less cracking knights and more deleting elite infantry. You can always fish for 6s anyway (with the detachment reroll) - but if you need it, you have it.

The whole issue is Eldar are going to be fast and reliable. This means you can gamble - and usually win.

Why DG are being considered bottom tier is the view (mainly driven by Terminators+Plague Marines) is that they'll be slow and not especially reliable. So you can't gamble as hard. If stuff gets stuck out of position, you are likely hoping on very long range charges and that's it. A DG list which is PBCs, MBHs, FBDs and maybe Mortarion might get around this. But if those units are inefficient for the points, the whole roster won't have legs.

Dudeface wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Did you need the codex to be physically released to declare a problem when we had all the info to begin with?

Do you have all of the 10th info?

I think points are perhaps the only real remaining piece for the 'D-Cannon problem'. We should have all the necessary rules details.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Ha ha! All you chumps who didn't build the optional Neurothrope or Prime have to go out and buy more models now. That'll learn ya.




...that's my Tyranids screwed them

Why? Paint a bonesword a different color, boom, Prime.

No non-Tyranid player will ever be able to tell.

Ton of the missions require to switch places. I would like to see the DG player try to do the burn objectives mission or try to counter respawn points of GSC.

I mean it could be demons, a lot of tanks and stuff like Mort or DPs. But this will probably end up with a DG army without actual DG in them.

Something like tyranids on the other hand is not just good rules. The tyranid player may actualy want to play with his army, and not just few specific monsters. Guants, stealers etc all have their place. The only odd thing out seems to be the new flying warrior. But I assume it is because in the tyranid codex, GW is going to be adding new units, and there is going to be some sort of flying tyranid warriors unit, and he won't feel like a lone operative without lone operative.

The good thing is that there are a lot of index list that feel like that. At least to me. The DE, the ad mecha, the IG. Even the more narrative ones at least follow or try to follow the "faction fantasy". Sometimes it is not good like BAs trying to do melee in a non melee marine friendly edition, but eldar are just stupid. It is like someone sat down and decide to write rules that are a tier above everything else someone else could play, and then a second person came and added more stuff.

ERJAK wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Ha ha! All you chumps who didn't build the optional Neurothrope or Prime have to go out and buy more models now. That'll learn ya.




...that's my Tyranids screwed them

Why? Paint a bonesword a different color, boom, Prime.

No non-Tyranid player will ever be able to tell.

Unless I'm missing something, the Prime has the exact same stats and equipment, so there's no need to even differentiate it.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Did you need the codex to be physically released to declare a problem when we had all the info to begin with?

Do you have all of the 10th info?

I think points are perhaps the only real remaining piece for the 'D-Cannon problem'. We should have all the necessary rules details.

To understand how far off the "normal" power curve they are, we need to see all factions surely, as well as points? Never the less, this stupid knee-jerk banning still looks... stupid and knee-jerky.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Eldar are certainly riding the line. A simple one fate die per phase per unit would probably suffice.

Even still the Eldar player should only have two sixes on average. To turn an additional 6 they need a Farseer. And that Farseer needs a bodyguard. Eldrad being a completely separate entity who ALSO needs a bodyguard. So 600+ points to fuel a unit with 24" range and 3" movement.

I imagine we'll see 6s reserved for the proc and then lower die results used for the damage.

Carnifexes were dropped to 1-2 models so we could easily see the same thing with Support Weapons. Two D-Cannons average 12 damage to a knight. With this setup if you have four shots then you get 3.5 hits. You two turn of those into MW and spend 5s on the damage roll ( turn one with the Farseer and use a 6 from the pool ). The other 1.5 hits turns into 5 damage. So that's 19 damage to a knight - probably enough to reliably kill for 450 to 500 extra points.

EDIT: Sorry 2 D-Cannons do more than 12 to a knight on average since I didn't bother to math the possible DW proc without Fate dice. Assume 6 shots that all hit -- 5.5 MW + 16.3 so 2/3 of that would be ~14 to 15.

The thing about Strands of Fate is the fact that you get all 12 up front is pretty nuts. Also, you're only going to AVERAGE 2 6s per game before farseer, but you could absolutely spike 4-6 a couple games in a row and take an event because of it. With Sisters it's balanced out by them 1. Not starting the game with any and 2. Not knowing what the ones they DO get are until they see them. Sisters could have D weapons and MD just fine.

Whether it's too powerful or not is still up in the air, but giving an army Better Miracle Dice+High Damage+Devastating wounds all at once is certainly not FUN.

Those units, and the army as a whole, have to be balanced around the idea that you can just wipe any 12ish wound model off the board for free turn 1. That's doable, but why SHOULD you? Just...don't do that? Don't give a Infinte damage weapon with devastating wound the ability to guarantee sixes.

Even if the rest of the army is fair, that interaction certainly isn't.