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They've been previewing these things since start the delay, if they were coming after Q1 next year there's no way they would have continued to show them.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Watching GMG's review of the army lists, I notice that the rulebook includes rules for everything in the starter box + support batteries box + Leviathan/Deredeos....

Does that make us think the other stuff (Land Raiders, Spartans, Bikes, Jetbikes, etc) are still a long-ish way off, and in the near future we're only going to get what just released + support weapons and dreadnoughts?

(talking about Marines of course, the Auxilia might have other stuff, haven't watched that review)

Wait, not even fething Land Raiders on the core? Wow. I knew half the Sicaran variants weren't either, but wow.

For anyone not wanting to wait for a battlescribe version, I created a quick LI army builder sheet that calculates points and upgrade costs:
Just create a copy of the sheet and fill out the dropdown fields to enter your units (and the additional grey fields for SM)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15I9LgPuB7UIoMMMB-Xh-Yjt8JGrYua3qP-_rUy9HrKM/edit?usp=sharing

For Knights and Titans if you want to take more than one detachment of the same kind just overwrite the automatic points, didn't manage to do it better with the time I had

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
So basically £150 pounds minimum on top of the starter set to get a 3k army? And that’s assuming you want 2x Warhounds filling out the points.

So a rough guess on an army that doesn’t stretch the points to the limit is maybe £210 or £240 + £120 for the starter?

I dunno, that feels pretty expensive to me.

Yes and no. Firstly and most obvious, that total can quickly become less via non-GW stores. My extra LI boxes were £96 rather than £120.

This first wave of the game is also clearly targeted at those of us already bought into AT / AI collections. Anyone with existing aircraft can slot them into marine and SA armies, like my existing Thunderhawk providing transport ability, 150pts, and saving me from buying rhinos. Knights also fill up the support side very quickly, with a £27.50 Questoris banner that many already own providing over 500pts.

I don't think it's fair to assume LI will be incredibly expensive for everyone. In time we're almost certainly going to see discounted army boxes similar to the several ones released for AT, and that will be the route into LI for a lot of people without AT collections.

Then for the sake of argument let's say you got a starter box and picked SA as your main army. You have 1,100pts between the marines and warhounds to fill the 900pt support slot.

You can then:
1) Keep them all and have the option to swap between running some combination of two Warhounds / a small marine force / any existing knight and titan models you may already own
2) There will be plenty of people looking to swap box contents, especially SA for marines. Trading the marines for another SA box half gets you 600pts closer to the primary army goal, saving £60.
3) Sell the warhounds if you don't want them. Probably another £30-50 back, depending how many AT players want that new upgrade sprue.
4) Simply build up both armies to use as primary in time. Some players often do provide both sides for specialist games, and I expect with the option to swap support options flexibly between them this will be much cheaper than the equivalent of collecting two full size 40k armies.

A little dodgy of GW on the sprue angles for the infantry models, but I wasn't that jazzed with their design in the first place. I was planning on replacing them with other options once I had concrete scale examples anyway.

I was able to get a starter set and the cards without any hassle this morning - the rules and list building is really what I wanted to get my hands on.

I didn't want to buy lots of models without knowing how they'd fit into a list.

 Albertorius wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Watching GMG's review of the army lists, I notice that the rulebook includes rules for everything in the starter box + support batteries box + Leviathan/Deredeos....

Does that make us think the other stuff (Land Raiders, Spartans, Bikes, Jetbikes, etc) are still a long-ish way off, and in the near future we're only going to get what just released + support weapons and dreadnoughts?

(talking about Marines of course, the Auxilia might have other stuff, haven't watched that review)

Wait, not even fething Land Raiders on the core? Wow. I knew half the Sicaran variants weren't either, but wow.

Well, Land Raiders are hardly a core Space Marine unit. I don't know why you would expect them to be in the army list any more than Drop Pods. Also, the six big Underhive houses are Goliath and Escher.

What are you going to do? As long as people are happy to buy hacked up rules, GW is happy to sell hacked up rules.

 Geifer wrote:
Well, Land Raiders are hardly a core Space Marine unit. I don't know why you would expect them to be in the army list any more than Drop Pods. Also, the six big Underhive houses are Goliath and Escher.

What are you going to do? As long as people are happy to buy hacked up rules, GW is happy to sell hacked up rules.

That's the thing: I would totally expect them to be there as much as melon-fething drop pods, or all the fething six Necromunda houses.

As to what I'm going to do... well, not giving them money is what I'm going to do.

easy, why should GW put them in there when people are happy to buy 2 books instead of 1

you might expect them to be there, but you won't stop buying and playing if they are not

you spend more money, and GW sells more books, which means the game gets more support so more people buy and play
win-win

 Albertorius wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
Well, Land Raiders are hardly a core Space Marine unit. I don't know why you would expect them to be in the army list any more than Drop Pods. Also, the six big Underhive houses are Goliath and Escher.

What are you going to do? As long as people are happy to buy hacked up rules, GW is happy to sell hacked up rules.

That's the thing: I would totally expect them to be there as much as melon-fething drop pods, or all the fething six Necromunda houses.

As to what I'm going to do... well, not giving them money is what I'm going to do.

You can't, it's sold out.

 kodos wrote:
you might expect them to be there, but you won't stop buying and playing if they are not

Well, you say that, but I for one have gone back to Oldcromunda and don't play current 40k. I was willing to give this one a chance, but not if they're gonna piecemeal the gak out of it as they did with Newcromunda.

Maybe in five years, when they re-re-re-re-release the core book with actual complete rules and lists. Maybe.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
Well, Land Raiders are hardly a core Space Marine unit. I don't know why you would expect them to be in the army list any more than Drop Pods. Also, the six big Underhive houses are Goliath and Escher.

What are you going to do? As long as people are happy to buy hacked up rules, GW is happy to sell hacked up rules.

That's the thing: I would totally expect them to be there as much as melon-fething drop pods, or all the fething six Necromunda houses.

As to what I'm going to do... well, not giving them money is what I'm going to do.

My reactions from rumour, to reveal, to pre order.

Wow.

Interesting.

Maybe not? Maybe?


Land Raiders were an Iconic choice for Marines, ditto the pods. Not having them in the core rules is unsurprising though.

Seems obvious that the Kratos being newer for HH release was first on the whiteboard for production and that led to the editorial choices that followed?

I'm now in the wait and see camp if I can pick up LI later down the line.

Shame.

Vorian wrote:
You can't, it's sold out.

That was gonna happen regardless, because 1) it's Epic, or looks like it, 2) people are buying sight unseen and 3) They don't seem to be able to actually produce enough gak for their current market on their best day.

and people buy serval boxes just in case that it gets much more expensive after that
in addition having the core box multiple times is the only way to stay cheaper than 40k

 Albertorius wrote:

 kodos wrote:
you might expect them to be there, but you won't stop buying and playing if they are not

Well, you say that, but I for one have gone back to Oldcromunda and don't play current 40k. I was willing to give this one a chance, but not if they're gonna piecemeal the gak out of it as they did with Newcromunda.

Maybe in five years, when they re-re-re-re-release the core book with actual complete rules and lists. Maybe.

yeah, I have the feeling we will see the same done with TOW as well
simply because it works and is an easy way to get more money without doing more work

And I for one am unwilling to encourage them to keep doing it, so I'll read the rules when they get in the wild, and I'll keep using the stuff I already have or I want to print this week. And more xenos

 Albertorius wrote:

Vorian wrote:
You can't, it's sold out.

That was gonna happen regardless, because 1) it's Epic, or looks like it, 2) people are buying sight unseen and 3) They don't seem to be able to actually produce enough gak for their current market on their best day.

Exactly, which is why they will keep doing it.

It's obviously better for us if everything is in one place, but equally it's obviously not enough of an issue for people to stop buying stuff.

I am sure that helps in the first rush, not so sure that it helps with having a healthy game in the long run, but agreed.

 xttz wrote:

VAYASEN wrote:

Isnt there even a starter battle set up that lets you ignore the 30%, designed for the starter set forces? (or have I imaged that lol)

The WarCom site has a 'quick start' PDF mission download which lets you either split the box as marines vs versus guard with a Warhound on each side, or do a combined marine/SA detachment mirror match with two boxes (and one warhound on each side).

Personally I think a house rule to make both marines & SA count towards the 70% value is a sensible idea, at least in the short term. It lets people use the full starter box without being confined to very small games while waiting potentally months for future model releases.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Has anyone added up the cost of a typical army? Like, a legal one? Then compared it to typical armies in the other GW games?

The 30% cap on allies made the road to a cheap army, well, less cheap, because the starter set effectively comes with 3 different factions, when using it to construct a single legal army only about half of it can be used. So buying 2 starters gets you 2 small armies, not a single big one.

Compare that to the 30k starter, which has, what, 1500pts-ish in the starter set that can all go towards creating a single army?

But I've not added up the cost of a 2000pt or 3000pt army (even though GW said 3000pt, it seems like 2000pt might be the better level).

The starter box gives you approx 450pts of marines and 600pts of SA, plus two Warhounds at 330 each. That basically maxes out 900pts of support options, meaning you need approx 1500-1650pts for the primary army to finish off a full size 3k list.

Outside of further support units, the best point per money ratio will be from armoured units like Kratos, Leman Russ, and Malcadors. Each box will add 250-300pts to your list, so for a strictly legal army you're looking at minimum 5 more boxes of models. At the other end of the scale the worst return will be from rhinos & especially from drop pods.

Of course the other option is to just either house rule things as above while people build up their collections, or agree to play smaller games at maybe 2k pts.

is this the first starter box GW have ever done where the Marines don't have notably more points that the other side? indeed are considerably less?

2nd Ed had the cardboard Dreadnought for the Orks, which probably gave them more points.

 xttz wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
So basically £150 pounds minimum on top of the starter set to get a 3k army? And that’s assuming you want 2x Warhounds filling out the points.

So a rough guess on an army that doesn’t stretch the points to the limit is maybe £210 or £240 + £120 for the starter?

I dunno, that feels pretty expensive to me.

Yes and no. Firstly and most obvious, that total can quickly become less via non-GW stores. My extra LI boxes were £96 rather than £120.

This first wave of the game is also clearly targeted at those of us already bought into AT / AI collections. Anyone with existing aircraft can slot them into marine and SA armies, like my existing Thunderhawk providing transport ability, 150pts, and saving me from buying rhinos. Knights also fill up the support side very quickly, with a £27.50 Questoris banner that many already own providing over 500pts.

I don't think it's fair to assume LI will be incredibly expensive for everyone. In time we're almost certainly going to see discounted army boxes similar to the several ones released for AT, and that will be the route into LI for a lot of people without AT collections.

Then for the sake of argument let's say you got a starter box and picked SA as your main army. You have 1,100pts between the marines and warhounds to fill the 900pt support slot.

You can then:
1) Keep them all and have the option to swap between running some combination of two Warhounds / a small marine force / any existing knight and titan models you may already own
2) There will be plenty of people looking to swap box contents, especially SA for marines. Trading the marines for another SA box half gets you 600pts closer to the primary army goal, saving £60.
3) Sell the warhounds if you don't want them. Probably another £30-50 back, depending how many AT players want that new upgrade sprue.
4) Simply build up both armies to use as primary in time. Some players often do provide both sides for specialist games, and I expect with the option to swap support options flexibly between them this will be much cheaper than the equivalent of collecting two full size 40k armies.

Yes there's always discounters, but the baseline is the price GW charges. I can get random Mantic game or ASOIAF discounted too.

An existing AT army doesn't help much in filling out a force for minimal cost, because the starter contains 2 Warhounds that you can't field until 2200pts anyway, so filling out with existing AT models doesn't really make the game cheaper.

AI models do, because they're not allies. Still curious to see how many planes are actually worth taking.

I think the Warhounds are really what damages the value proposition of it all. It effectively means the box set is a 3 faction starter instead of a 2 faction starter. Even if you find someone to buy a 2nd box and swap their marines/SA, there's no point going buying a 3rd or 4th with them because you'll just end up with even more Warhounds that you can't field.

That's assuming you want Warhounds at all. So many people already have 2 or 4 Warhounds, or maybe want a different Titan/Knight ally option. I'm predicting ebay/trading groups will be awash with Warhounds shortly, lol.

I'm hoping in a future wave they release some sort of battleforce that focuses on 1 faction and gives better value... I guess the question is whether I wait in hope or pick up the starter now.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
2nd Ed had the cardboard Dreadnought for the Orks, which probably gave them more points.

ahhh that legend, and a totally legitimate GW miniature for events


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Those warhounds at least have additional weapon options (well I hope additional not instead of weapon options

I wonder how many waves of releases we'll see during the upcoming year? There is a lot of stuff coming:

Predator box
Sicaran box
Astartes support box
Astartes fast attack box
Drop pod box
Dreadnought drop pod box
Spartan Box
Land Raider box

Leman Russ Box
Malcador Box
Auxilia support box
Medusa/Basilisk box
Stormhammer box
Dracosan box

Plus whatever hasn't been revealed yet, potentially adding a dozen boxes or more.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Yes there's always discounters, but the baseline is the price GW charges. I can get random Mantic game or ASOIAF discounted too.

if the argument for "the game is not that expensive" is you can buy leftover 2nd hand no one wants or wait for stores doing sales, as well as "just use you existing collection" you know it actually is expensive

 Ohman wrote:
I wonder how many waves of releases we'll see during the upcoming year? There is a lot of stuff coming:

Spoiler:

Predator box
Sicaran box
Astartes support box
Astartes fast attack box
Drop pod box
Dreadnought drop pod box
Spartan Box
Land Raider box

Leman Russ Box
Malcador Box
Auxilia support box
Medusa/Basilisk box
Stormhammer box
Dracosan box

Plus whatever hasn't been revealed yet, potentially adding a dozen boxes or more.

Most Specialist Games got treated to a plastic release per quarter. The notable exception to that was Horus Heresy. I could see Legions Imperialis land somewhere in the middle with an expansion book every three to four months and half a dozen plastic kits for that wave.

That would have been my guess anyway if there hadn't been a delay. I could see GW wanting to catch up and release the next two model waves closer to each other, say the next one in January already.

if they have the first expansion done and printed it will be out soon simply to clear the space its taking, mid-late Jan makes sense

 Albertorius wrote:

 kodos wrote:
you might expect them to be there, but you won't stop buying and playing if they are not

Well, you say that, but I for one have gone back to Oldcromunda and don't play current 40k. I was willing to give this one a chance, but not if they're gonna piecemeal the gak out of it as they did with Newcromunda.

Maybe in five years, when they re-re-re-re-release the core book with actual complete rules and lists. Maybe.

Well as gw can't keep up with demand gw doesn't care if you won't buy it or not. They sell out what they physically can produce anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Albertorius wrote:
I am sure that helps in the first rush, not so sure that it helps with having a healthy game in the long run, but agreed.

Gw's track record disagrees.

So far nobody has outsmarted gw and so far we know none in dakkadakka provenly knows better than gw.

leopard wrote:
if they have the first expansion done and printed it will be out soon simply to clear the space its taking, mid-late Jan makes sense

There's still a fairly substantial wave required to release the remaining units from AT/AI and the core rulebook, such as predators and support boxes. Plus there's further terrain and two discount boxes confirmed.

I think Feb/March is more likely for the expansion book.

 xttz wrote:

leopard wrote:
if they have the first expansion done and printed it will be out soon simply to clear the space its taking, mid-late Jan makes sense

There's still a fairly substantial wave required to release the remaining units from AT/AI and the core rulebook, such as predators and support boxes. Plus there's further terrain and two discount boxes confirmed.

I think Feb/March is more likely for the expansion book.

you may well be correct, and well reasoned too.

have to wait and see but its not long either way

Eh, you have to maintain sales momentum in the wider hobby.

GW achieves this with Core Game, then expansion books and linked waves of models. Whether that’s a Codex, Battle Tome, House Of isn’t especially important. It’s the same overall, tried and tested, business model.

And….its worked out pretty well so far.

They also tend to include more than just unit rules. Across the games, we see background, scenarios, variant campaigns, different environments etc.

Heck, one could even argue 2nd Edition Space Marine was the granddaddy of this approach. You had your core boxed set, then boxed sets covering different armies released after, and Titan Legions as a sub-game/sequel/expansion.

Not only does this model allow GW time to design kits, but tying the rules to a new book provides the hype train and advertising.

And as I said? It’s worked pretty well so far.

 xttz wrote:

leopard wrote:
if they have the first expansion done and printed it will be out soon simply to clear the space its taking, mid-late Jan makes sense

There's still a fairly substantial wave required to release the remaining units from AT/AI and the core rulebook, such as predators and support boxes. Plus there's further terrain and two discount boxes confirmed.

I think Feb/March is more likely for the expansion book.

Two discount boxes? Care to elaborate?

I'm committed to starting LI already, but am not too keen on the starter box as I dont like the idea of having to deal with dumping SA & those Warhounds and the physical rulebook, since the secondhand markets will be flooded with them soon enough. If there was a more affordable way to just getting core Marine units at significant discounts, I'd be all over such a thing. I want to go with the digital books and 3rd party lasercut tokens, so don't really see anything in the box I couldn't live without. Aren't those Blast markers the same that ship with Age Of Darkness box? If they are, I already have one set still on sprue

 xttz wrote:

leopard wrote:
if they have the first expansion done and printed it will be out soon simply to clear the space its taking, mid-late Jan makes sense

There's still a fairly substantial wave required to release the remaining units from AT/AI and the core rulebook, such as predators and support boxes. Plus there's further terrain and two discount boxes confirmed.

I think Feb/March is more likely for the expansion book.

I wonder if they will do wave two right after Christmas, then wait till march/april for the next wave/expansion.

Old world is due out around January/February and the rumour is first wave is the box set/rulebook/basic starter forces, then the following month is 'Quality of life' stuff for the game, which I assume is books, measuring templates, movement trays, terrain etc.

Thats two big slots taken up for a specialist game as its is, not to mention a couple of weeks taken up with new AoS dawnbringer vol 4, new ghoul army etc. 40k/killteam/necromunda all have items due out over the next couple of months too.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tauist wrote:


Two discount boxes? Care to elaborate?

Titan battlegroup & knights bundle are both due out sometime soon.

I assumed we'd get them as part of the christmas bundles, but they are probably pushed out due to the late release.