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leopard wrote:
meanwhile the Whirlwinds and Vindicators I have cry

As long as you're working with a local group and not taking them to a tournament, I would imagine that most players would let you kludge together some rules for them. The trickiest part would be figuring out the points values, imo.


Edit: I'll add...

It's somewhat ironic. Those were some of the first vehicles released for Epic (after the obligatory Rhinos, Land Raiders, and Predators, obviously) back in the day. And there's no sign of them right now. But at the same time, I kind of understand. I suspect GW is prioritizing getting each of the armies with a distinctive feel. So Great Slaughter focuses more on fast attack stuff for the AA, while the SA get artillery and more tanks.

the very idea of trying to run Legions as a tournament game makes me want to hide under my desk and cry

FYI I have made cards for all the detachments using a spreadsheet and mail merge. They are very basic, but they work. Another guy on Reddit took my basic cards and really fancied them up some. I’ll post when my card set is updated with GS.

On the topic of mantic, I was really excited for it, but going 12mm scale does not feel epic. People have commented LI being 8 mm instead of 6 mm already made the board more crowded. Imagine how it will be at 12 mm. It is similar to why I did not choose Flames of War for my historical, 15 mm does not really feel that epic. (I want Bolt Action so I had 28 mm stuff for better modeling and some crazy cross games with 40K.

Bearing in mind that the Legions marine troops are almost 10mm (9.5 I think?) with terminators even larger - all of the infantry, tanks, titans are a fair bump up in scale from the original game.

I think Legions will look far more similar to the new Epic Warpath game in scale than it will to original Epic.

Well personally I think GW scaled AT18 and LI just right. I can't stop staring the little models and tanks, they are large enough to show immersive amount of detail, but still small enough as to give a meaningful scale difference. A 4x4' LI table equals a 16 x 16' 40K table, that's plenty for the size of games I am interested in..

 vadersson wrote:
On the topic of mantic, I was really excited for it, but going 12mm scale does not feel epic. People have commented LI being 8 mm instead of 6 mm already made the board more crowded. Imagine how it will be at 12 mm. It is similar to why I did not choose Flames of War for my historical, 15 mm does not really feel that epic.

the difference between 6,8,10mm is in that case just the number of models per base
EWP will have 4 10mm models per 25mm base were LI has 5 8mm models, while the size of the tanks is not fixed yet for EWP (currently they plan the vehicles a little smaller than they should be) but their standard size being in the line of super heavies from LI so not that far off regarding space needed on the table

For me, a more "epic" feeling would be with a single unit being a single base, the size/number of models does not really matter and neither of those games do that
yet EWP looks to handle the scale they are aiming for better by not trying to be large than what is practical

I dislike the newer scales

6mm, 15mm & 28mm (maybe 20mm as well) work because terrain is readily available in these scales to the point many will have it or know someone who has

new scales to try and flog a specific range of models while shutting out others is frankly starting to get silly

I'd have been very happy with Legions in actual 15mm as I have a stack of 15mm terrain for example, 6mm would have worked in the same way

I'm making new stuff for it, but yet another scale is annoying

leopard wrote:
I dislike the newer scales

6mm, 15mm & 28mm (maybe 20mm as well) work because terrain is readily available in these scales to the point many will have it or know someone who has

new scales to try and flog a specific range of models while shutting out others is frankly starting to get silly

I'd have been very happy with Legions in actual 15mm as I have a stack of 15mm terrain for example, 6mm would have worked in the same way

I'm making new stuff for it, but yet another scale is annoying

Which makes mantic so much weirder for using 6mm terrain with their new 12mm scale minis. It seems like they planned to be a 6mm game but couldn't get the infantry right, the vehicles also look more like 6mm though hard to tell with the lack of actual pics of the painted minis.

dunno whats so hard about 6mm infantry to be honest, plenty of games have 6mm infantry, and 6mm infantry that can be made visually distinctive as well

issue may be more manufacture than design though

they talked about it in a podcast that they had no specific scale in mind but just tried which model size had the right balance between details/size and would still be doable in plastic and settled for that which gave them a 10/11mm total size for regular humans

and for the terrain, the settled with an already existing small scale terrain line out there in addition to new plastic terrain to increase accessibility and variation

also 10mm or 1/144 terrain is commonly available and given that games like 40k change the terrain size/shape requirements every 3 years without people complaining that they need to make everything new again, generic small scale terrain works for various sizes (a forest, hill or commieblock will do it for any scale between 8-12mm)

same with different models, looking at what as currently available as 10mm infantry the size varies a lot between them

Is it known already how big the bases for the Jetbikes and Outriders are? Looks like 40mm, but could also be 32mm or even 38,7mm - it's GW after all...
I somehow liked the idea of having most, or all models on 25mm bases. While bikes don't need to enter building and such, I always liked the small epic bases, as it looked nice and, well "epic".

 kodos wrote:
they talked about it in a podcast that they had no specific scale in mind but just tried which model size had the right balance between details/size and would still be doable in plastic and settled for that which gave them a 10/11mm total size for regular humans

and for the terrain, the settled with an already existing small scale terrain line out there in addition to new plastic terrain to increase accessibility and variation

also 10mm or 1/144 terrain is commonly available and given that games like 40k change the terrain size/shape requirements every 3 years without people complaining that they need to make everything new again, generic small scale terrain works for various sizes (a forest, hill or commieblock will do it for any scale between 8-12mm)

same with different models, looking at what as currently available as 10mm infantry the size varies a lot between them

Having bought a 12mm scale wargame, pike and shotte epic, I hate the scale. Too detailed for me to cheat the painting Like I am for legions, small enough that it hurts my hand doing it. Is real annoying

leopard wrote:
dunno whats so hard about 6mm infantry to be honest, plenty of games have 6mm infantry, and 6mm infantry that can be made visually distinctive as well

issue may be more manufacture than design though

The TMG plastic 6mm infantry were not as good as their metal offerings. They orcs were in a very flat 'gorilla' pose and the humans were way too thin. I assume they never made more plastic sprues (for infantry) after this due to the issues making that sprue.

 RexHavoc wrote:

leopard wrote:
dunno whats so hard about 6mm infantry to be honest, plenty of games have 6mm infantry, and 6mm infantry that can be made visually distinctive as well

issue may be more manufacture than design though

The TMG plastic 6mm infantry were not as good as their metal offerings. They orcs were in a very flat 'gorilla' pose and the humans were way too thin. I assume they never made more plastic sprues (for infantry) after this due to the issues making that sprue.

maybe, the old Epic 1st edition plastics were fine though, in terms of what they were being recognisable, orks, eldar, marines, guard

simple poses to be sure, but effective

stratigo wrote:
Having bought a 12mm scale wargame, pike and shotte epic, I hate the scale. Too detailed for me to cheat the painting Like I am for legions, small enough that it hurts my hand doing it. Is real annoying

the Warlord Games Epic ECW models?
those are 15mm and yes it is annoying as the very first epic models from Warlord were smaller and on the larger 12mm side but the ECW ones are "true" 15mm models and also fit other 15mm metal models

Mantic has their super-humans said to be 12mm total size, so it will be a smaller than the Epic ones from WG

leopard wrote:

 RexHavoc wrote:

leopard wrote:
dunno whats so hard about 6mm infantry to be honest, plenty of games have 6mm infantry, and 6mm infantry that can be made visually distinctive as well

issue may be more manufacture than design though

The TMG plastic 6mm infantry were not as good as their metal offerings. They orcs were in a very flat 'gorilla' pose and the humans were way too thin. I assume they never made more plastic sprues (for infantry) after this due to the issues making that sprue.

maybe, the old Epic 1st edition plastics were fine though, in terms of what they were being recognisable, orks, eldar, marines, guard

simple poses to be sure, but effective

They were Ok for their times but look quite meh by today's standards IMHO. They were also more fragile than LI models AFAIR. The LI Astartes are quite sturdy in fact, aside from the Assault Marines with their one-handed weapons.. I got plenty of 1st edition Epic tac marines who were snapped off in two from the knees, heck, you had to be careful even plugging them onto the bases at times

was thinking more the ones from the boxed set than the 1st edition starter, the MkVII guys not the MkVI who could be fragile, don't remember having many break myself but saw a good few

point was they were perfectly functional though

 kodos wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Having bought a 12mm scale wargame, pike and shotte epic, I hate the scale. Too detailed for me to cheat the painting Like I am for legions, small enough that it hurts my hand doing it. Is real annoying

the Warlord Games Epic ECW models?
those are 15mm and yes it is annoying as the very first epic models from Warlord were smaller and on the larger 12mm side but the ECW ones are "true" 15mm models and also fit other 15mm metal models

Ew really? Their epic scale minis vary in size by period??

chaos0xomega wrote:

 kodos wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Having bought a 12mm scale wargame, pike and shotte epic, I hate the scale. Too detailed for me to cheat the painting Like I am for legions, small enough that it hurts my hand doing it. Is real annoying

the Warlord Games Epic ECW models?
those are 15mm and yes it is annoying as the very first epic models from Warlord were smaller and on the larger 12mm side but the ECW ones are "true" 15mm models and also fit other 15mm metal models

Ew really? Their epic scale minis vary in size by period??

I think it's just the ECW. I believe the ACW and Napoleonics are properly scaled against each other.


However, something to keep in mind is that the only difference between regular and Epic scale Black Powder is the size of the figures. The game is still exactly the same. Someone with Epic figures could play a game against someone with 25mm figures, and nothing would need to be changed.

I'm aware of that, though I don't bother with their rules, I use their minis w other games

chaos0xomega wrote:

 kodos wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Having bought a 12mm scale wargame, pike and shotte epic, I hate the scale. Too detailed for me to cheat the painting Like I am for legions, small enough that it hurts my hand doing it. Is real annoying

the Warlord Games Epic ECW models?
those are 15mm and yes it is annoying as the very first epic models from Warlord were smaller and on the larger 12mm side but the ECW ones are "true" 15mm models and also fit other 15mm metal models

Ew really? Their epic scale minis vary in size by period??

the ACW and Waterloo models are close (though some of the Waterloo ones are a little bit smaller), but both hit that official 13,5mm base to eye while the ECW ones are closer to 15mm to the eye

hence and Epic Mantic Enforcer given the size of 12mm total, it will be smaller than a Warlord Epic model by a similar difference as it will be larger than an LI Space Marine

Eumerin wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 kodos wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Having bought a 12mm scale wargame, pike and shotte epic, I hate the scale. Too detailed for me to cheat the painting Like I am for legions, small enough that it hurts my hand doing it. Is real annoying

the Warlord Games Epic ECW models?
those are 15mm and yes it is annoying as the very first epic models from Warlord were smaller and on the larger 12mm side but the ECW ones are "true" 15mm models and also fit other 15mm metal models

Ew really? Their epic scale minis vary in size by period??

I think it's just the ECW. I believe the ACW and Napoleonics are properly scaled against each other.


However, something to keep in mind is that the only difference between regular and Epic scale Black Powder is the size of the figures. The game is still exactly the same. Someone with Epic figures could play a game against someone with 25mm figures, and nothing would need to be changed.

this is not strictly true, you can take the normal Black Powder rules and play in 15mm, 6mm, heck 2mm and it will work, can even go to 54mm if you want

what they did with the Epic version was swap inches out for cm, which sounds good enough, and should have been but then they kept the unit frontages the same as the 28mm versions, which is daft as the commanders radius is now in cm and as such is basically useless.

this was a problem with the ACW version, where units were meant to be five bases wide, less so with the Napoleonic one where they went to four bases and the ECW looks like three bases.. had they kept measurement in inches and essentially just used the normal black powder rules, or rescaled the unit widths by the same amount it would have been fine

as it was when I tried it on a 6x4 table with just a single brigade of three regiments, plus some cannons on each side with a single commander the game became farcical as you either had an echelon formation or one unit was going to be out of command range at all times

the models are very nicely done though and are fine if you ignore the "epic" rulebook and just play the actual game

This scale discussion is not relevant to LI, take it to its own thread please. Either the Mantic thread for their product or a new thread in discussions for the general point.

Still not heard anything about the Oz release being delayed and when we might expect it.

It sounded like it was very last minute.

SM units:
Scimitars & Land Speeders are brutal, they pack a punch + Outflank for very few points.
Bikes, meh.
Drop Pods, extremely good for the super low cost. Problem is getting enough
Spartan very very good (Assault!!), Land raider seems not as good but then you see "Vanguard Deployment" and boom!!

SA units:
Dracosan too expensive (where is the second wound?? this is Malcador what we are talking about).
Basilisk, average. 1 shot at 5+ won't get far, but used as a regular tank with direct fire can compete with the Leman Russ. In the artillery company (and only in the artillery Co., that requieres just too many models) becomes very good as anti-tank artillery. For anti-infantry it just doesn't get enough shots. So people please stop screaming broken, because these (as the Vanquisher LR) will be close to useless against SM infantry/cavalry/air.
Medusa: meh.
Stormhammer: the Baneblade was good anti-infantry. This is just insane AP firepower and very good too with anti-tank weaponry.

I wonder when all these can be bought...

I find the TitanDeath rules very very good (it fixes some problems with costing of weapons, and allocation of hits).

can see bikes being useful in conjunction with infantry, get them charging, but specifically position to go around and hit from the rear - idea of cutting off retreat and maximising bases in contact, will take some practice but at least they are cheap

guessing dracosan is one wound because otherwise it starts to get silly, and even more expensive

as for when they can be bought.. oh so the key question

leopard wrote:


guessing dracosan is one wound because otherwise it starts to get silly, and even more expensive

Oh but the Spartan doesn't get silly?

And the points cost of the Dracosan seems for a 2 wound model...

SU-152 wrote:

Dracosan too expensive (where is the second wound?? this is Malcador what we are talking about).

I hate to say it, but I told you so

SU-152 wrote:


And the points cost of the Dracosan seems for a 2 wound model...

Which 2-wound models are 37pts?

SU-152 wrote:

leopard wrote:


guessing dracosan is one wound because otherwise it starts to get silly, and even more expensive

Oh but the Spartan doesn't get silly?

And the points cost of the Dracosan seems for a 2 wound model...

Spartan is "Assault Transport", its also more heavily armed and in the fluff allround better armoured, could see the second would being ~50% extra to the cost then its really out of whack for the likely cargo, v the Spartan which is likely bringing terminators

horses for things horses run round, given the cost of the infantry inside it I think the Dracosan is pretty decent where it is

the Spartan is actually quite interesting, given its got 8 lasercannons the thing only having a two dice attack is likely stopping thats points going right up at which points its robustness becomes questionable.

I suspect as well as GW screwing up points balance here, not including for upgrades, except on some aircraft and transports where they are starting to add costs they have gotten the baseline cost wrong, make basic marines cost twice what they do, scale from there and you have more space to vary costs and have it mean something

water under something water goes under though as its unlikely to change