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And more

Space crusade!

Finally


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry no idea how to orientate pictures when attaching from phone!

Great pics, Chris. There's always a table or two I miss somehow...

Some YouTube vids... I haven't watched all these yet, so may be varying opinions on the show... YMMV...

https://youtu.be/ailTBOul9Rc
https://youtu.be/lk4L1H5yeUI
https://youtu.be/EEIQRpMWvck
https://youtu.be/qwK9un7ptkw
https://youtu.be/Bgt8aRIBz74
https://youtu.be/HwAhf_IXBbU

The_Real_Chris wrote:

Anecdotal, but me, my fellow demonstration gamers (we were doing 15th century Italian warfare), and the members of the two clubs I go to, didn't buy anything. So 2 dozen people walking out empty handed. The round of of what did you buy in the next door pub was skipped. We may be addicted to the purchasing, but we all found the event to be a bit flat this year.

I guess one thing, esp if you're really into the hobby already, is that many of the venues and such at a convention, esp if you've been many times before, are ones you already know of.
Back in the old days before the net was as big as it is now, you'd still pick up a lot of that at conventions because many firms only appeared at conventions and because it really was the best and almost only place to really dig in deep to any brands that weren't the market leader.

Today the world is different and almost every venue selling will have a website where they also sell; they'll have a website; a twitter; a facebook. You go looking and you can find them.

So in a sense its much much easier to tap into smaller brands, lesser names and unique items and to also keep in touch and follow those that interest you from events.

The result being that you end up less and less reliant on the events. For new people or those new to events there's still a lot of fresh information and fresh stalls and such; but once you're in the system and keeping track you could find that you spend less. Esp if event prices are equal or greater than online and thus there's less "sale save now" mental pressure.

 Overread wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:

Anecdotal, but me, my fellow demonstration gamers (we were doing 15th century Italian warfare), and the members of the two clubs I go to, didn't buy anything. So 2 dozen people walking out empty handed. The round of of what did you buy in the next door pub was skipped. We may be addicted to the purchasing, but we all found the event to be a bit flat this year.

I guess one thing, esp if you're really into the hobby already, is that many of the venues and such at a convention, esp if you've been many times before, are ones you already know of.
Back in the old days before the net was as big as it is now, you'd still pick up a lot of that at conventions because many firms only appeared at conventions and because it really was the best and almost only place to really dig in deep to any brands that weren't the market leader.

Today the world is different and almost every venue selling will have a website where they also sell; they'll have a website; a twitter; a facebook. You go looking and you can find them.

So in a sense its much much easier to tap into smaller brands, lesser names and unique items and to also keep in touch and follow those that interest you from events.

The result being that you end up less and less reliant on the events. For new people or those new to events there's still a lot of fresh information and fresh stalls and such; but once you're in the system and keeping track you could find that you spend less. Esp if event prices are equal or greater than online and thus there's less "sale save now" mental pressure.

That is assuming you already know about those obscure newcomers already. You can only search online what you know about. Has someone that has been going there all the time Salute is still the best place to see/find new companies you were not aware about before, to check new debut ranges never seen before from established companies, theres actually some companies that plan ahead so that their big reveals are at Salute.
So yes in theory you're maybe right but not applicable in my experience.
All the Salutes I went there was always new stuff to get into and spend, this year the build up from suppliers before the event was almost non existent and at the event I agree it felt a bit flat. Still I did find 1 new company and gave them money.

Some great photos there Chris, thanks for posting!

Yes I agree Navarro, I always manage to be surprised and find new games that I haven't heard of when I am at Salute. I got a load of Drowned World and Bushido stuff there, but mostly as they were doing show discounts and that kind of stuff isn't that widely available. I noticed a few of the bigger companies (Warlord and Mantic for example) looked to be charging full RRP - I guess they were treating it as a marketing exercise, unless you spotted something rare there then there was no reason to buy at the show. Which is a shame.

Did someone mention Space Crusade?

SamusDrake wrote:
Did someone mention Space Crusade?

Wait, What? / GD11 / Space Crusade: The Wrath of Kanner / Docking Claws! Blips! Orks! Chaos Androids! Blood Angels in white armour for some reason! THE DREADNAUGHT! Be a kid again and return to the Crusade.

It was good, it was busy and I spent a lot - if you can only make one show a year make it the big one. I am always amazed at what I missed, how does one fail to see a large and awesome looking table?

So when is the next one?

Thanks for sharing all.

Lovely pictures. Thank you!

Did anyone see anything about a Cthulhu game at Salute? I think I saw a table for a game but I can't find any mention of what it maight be or who would be making it.

 .Mikes. wrote:
Did anyone see anything about a Cthulhu game at Salute? I think I saw a table for a game but I can't find any mention of what it maight be or who would be making it.

Achtung! Cthulhu Skirmish from Modiphius?

So... Salute 2023 was... disappointing. I've been going to Salute since 2014 for context.

This year felt significantly lighter on traders. Notably absent were:
- 4ground (closed up shop)
- Hasslefree (unable to attend)
- Freebooter (... Brexit?)
- Heresy (unable to attend prior to Brexit)
- Joek (probably closed...?)
- Mierce (god knows)
- Thunderchild (sold physical ranges, now all 3d)
- Colorforge (who've been at every other show this year)
- Forgeworld (who used to be regular attendees)

HF and Freebooter always got some money from me, and Joek is a good example of the sort of thing I love to see at Salute - small, passion projects. This year I found only one; Monkstone.

There were distinctly more retailers there this year it seemed - Exit23 are the UK distributors for Turbodork paints so... okay I guess? It's not really what I go for. Wayland seemed to have a larger presence again (as they and TT Combat continue to gobble up struggling mini-games).

Some of the stand setups were truly atrocious and I hope London Warlords reflect on this a bit. Take the Drowned Earth, who had demo tables butted up against sales wracks, or Corvus Belli who seemed to sling some models in a suitcase and set up a picnic table. Given just how much empty space was in the hall, encouraging traders to flatten out there stalls will make it easy to interact with people and traders, as well as help those with accessibility needs.

Mammoth miniatures had a nice little stand with rules for 'Planet 28' - a nice alternate to something like Xenos Rampant (that I was actually after and seemed to sell out quickly).

The seminars were an interesting addition this year, but the set-up was a mess. I did try to see the women in wargaming one, but it started with a load of energetic shouting which isn't my thing so I skipped it. I would like to see this next year in a better setup and see expanded panels covering inclusion in the wargaming community.

My missus, who attended around 2015 and this year, said "Everything looks a bit the same" which... is a really accurate assessment. The industry (as Miscast said in a recent video) seems to be moving away from fun little companies and towards massive dumps on the back of a Patreon, which will really hurt something like Salute. Thats reflected in my spending - I spent significantly less this year despite having a much larger budget.

Whilst its lovely to catch up with people at the show, if its the same next year... I'll probably leave it going forward.

 Gomezaddams wrote:
So... Salute 2023 was... disappointing. I've been going to Salute since 2014 for context.

This year felt significantly lighter on traders. Notably absent were:
- 4ground (closed up shop)
- Hasslefree (unable to attend)
- Freebooter (... Brexit?)
- Heresy (unable to attend prior to Brexit)
- Joek (probably closed...?)
- Mierce (god knows)
- Thunderchild (sold physical ranges, now all 3d)
- Colorforge (who've been at every other show this year)
- Forgeworld (who used to be regular attendees)

HF and Freebooter always got some money from me, and Joek is a good example of the sort of thing I love to see at Salute - small, passion projects. This year I found only one; Monkstone.


snip

The industry (as Miscast said in a recent video) seems to be moving away from fun little companies and towards massive dumps on the back of a Patreon, which will really hurt something like Salute. Thats reflected in my spending - I spent significantly less this year despite having a much larger budget.
.

Yes the industry is clearly moving to something else, I missed also the stands that were aimed at display painters with usually French companies delivering high quality miniatures. I also missed those companies from your huge list... it's not a small thing at all since they have been pretty much part of the furniture and have the best ranges for many many years. I would also add companies such as Otherworld miniatures, Northumbrian tin Soldier and Ground Zero games etc...
People say the hobby never been this good but to be honest thats not what I have seen at Salute, its clearly down atm.

I think there are elements at play (Brexit, recession) which are not necessarily a representation of the industry struggling.

I thought some of the other positives - more, younger gamers, a more diverse demographic etc. mean that there are reasons to be hopeful.

JoeK was apparently around with his pro-painter hat on delivering stuff to the folk over at Anyaral: The World Of Twilight

JoeK Minis
28 February
·
Blimey! It's been a while since I posted. The last few months have been rather busy! Half way through last year I had an absolute block on everything to do with the hobby. Had no motivation at all. By about November I just decided I needed to push through and since then I've been doing some painting every day. Some days just a few minutes, other days a fair few hours. It's become a routine again, which is *just* what I needed. Consequently the amount of figures painted was heavily, heavily weighed up in the latter half of 2022, and has progressed through to now. Here's the latest commission, and one I'm particularly happy with

but his own minis range does seem to be paused at the moment due to burnout

Yes the industry is clearly moving to something else, I missed also the stands that were aimed at display painters (sic.) I would also add companies such as Otherworld miniatures, Northumbrian tin Soldier and Ground Zero games

Otherworld have gone a little quiet, but Northumbrian Tin and GZG are ticking along (with NT diversifying into being a retailer as well). I think GZG will really feel the effects of not being there given their minimal social media presence and quite old ranges. I think all these usually had a relatively big stand as well, and them not being there is visually, a problem.

I think there are elements at play (Brexit, recession) which are not necessarily a representation of the industry struggling.

But... some of the 'big' companies (like any of those mentioned above) use Salute for marketing (some use it as their only source of marketing!). Yes its a big outlay, but the marketing and sales on the day easily cover it.

I also think some of the blame here falls on London Warlords. There are things that could have been done to balance out the space better. Taking a look at UK Games Expo, that seems far better organised and thought out by comparison. Ill be taking a look in June seeing as though I came home with most of my budget anyways.

The industry isn't struggling as such... it's just having a bit of an identity crisis. A lot of companies are still operating as they did ten-plus years ago - no social media, minimal interaction, ancient websites, and little awareness of what the rest of the industries doing. There's money out there to be had - you just have to make it easy for your consumer to give it to you. I just... don't think the industry has the energy for it, which is painful considering how well GWs doing.

The Bushido stand looked very tired. Again, my money was there for the taking this year.

I thought some of the other positives - more, younger gamers, a more diverse demographic etc. mean that there are reasons to be hopeful.

I can't say I saw that at Salute truth be told - don't get me wrong, its better than it was 10 years ago but the significant majority were white men (usually wearing Merrell Moabs like me - that was a weird game to play at Salute).

I really don't think there were more young people (seemed about the same), but really... what was there to attract young people to try something that wasn't Games Workshop?

I guess its very possible for experiences of this sort to be subjective! I was basing my observations by comparing to a previous trip about five years ago when, going with the same bunch of friends, we joked that the hobby (outside of GW) was going to be dead in fifteen years because there was literally no next generation of younger people coming through. This year I thought there was still of course a majority of old blokes/real ale drinkers with the stomach to prove it, but also a lot more younger people and also women. It was a surprise in fact, and I think it was maybe because of the growth of the miniature painting hobby and more diverse range of miniatures (think of Bad Squiddo games, who have grown from a tiny stand selling dice bags a decade ago to a large stand and full range of miniatures) and alternative miniature ranges, Moonstone, and a dozen other smaller companies doing miniature ranges which aren't all men with guns or historicals. There were a few seminars as well, with a 'women in wargaming' presentation, and things of that nature which may have helped to pull in a more diverse crowd.

At one of the stands (I forget which, but had a selection of anthropomorphic fantasy animals) it was full of people in their 20s/30s, both guys and girls, and the stand itself had a couple of younger people helping (and far too crowded - I agree that the layout in a lot of areas was terrible). On the stand next to them, an array of very tired historicals miniature cabinets, which looked like they had seen at least two or three decades of service, but no customers at all - it was a bit sad to see, but it demonstrated to me how the industry is changing - and perhaps at least Salute captured part of that, if not entirely successfully.

 Pacific wrote:
This year I thought there was still of course a majority of old blokes/real ale drinkers with the stomach to prove it

Is that a Viz joke?

I think there was more women and young people than previous events. In the past you also had some youngsters too but the majority was young lads with their dads... this year with the typical man bringing also the wife means you had full families attending with young daughters included not just the boys.

There are good points about old companies lack of interest on internet and marketing and looking all too tired... but newer companies also not doing it this year, which to me says it's an overall issue. The fact all of those establish companies did not attend speaks for itself.
There was also a big dice company missing this year with only 2 smaller dice stands instead.

One thing to consider is that the exponential growth of GW and relentless spam of GW products may actually also have eroded clients from the competition. In a recent past even on Dakka new companies or fans of new companies would post on news and rumours and would have feedback... today on Dakka if its not GW you can barely see a new post and even when someone actually posts here, it gets zero feedback.

On the 3d front and patreons well again these endeavours could care less about investing with actually physical stock. There was a few of those at Salute but their offers were not up to scratch in comparison with actually professionally traditional casts from others. Thats THE big difference and it's a race to the cheapest print which does not work well in these expos IMO.

Is Salute going to adjust or keep doing the same? Well this time we had celebrities which is fine but the companies that actually spend money producing minis and games for us and for those celebrities review etc need more attention. Maybe better stands options, layouts lateral activities etc. Something needs to be done because I fear in one more year of Brexit and war, energy crisis the fragile companies displayed there will just shrink further or close in droves.

I'm curious if any of you who were there saw much in the way of 3d printed product or companies selling/promoting it? If so, who and what?

Good point above re Warlords organisational skills - bluntly put they managed to really piss off a lot of people I know with some of their demands, short notice deadlines and incredibly amateur approaches to doing the show. Sorry to sound harsh but Salute is a success despite the Warlords, not because of it.

I think there was more women and young people than previous events.

I'm not sure if I agree, but it could be subjective - I thought it was about the same. Speaking very broadly, it was easier to spot those who had been dragged along, and those who were interested...

There was also a big dice company missing this year with only 2 smaller dice stands instead.

Thats true. About a dozen stores selling the same packet of bulk-buy brushes though...

One thing to consider is that the exponential growth of GW and relentless spam of GW products may actually also have eroded clients from the competition. In a recent past even on Dakka new companies or fans of new companies would post on news and rumours and would have feedback... today on Dakka if its not GW you can barely see a new post and even when someone actually posts here, it gets zero feedback.

I think thats part of it, but there's also a distinct difference in approach. You only have to look at the difference in approach pre and post Mantic to see how GW are really going after those sales. I think a lot of other companies did quite well in the early days of the internet, haven't adjusted with the times, and now stunned when business isn't what it was. There's clearly money in the market (Frostgrave is a great example of this) - you just have to go and get it...

On the 3d front and patreons well again these endeavours could care less about investing with actually physical stock. There was a few of those at Salute but their offers were not up to scratch in comparison with actually professionally traditional casts from others. Thats THE big difference and it's a race to the cheapest print which does not work well in these expos IMO.

So... an interesting thing here. I bought a 3d print at Salute, despite having a Saturn 2 sat in front of me - and it was more expensive then it was more expensive then it would be to do myself - why did I do this? Well partly it was laziness - I just wanted a test model, and couldn't be bothered firing up the printer. Secondly, I wanted to see what someone elses prints look like compared to mine, and thirdly I didn't want to shell out for a whole 'pack' before I knew whether I wanted to print a whole batch of them. I don't think its a race to the bottom - at Britcon this year, Winterdyne had some absolutely gorgeous terrain, at a reasonable price (not cheap, but not expensive for the scale of it).

As for being up to the standards of traditional casting... that ship sailed about two years ago. I've got 3d prints sharper than resin masters I own. Its all much of a muchness now.

I'm curious if any of you who were there saw much in the way of 3d printed products or companies selling/promoting it? If so, who and what?

I forgot to mention this - MyMiniFactory were sort of there alongside Only-Games (who brought a bunch of stuff at semi-reasonable prices). There were also several stalls that had 3d printed sets boxed up and for sale mixed alongside regular stock (Highland miniatures in particular). Weirdly those who were better placed to do this (Warp miniatures for example), didn't. I imagine next year we'll see others do more of this - if there was an opportunity to grab a Solwyte license, I'd be tempted to have a crack at it myself.

We are quickly heading to a point where either we'll have a 'digital' convention, or a convention where there's no miniatures stock and people print on site.

Good point above re Warlords organisational skills - bluntly put they managed to really piss off a lot of people I know with some of their demands, short notice deadlines and incredibly amateur approaches to doing the show. Sorry to sound harsh but Salute is a success despite the Warlords, not because of it.

Which is frustrating because they've been doing it for 50 years now, so there's really no excuses.

 Pacific wrote:
I think it was maybe because of the growth of the miniature painting hobby and more diverse range of miniatures (think of Bad Squiddo games, who have grown from a tiny stand selling dice bags a decade ago to a large stand and full range of miniatures) and alternative miniature ranges, Moonstone, and a dozen other smaller companies doing miniature ranges which aren't all men with guns or historicals. There were a few seminars as well, with a 'women in wargaming' presentation, and things of that nature which may have helped to pull in a more diverse crowd.

THAT'S ME! Thanks for the shout out! We've done every Salute since 2014 and people are still only just finiding us, even with the massive balloon arch, so you can definitely miss things among the mega hall!

Moonstone are friends of ours and they rock too!

Thats just occured to me.

Annie - were you asked to take part in the panel at all? As in, when I think of women in Wargaming I would probably think of you and Sally (Hasslefree) first