Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was rather excited to see chaos get the dark pacts ability to get some better odds at extra hits and mortals, with the chance of taking MW's. But after seeing that the black Templars get the same thing and more without the possible penalty of doing MW's to their own units is pretty lame IMO. Once again, chaos gets the sh*t end of the stick from GW.

What do my fellow chaos players have to say about this?

Everyone who plays CSM becomes as bitter as Perturabo. That is the way of things. Welcome...

Seems par for the course these days, unfortunately.

In the past Chaos made up for this by having distinct units that were superior themselves, or combined with their power-ups to put them into a unique power level. But those days seem to have gone the way of the dodo.

Add to that the insult of loyalists getting 2w Marines well ahead of the CSMs, instead of doing both at the same time. It shows where priorities are.

Blood Angels are even worse than CSM, so be happy with what you got

I don’t feel for CSM >in particular< because IMO every army is going to be shafted rules wise in some way. What gets me is the massive squatting of heresy and forge world items that was clearly the result of laziness and listening too much (or thinking they are anyway) to hyper competitive players.

CSM got hit extra hard mainly because they squatted some cool jets and daemon engines, that’s where they get my specific sympathy from.

I like how you completely ignored the fact BT pay for it by losing access to a ton of units (and, seeing buffs provided by SM librarians alone offer a lot of plays found nowhere else, this is a pretty substantial loss). Objectivity, what's that?

Would you play CSM faction that has no mortals on dark pacts as long as they bring no psykers and/or shooty units plus have other limitations yes/no?

Templars can pick either bonus, but they must do so at the beginning of the first battle round and it lasts for the entire game. They can't switch from one to another on a unit-by-unit basis, and it also only works in melee.

CSM make Dark Pacts on a unit-by-unit basis, which is much more flexible. If we have e.g. a unit already possessing Sustained Hits we can choose to give it Lethal Hits instead, and vice versa. Dark Pacts can also be made each time a unit is selected to shoot or fight, which means we can buff shooting units, which BT can't do, and Dark Pacts can be used in various out of sequence scenarios (e.g. while doing Overwatch in an opponent's Movement Phase).

The risk looks like it can largely be mitigated by icons, where those are present, and when the datacards are released there might be some interesting interactions between various units and Dark Pacts that make it more powerful.

Dark Pacts is also a faction rule as opposed to a detachment rule like Templar Vows (though the latter is combined with Oaths, which I think is pretty odious).

We'll see how things pan out. Won't exactly be a shock if we turn out inferior to the loyalists, but we've seen very little of CSM's 10th edition rules yet. But I'm pretty happy with Dark Pacts in an initial vacuum.

The Deer Hunter wrote:
Blood Angels are even worse than CSM, so be happy with what you got

Oath isn't that bad now is it?

 Irbis wrote:
I like how you completely ignored the fact BT pay for it by losing access to a ton of units

They lose Librarians, that's really it. That's NOT a big deal.

We don't have CSM sheets yet?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
We don't have CSM sheets yet?

No, but we got the CSM preview a couple weeks ago.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
I like how you completely ignored the fact BT pay for it by losing access to a ton of units

They lose Librarians, that's really it. That's NOT a big deal.

Not to mention that CSM also have to roll LD EVERY time we use a dark pact, so in some cases, models will be scooped up by the handful from D3 MW per unit.

 Gert wrote:
Everyone who plays CSM becomes as bitter as Perturabo. That is the way of things. Welcome...

Or as crazy as Konrad.

@OP: You want good rules for the Traitor Legions? Check out Horus Heresy. Nuff said.

Warhammer 40,000 Faction Focus: Chaos Space Marines notable fails to mention what the detachment ability is for the first detachment. We therefore do not know the comparable power level between the army and detachment rule for CSM and the various Space Marine chapters.

We do know the effectiveness of Dark Pacts will be depended upon the number of attacks and or rerolls CSM units have access to. Until we see more datasheets, we won't know enough to make a good judgement.

 alextroy wrote:
Warhammer 40,000 Faction Focus: Chaos Space Marines notable fails to mention what the detachment ability is for the first detachment. We therefore do not know the comparable power level between the army and detachment rule for CSM and the various Space Marine chapters.

We do know the effectiveness of Dark Pacts will be depended upon the number of attacks and or rerolls CSM units have access to. Until we see more datasheets, we won't know enough to make a good judgement.

We know "Daek Pacts" don’t fit with most Legions. All else is just the complementing of "competitive players". The End. It's all about winning tournaments at this point, as playing the Legions as they are supposed to be is entirely out of the window.

I look at the datasheet for Chaos Legionaries and can't help think GW disagrees with you. They can have a Chaos Icon, a psycher with a Balefire Tome, and arm their Aspiring Champion with an Accursed Weapon. I think some Dark Pacts have been made here

Then there is wondering whether it would be easier to mention the number of datasheets you can use rather than those you can't if your army doesn't make any Dark Pacts. No Daemon units. No Chosen. No Dark Apostles. No Cult units. No Chaos Spawns. Nor any Warp Talons. Heck, even the Raptor models look a bit too mutated to not be making Dark Pacts.

But feel free to hold onto the belief that some of the legions stand so totally apart from the Chaos Powers that they never make any sort of Dark Pacts.

 alextroy wrote:
I look at the datasheet for Chaos Legionaries and can't help think GW disagrees with you. They can have a Chaos Icon, a psycher with a Balefire Tome, and arm their Aspiring Champion with an Accursed Weapon. I think some Dark Pacts have been made here

Then there is wondering whether it would be easier to mention the number of datasheets you can use rather than those you can't if your army doesn't make any Dark Pacts. No Daemon units. No Chosen. No Dark Apostles. No Cult units. No Chaos Spawns. Nor any Warp Talons. Heck, even the Raptor models look a bit too mutated to not be making Dark Pacts.

But feel free to hold onto the belief that some of the legions stand so totally apart from the Chaos Powers that they never make any sort of Dark Pacts.

Having a few mutated units is a pretty big step from literally praying to your guns.

But hey, thanks for showing everyone that you know Jack about the Legions, and instead base your statements on gw's current (in 40K) Flanderisation and minimization of them. Tells me plenty about your opinions and "thoughts" on the matter.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
We know "Daek Pacts" don’t fit with most Legions.

feth fitting with most Legions. They don't fit Chaos, in general.

"But Chaos forces do make dark pacts with the Chaos Go-"

Yes of course they do, but on a macro scale. They don't pray to their guns several times a battle in the hope it gets more powerful, and randomly a few of them die. If doing such a thing resulted in deaths that frequently, there wouldn't be much of the Legions left.

 alextroy wrote:
I look at the datasheet for Chaos Legionaries and can't help think GW disagrees with you. They can have a Chaos Icon, a psycher with a Balefire Tome, and arm their Aspiring Champion with an Accursed Weapon. I think some Dark Pacts have been made here

Then there is wondering whether it would be easier to mention the number of datasheets you can use rather than those you can't if your army doesn't make any Dark Pacts. No Daemon units. No Chosen. No Dark Apostles. No Cult units. No Chaos Spawns. Nor any Warp Talons. Heck, even the Raptor models look a bit too mutated to not be making Dark Pacts.

To be honest, I feel like people not liking Dark Pacts is really just the tip of the iceberg, so I wouldn't necessarily assume that they have no problems with these listed entries. Especially Accursed Weapons, IIRC that was the Dark Pacts of the fanbase before Dark Pacts.

The issue surely is that Black Templar stuff only applies to their melee weapons?

Its possible the datasheets will have rules that link up with Dark Pacts. (And if Icons are very cheap, the units will them should pass reliably).

Various people clearly think differently, but I think the problem with Dark Pacts for competitive play is that its random. You don't get any 6s and then eat 3 mortal wounds for your trouble? Kind of sucks. By contrast, that time you roll a bunch of 6s, wipe a unit ahead of schedule and then pass the test? Going to feel good.

But that's different from say Fate Dice or Oaths of the Moment which are in your control.

Tyel wrote:
The issue surely is that Black Templar stuff only applies to their melee weapons?

Its possible the datasheets will have rules that link up with Dark Pacts. (And if Icons are very cheap, the units will them should pass reliably).

Various people clearly think differently, but I think the problem with Dark Pacts for competitive play is that its random. You don't get any 6s and then eat 3 mortal wounds for your trouble? Kind of sucks. By contrast, that time you roll a bunch of 6s, wipe a unit ahead of schedule and then pass the test? Going to feel good.

But that's different from say Fate Dice or Oaths of the Moment which are in your control.

It's almost like it's.... chaotic.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
We know "Daek Pacts" don’t fit with most Legions.

feth fitting with most Legions. They don't fit Chaos, in general.

"But Chaos forces do make dark pacts with the Chaos Go-"

Yes of course they do, but on a macro scale. They don't pray to their guns several times a battle in the hope it gets more powerful, and randomly a few of them die. If doing such a thing resulted in deaths that frequently, there wouldn't be much of the Legions left.

Dark Pacts would probably be a good Detachment Ability. But as a single unifying Faction Ability for all CSM? Blech.

I just figured that the pacts were a mixture of the fickle nature of the warp mixed with the various chants and slogans used by CSM in the heat of battle. Sort of a "witness me" thing.

You feel ripped off now? Just wait for the Index...

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Dark Pacts would probably be a good Detachment Ability. But as a single unifying Faction Ability for all CSM? Blech.

Completely agree.

These and Oaths of Moment would make great detachment abilities, but not the abilities that define the faction for a whole damned edition.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Dark Pacts would probably be a good Detachment Ability. But as a single unifying Faction Ability for all CSM? Blech.

Agreed, it fits some of them well enough that it can be an exaggeration of one style of pact, but also there are way too many very visible chaos forces that don't fit this model.

ccs wrote:
It's almost like it's.... chaotic.

Randomized risk/reward isn't the same as chaos, Chaos isn't the same as chaos.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Randomized risk/reward isn't the same as chaos, Chaos isn't the same as chaos.

Randomized risk/reward has literally been part of Chaos since inception, both mechanically and in universe.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
We know "Daek Pacts" don’t fit with most Legions.

feth fitting with most Legions. They don't fit Chaos, in general.

"But Chaos forces do make dark pacts with the Chaos Go-"

Yes of course they do, but on a macro scale. They don't pray to their guns several times a battle in the hope it gets more powerful, and randomly a few of them die. If doing such a thing resulted in deaths that frequently, there wouldn't be much of the Legions left.

Mechanically speaking, I think the rule is terrible. You have at roll for every unit every time you want to use it and you can use it every phase the unit is selected to fight or shoot. And you randomly take d3 Mortal Wounds if you fail the roll. Just bad rules mechanics.

However, Chaos Space Marines really says all you need to say. These guys are in bed with Chaos. Dark Pacts, mutations, and corruption have always been mentioned when talking about the CSM. The only question is how do you reflect that that doesn't just allow you to take Lethal Hits or Sustained Hits 1 each time your unit fights or shoots? Having it be free is a bit strong for an Army ability just like rolling to avoid taking Mortal Wound each time is also a bit too crunchy and anti-thematic.

Still, I do love people telling me I shouldn't trust GWs view of their IP. Reminds me of the old role-players maxim: The First Rule is the Dungeon Master is always right. The Second Rule is should the Dungeon Master ever be wrong, refer to the First Rule.

 alextroy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
We know "Daek Pacts" don’t fit with most Legions.

feth fitting with most Legions. They don't fit Chaos, in general.

"But Chaos forces do make dark pacts with the Chaos Go-"

Yes of course they do, but on a macro scale. They don't pray to their guns several times a battle in the hope it gets more powerful, and randomly a few of them die. If doing such a thing resulted in deaths that frequently, there wouldn't be much of the Legions left.

Still, I do love people telling me I shouldn't trust GWs view of their IP.

They get their own fluff and rules wrong all the time, so why WOULD you trust them?

 Platuan4th wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Randomized risk/reward isn't the same as chaos, Chaos isn't the same as chaos.

Randomized risk/reward has literally been part of Chaos since inception, both mechanically and in universe.

Yep, and the version that's just some numbers is bland. I was mostly pointing out how pedestrian it is to claim that a small range of bonuses or penalties constitutes something being "chaotic" and that a literal definition of chaos is equivalent to the faction's identity (which has actually supported ordered and discrete subfactions for ages, so much of Chaos runs off ideas of contracts or pacts which certainly speak to rules more than disorcer, etc.). My complaint is the lazy thinking that justifies this as somehow characterful because it's in the name: It's like saying a strong attack is like killing things which is like the death faction because they have the word death in their name, so isn't that characterful?

 spiralingcadaver wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Randomized risk/reward isn't the same as chaos, Chaos isn't the same as chaos.

Randomized risk/reward has literally been part of Chaos since inception, both mechanically and in universe.

Yep, and the version that's just some numbers is bland. I was mostly pointing out how pedestrian it is to claim that a small range of bonuses or penalties constitutes something being "chaotic" and that a literal definition of chaos is equivalent to the faction's identity (which has actually supported ordered and discrete subfactions for ages, so much of Chaos runs off ideas of contracts or pacts which certainly speak to rules more than disorcer, etc.). My complaint is the lazy thinking that justifies this as somehow characterful because it's in the name: It's like saying a strong attack is like killing things which is like the death faction because they have the word death in their name, so isn't that characterful?

You know you don't have to write an essay explaining that you didn't get the joke, right?