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 Daedalus81 wrote:
Eradicators might need a small bump, but they have half the shots, less access to buffs, and no MD.

Eradicators re-roll everything as an innate ability, so they neither need buffs nor MD. I think the costs should be swapped at the bare minimum, tho I would rather cost the Retributors to 90 (50 for the 5 girls and 40 for the 4 MMs).

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I do think Retributors are about where they should be. Eradicators might need a small bump, but they have half the shots, less access to buffs, and no MD.

( this is disregarding flamer and HB Rets since the value on those is questionable )

Explain how they're more expensive than Devastator marines? Please?

Also, how can they have less access to buffs than ZERO? Or are you going to attach a 35pt character onto 130pt 5 model T3 unit so that the ONE turn per game they get to shoot, they get ONE free six on the miracle dice?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So here's a pretty Standard Sisters list for 10th:

Vindicare Assassin 80
Inquisitor Greyfax 65
Inquisitorial Henchman 260pts
Knight Castellan 495
Celestine 150
Battle Sister Squad 110
Exorcist 140
Exorcist 140
Exorcist 140
Crusaders 20
Crusaders 20
Crusaders 20
DeathCults 35
DeathCults 35
DeathCults 35

You still have 255pts left, but it's probably best to just leave those open to try and deny secondaries.

ERJAK wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I do think Retributors are about where they should be. Eradicators might need a small bump, but they have half the shots, less access to buffs, and no MD.

( this is disregarding flamer and HB Rets since the value on those is questionable )

Explain how they're more expensive than Devastator marines? Please?

Also, how can they have less access to buffs than ZERO? Or are you going to attach a 35pt character onto 130pt 5 model T3 unit so that the ONE turn per game they get to shoot, they get ONE free six on the miracle dice?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So here's a pretty Standard Sisters list for 10th:

Vindicare Assassin 80
Inquisitor Greyfax 65
Inquisitorial Henchman 260pts
Knight Castellan 495
Celestine 150
Battle Sister Squad 110
Exorcist 140
Exorcist 140
Exorcist 140
Crusaders 20
Crusaders 20
Crusaders 20
DeathCults 35
DeathCults 35
DeathCults 35

You still have 255pts left, but it's probably best to just leave those open to try and deny secondaries.

Exos, Crusaders, DCAs are all awful. Triamph is actually cheap enough to chuck in your BSS...

ERJAK wrote:
So here's a pretty Standard Sisters list for 10th:

Vindicare Assassin 80
Inquisitor Greyfax 65
Inquisitorial Henchman 260pts
Knight Castellan 495
Celestine 150
Battle Sister Squad 110
Exorcist 140
Exorcist 140
Exorcist 140
Crusaders 20
Crusaders 20
Crusaders 20
DeathCults 35
DeathCults 35
DeathCults 35

You still have 255pts left, but it's probably best to just leave those open to try and deny secondaries.

I laughed way harder at this than I should have.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Eradicators might need a small bump, but they have half the shots, less access to buffs, and no MD.

Eradicators re-roll everything as an innate ability, so they neither need buffs nor MD. I think the costs should be swapped at the bare minimum, tho I would rather cost the Retributors to 90 (50 for the 5 girls and 40 for the 4 MMs).

That they do - I forgot the MM was 4+ for marines in the other thread, so...

2 * .888 * .555 * 3.5 = 3.4
2 * .75 * .555 * 3.5 = 2.9

6.3 total

8 * .5 * .388 = 1.55 - sub MD for a 6 on damage -- 0.55 * 3.5 = 1.93 + 6 = 7.9

25% more. 90 * 1.25 = 113

Both units can get Lethal. Rets can get +1/+1 through multiple means, and reroll full wounds.

I'm not saying it's perfect, but it also isn't absurd.

A.T. wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
Not really because SM Eradicators are 95.

Even if they weren't, 4 devastators with cover ignoring lascannons are still 10 points cheaper than 4 multimelta retributors.

You can get the better part of three devastator squads for the same points as two retributor squads with the dialogus, and you'd be picking poorly from the marine codex if you did.

How can you get a dev squad with 4 lascannons for cheaper than a retributer squad?

So, first impression of the points:

- Stunned how cheap Vahl and the Triumph are.

- Most of the Close combat infantry seems very well costed

- Characters are cheap enough even with the ten woman squads to just add as an upgrade.


- Paragons are, a little too expensive. Is it as good as ten sacrosanct or Repentia that are cheaper or a few tanks? I think 200 was the right level.

- Sisters getting melta guns in the points is good. Although, I am not convinced they’re quite at the right points bracket. They’re still a little over half the cost of a ten man marine squad which more than doubled but their profile and are better in every way. Whilst internally, because everything is so cheap I am not sure why you wouldn’t just take the better units that have comparable points. It’s probably workable to do an infantry hoarde of Sisters but there’s a lot tempting you not to do that. I think they should have been 90 points to make a much clearer distinction and let you outnumber marines.

But overall, yeah 2000 points you can get a lot of options with those point values and free guns.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Eradicators might need a small bump, but they have half the shots, less access to buffs, and no MD.

Eradicators re-roll everything as an innate ability, so they neither need buffs nor MD. I think the costs should be swapped at the bare minimum, tho I would rather cost the Retributors to 90 (50 for the 5 girls and 40 for the 4 MMs).

That they do - I forgot the MM was 4+ for marines in the other thread, so...

2 * .888 * .555 * 3.5 = 3.4
2 * .75 * .555 * 3.5 = 2.9

6.3 total

8 * .5 * .388 = 1.55 - sub MD for a 6 on damage -- 0.55 * 3.5 = 1.93 + 6 = 7.9

25% more. 90 * 1.25 = 113

Both units can get Lethal. Rets can get +1/+1 through multiple means, and reroll full wounds.

I'm not saying it's perfect, but it also isn't absurd.

Retri cant get +1 to wound unless they are down to 2 left which at t3 and 1wound is really close to just plain dead.
If you want full rerolls to wound from the immo you have to have disembarked from that immo this turn so you are essentially sacrificing.
Lets not forget the SM units are orders of magnitude tougher with t4 and multiple wounds+ having literally twice the range which means they can shoot from the backfield and cover alot more easily as well as remaining stationary for + to hit from heavy.

So with all that in addition to costing more I would have hoped the retri would have a higher damage output but they dont.

 Mythantor wrote:
How can you get a dev squad with 4 lascannons for cheaper than a retributer squad?

5 retributors cost 130pts, whereas 5 devastators cost 120pts ?

(excluding dialogus)

Lammia wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I do think Retributors are about where they should be. Eradicators might need a small bump, but they have half the shots, less access to buffs, and no MD.

( this is disregarding flamer and HB Rets since the value on those is questionable )

Explain how they're more expensive than Devastator marines? Please?

Also, how can they have less access to buffs than ZERO? Or are you going to attach a 35pt character onto 130pt 5 model T3 unit so that the ONE turn per game they get to shoot, they get ONE free six on the miracle dice?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So here's a pretty Standard Sisters list for 10th:

Vindicare Assassin 80
Inquisitor Greyfax 65
Inquisitorial Henchman 260pts
Knight Castellan 495
Celestine 150
Battle Sister Squad 110
Exorcist 140
Exorcist 140
Exorcist 140
Crusaders 20
Crusaders 20
Crusaders 20
DeathCults 35
DeathCults 35
DeathCults 35

You still have 255pts left, but it's probably best to just leave those open to try and deny secondaries.

Exos, Crusaders, DCAs are all awful. Triamph is actually cheap enough to chuck in your BSS...

Exos have indirect fire. Besides, what else are you gonna take? Retributors for 10pts less? At least Exos can shoot more than once per game.
Crusaders and Deathcults are cheap, can stand on objectives, and are annoying to remove. Which is more than ANY of the other infantry units can do.
The Triumph gives up free assasinate points. I'm only taking Celestine because I like her, not because she's good.

It's a joke list, but not THAT much of a joke list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Eradicators might need a small bump, but they have half the shots, less access to buffs, and no MD.

Eradicators re-roll everything as an innate ability, so they neither need buffs nor MD. I think the costs should be swapped at the bare minimum, tho I would rather cost the Retributors to 90 (50 for the 5 girls and 40 for the 4 MMs).

That they do - I forgot the MM was 4+ for marines in the other thread, so...

2 * .888 * .555 * 3.5 = 3.4
2 * .75 * .555 * 3.5 = 2.9

6.3 total

8 * .5 * .388 = 1.55 - sub MD for a 6 on damage -- 0.55 * 3.5 = 1.93 + 6 = 7.9

25% more. 90 * 1.25 = 113

Both units can get Lethal. Rets can get +1/+1 through multiple means, and reroll full wounds.

I'm not saying it's perfect, but it also isn't absurd.

Rets CANNOT get Lethal hits.

 Mythantor wrote:

Retri cant get +1 to wound unless they are down to 2 left which at t3 and 1wound is really close to just plain dead.
If you want full rerolls to wound from the immo you have to have disembarked from that immo this turn so you are essentially sacrificing.
Lets not forget the SM units are orders of magnitude tougher with t4 and multiple wounds+ having literally twice the range which means they can shoot from the backfield and cover alot more easily as well as remaining stationary for + to hit from heavy.

So with all that in addition to costing more I would have hoped the retri would have a higher damage output but they dont.

Absolutely - totally conditional stuff, but check this out...

4 * .666 * .583 * 3.5 = 5.4 -- that's two Rets left alive with no MD producing output that is pretty close to the Eradicators with full rerolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:
Rets CANNOT get Lethal hits.

Whoops - you're right. My bad there.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Mythantor wrote:

Retri cant get +1 to wound unless they are down to 2 left which at t3 and 1wound is really close to just plain dead.
If you want full rerolls to wound from the immo you have to have disembarked from that immo this turn so you are essentially sacrificing.
Lets not forget the SM units are orders of magnitude tougher with t4 and multiple wounds+ having literally twice the range which means they can shoot from the backfield and cover alot more easily as well as remaining stationary for + to hit from heavy.

So with all that in addition to costing more I would have hoped the retri would have a higher damage output but they dont.

Absolutely - totally conditional stuff, but check this out...

4 * .666 * .583 * 3.5 = 5.4 -- that's two Rets left alive with no MD producing output that is pretty close to the Eradicators with full rerolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:
Rets CANNOT get Lethal hits.

Whoops - you're right. My bad there.

If we're creating imaginary scenarios that will never happen in practical reality, I'd like a pony.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Eradicators might need a small bump, but they have half the shots, less access to buffs, and no MD.

Eradicators re-roll everything as an innate ability, so they neither need buffs nor MD. I think the costs should be swapped at the bare minimum, tho I would rather cost the Retributors to 90 (50 for the 5 girls and 40 for the 4 MMs).

That they do - I forgot the MM was 4+ for marines in the other thread, so...

2 * .888 * .555 * 3.5 = 3.4
2 * .75 * .555 * 3.5 = 2.9

They re-roll the Damage too, so that 3.5 is more like 4.5.

ERJAK wrote:
If we're creating imaginary scenarios that will never happen in practical reality, I'd like a pony.

It's not something you count on, but it's something of value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AtoMaki wrote:
They re-roll the Damage too, so that 3.5 is more like 4.5.

Ah, right. That will skew it in their favor more and I'm not against them getting an increase, but I don't think it's that far off.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
If we're creating imaginary scenarios that will never happen in practical reality, I'd like a pony.

It's not something you count on, but it's something of value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AtoMaki wrote:
They re-roll the Damage too, so that 3.5 is more like 4.5.

Ah, right. That will skew it in their favor more and I'm not against them getting an increase, but I don't think it's that far off.

Basic problem with retri is its 130 points for a unit you will only get to fire once. They are too fragile and their weapons too short range to expect anything else.

If you are using Miracle Dice for the Retributors porbably should include Oath of the Moment for Marines?

 Mr Morden wrote:
If you are using Miracle Dice for the Retributors porbably should include Oath of the Moment for Marines?

OotM does nothing for the Eradicators because they have baked-in re-rolls.

So, I'm sort of past the 'Sky is falling' part and towards the 'I guess we'll just make do' part.

SO a REAL attempt at a list.

Straight off, DO NOT take a full Sisters army. There's absolutely no reason to do so when Knights are basically free and Vindicares pay YOU to bring them.

Vindicare 80
Greyfax 65
Knight Crusader 415 (This is just the type I have painted. Honestly, which Knight to bring is the most interesting question in the whole army.)
Triumph 150
Celestine 150
Exorcist 140
Exorcist 140
Exorcist 140
Battle Sisters 110
Zephyrim 140
Novitiates 90
Novitiates 90
Rhino 80
Rhino 80
Crusader 20
Crusader 20
Missionary 35
Palatine 55

Honestly not sure if the characters are worth it. Basically, you use the Knight and the Vindicare for the heavy lifting, you use the Triumph Buffed (Unlimited AoF+FNP) Exorcists to hide behind a ruin and plink off wounds. Everything else is there to either sit on objectives, screen, or die to get more MD.

ERJAK wrote:
There's absolutely no reason to do so when Knights are basically free

This might well be my excuse to finally buy and build a knight.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
If you are using Miracle Dice for the Retributors porbably should include Oath of the Moment for Marines?

OotM does nothing for the Eradicators because they have baked-in re-rolls.

They reroll against anything big or just vehicles?

EviscerationPlague wrote:
They reroll against anything big or just vehicles?

All monsters and vehicles.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

The players that play 40k for a living tend to build their following due to exceptional tournament results. Are you going to argue that Seigler and Nanavati don't know what they're talking about?

Nanavati has made a living out of having no idea what he was talking about. At the height of Harlequin power in ninth edition this delusional feth was saying they were at best a B-tier army because he was awful with them and couldn't make them work.

You can easily be good at a game while also being kind of an idiot who has no idea what you are talking about.

A.T. wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
They reroll against anything big or just vehicles?

All monsters and vehicles.

Eh, Oath against super elite infantry like Custodes or Terminators/Aggressors

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Nanavati has made a living out of having no idea what he was talking about. At the height of Harlequin power in ninth edition this delusional feth was saying they were at best a B-tier army because he was awful with them and couldn't make them work.

You can easily be good at a game while also being kind of an idiot who has no idea what you are talking about.

Maybe I'm forgetting my timings, but I think he (and half the professional scene) didn't twig Harlequins out of the gate because they spent a day reading the Eldar bit of the book and by the time Harlequins came along had got bored/tired. I sort of have some sympathy because I essentially did the same.

His argument on Ork Buggies was more contrary to reality. "It's allergic to trees."
"Oh wait, hang on, its tabling whole armies turn 1."
Maybe he'd recently been playing on some table set up for Mordheim. But I think it was more this professional scene "the game isn't just mathhammer" flex - but "afraid when its that busted, it is."

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

The players that play 40k for a living tend to build their following due to exceptional tournament results. Are you going to argue that Seigler and Nanavati don't know what they're talking about?

Nanavati has made a living out of having no idea what he was talking about. At the height of Harlequin power in ninth edition this delusional feth was saying they were at best a B-tier army because he was awful with them and couldn't make them work.

You can easily be good at a game while also being kind of an idiot who has no idea what you are talking about.

Also, you can just lie because having a positive attitude gets better viewer retention.

Tyel wrote:


Maybe I'm forgetting my timings, but I think he (and half the professional scene) didn't twig Harlequins out of the gate because they spent a day reading the Eldar bit of the book and by the time Harlequins came along had got bored/tired. I sort of have some sympathy because I essentially did the same.

His argument on Ork Buggies was more contrary to reality. "It's allergic to trees."
"Oh wait, hang on, its tabling whole armies turn 1."
Maybe he'd recently been playing on some table set up for Mordheim. But I think it was more this professional scene "the game isn't just mathhammer" flex - but "afraid when its that busted, it is."

Out the gate my fething ass. He was saying that about Harlequins when they had been regularly crushing podiums for like a month or two and had what? A 60% win rate or higher? I forget what they were rocking in their 9e prime.

But he apparently consistently had a problem getting them to work against other high level players. So of course he thought "I'm a great player, if I can't play this faction against top players with their top lists it can't be a great army!"

And everybody, even the AoW fanbase, knew he was delusional. And that's fine. He's a human being like anyone else. I was certainly delusional about the strength of the Daemons codex in ninth when it was released. Don't put him on some pedestal just because he happens to be very good at the game, he can easily be wrong about things pertaining to that game, like how Dopa of League of Legends fame (very skilled high elo player) made the hot take that Ryze after his latest rework was basically useless and wouldn't be seen in Worlds only for surprise Pikachu face for him to be the most dominant champion of Worlds.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


Nanavati has made a living out of having no idea what he was talking about. At the height of Harlequin power in ninth edition this delusional feth was saying they were at best a B-tier army because he was awful with them and couldn't make them work.

You can easily be good at a game while also being kind of an idiot who has no idea what you are talking about.

And GK were suppose to be the OP in 8th, and that is why they needed smite nerfs and damage nerfs, because they were too good. I respect for what the guy achived as a tournament player. But some of his takes make no sense at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK 810282 11550929 wrote:
Also, you can just lie because having a positive attitude gets better viewer retention.

Well that isn't really true. All the media organisations in all countries, all across the planet live out of the fact that they show negative stuff. In fact when stuff gets better or good, they suffer decline in readership/viewership etc. People can ignore someone being not factualy true, if they are entertaining, and not trying to preach. But whole swath of internet exist only to focused on the negative. Now companies that supply you with products 100% want you to be happy and positive about everything. The problem with w40k and GW is that a lot of excusses other companies can make, do not work for GW. They are on their 10th edition, with decades of expiriance and the opposit of small indy developer.

Karol wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:


Nanavati has made a living out of having no idea what he was talking about. At the height of Harlequin power in ninth edition this delusional feth was saying they were at best a B-tier army because he was awful with them and couldn't make them work.

You can easily be good at a game while also being kind of an idiot who has no idea what you are talking about.

And GK were suppose to be the OP in 8th, and that is why they needed smite nerfs and damage nerfs, because they were too good. I respect for what the guy achived as a tournament player. But some of his takes make no sense at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK 810282 11550929 wrote:
Also, you can just lie because having a positive attitude gets better viewer retention.

Well that isn't really true. All the media organisations in all countries, all across the planet live out of the fact that they show negative stuff. In fact when stuff gets better or good, they suffer decline in readership/viewership etc. People can ignore someone being not factualy true, if they are entertaining, and not trying to preach. But whole swath of internet exist only to focused on the negative. Now companies that supply you with products 100% want you to be happy and positive about everything. The problem with w40k and GW is that a lot of excusses other companies can make, do not work for GW. They are on their 10th edition, with decades of expiriance and the opposit of small indy developer.

For NEWS negativity sells.

For luxury entertainment, it's generally more complicated. For every 'Velma was successful because of hatewatching' there's at least 1 'I just can't watch him because he's so negative all the time!'.

ERJAK wrote:

For luxury entertainment, it's generally more complicated. For every 'Velma was successful because of hatewatching' there's at least 1 'I just can't watch him because he's so negative all the time!'.

people generally like to watch something that makes them feel positive about their hobby purchases, If I just spend 250 bucks on Leviathen for the tyranid minis I, as a person, proably don't want to hear "TYRANIDS ARE GARBAGE ALL THESE MODELS SUCK!"

They want to feel energy for their hobby, no one wants to spend 15 minutes listening to someone telling them the game they're investing in was a waste of money

BrianDavion wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

For luxury entertainment, it's generally more complicated. For every 'Velma was successful because of hatewatching' there's at least 1 'I just can't watch him because he's so negative all the time!'.

people generally like to watch something that makes them feel positive about their hobby purchases, If I just spend 250 bucks on Leviathen for the tyranid minis I, as a person, proably don't want to hear "TYRANIDS ARE GARBAGE ALL THESE MODELS SUCK!"

They want to feel energy for their hobby, no one wants to spend 15 minutes listening to someone telling them the game they're investing in was a waste of money

I don't know. I think if I'd spent $250 on something that would ultimately be a bit of a lemon, I'd rather somebody tell me and make me feel a little stupid than toil futilely with my purchase, probably spend some more money to make it better, and ultimately give it all up eventually anyways.

On a related note, I hate that Goonhammer titled its articles on the various indices as "reviews". Those weren't reviews, they were puff pieces. I'm not trusting anything they say again.