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EviscerationPlague wrote:
Undying robots also got worse guns than whatever the Eldar fanboys got. Eldar fanspank is far worse.

Sounds lore accurate. After all, said robots were so scared of the Eldar that they went to sleep for millions of years.

Honestly, SoB seem to be really suffering from the fact that so many of the standard/traditional weapons are utter trash in 10th.

Bolters have been pitiful ever since Marines gorged themselves silly and doubled in wounds.
Flamers have been arse for the last 3 editions because 1d6 hits with no AP is simply not impressive.
And now 10th has decided that the classic anti-vehicle weapon needs to be trash against vehicles.

Boosykes wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

It's not at all upsetting it's more silly than anything. Litteral terminator robots or dudes in ceramic armor. Accent robot people with the most advanced ed tech in the setting litteraly millions of years old or some roided out human.

Look I like marines as much as the next guy they are cool. But frankly their lore is a little embarising when compared to other factions in the setting. Muscle will never outdo sufficiently advanced machine this has been proven a million times over.

On a related point, I've never been all that interested in the ever more ridiculous power fantasy of Marines.

Being super-humans is fine but I liked when they were still weaker than a lot of enemies. Not just enemies like Hive Tyrants but even many troops and such. It meant they still had to rely heavily on better tactics and such, rather than brute strength.

It also made them feel a bit more heroic because the odds weren't so much in their favour. I doubt Iron Man would look as heroic if he put on a billion-dollar super-suit to blow up angry kittens.

As it stands, I just don't see the appeal when Space Marines are surrounded by plot armour made of the author's own drool.

 Crimson wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Undying robots also got worse guns than whatever the Eldar fanboys got. Eldar fanspank is far worse.

Sounds lore accurate. After all, said robots were so scared of the Eldar that they went to sleep for millions of years.

That's.......not what happened

 vipoid wrote:
Honestly, SoB seem to be really suffering from the fact that so many of the standard/traditional weapons are utter trash in 10th.

Bolters have been pitiful ever since Marines gorged themselves silly and doubled in wounds.
Flamers have been arse for the last 3 editions because 1d6 hits with no AP is simply not impressive.
And now 10th has decided that the classic anti-vehicle weapon needs to be trash against vehicles.

Not sure that's the issue. Any more than "T3 3+ can't possibly work, ignore all the worse stat lines in the game that can work". I think the problem is SoB evolved into a stabby army (preferably Bloody Rose) but are now in an edition which has nerfed stabbing. Especially "light stabbing" - as we see with DE. But they have nothing else points efficient to fall back on.

I don't think assault is the way to go - but Drazar+Incubi or Lelith+Wyches serve as missiles that count if they land. Celestians by contrast just seem too pillowfisted to matter. I feel Repentia with all the rerolls aren't awful - but just having 3 attacks base would move them up in the world. You just can't have assault units which are so-so into marines and then trash into anything further up the food chain - especially if they just die if anything serious looks at them.

At the very least any unit which can take a Canoness or Palatine should be able to take one of the smaller buffing characters rather than just the regular Sisters squad. The Palatine should be able to sacrifice say 3 miracle dice to give her whole squad the mortal wound bonus. (Maybe this would be too good, not bothered to math it out.)

Boosykes wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

ccs wrote:

They certainly weren't portrayed that way in 2e.
Either in lore or pts%mechanics.

Can you show me a single piece of lore that shows Necrons not massively outnumbering Marines on the battlefield?

I don't give a single gak about points and gameplay by the way. The Necrons of old were simply pointed and statted wrong. The current portrayal is far closer to lore accurate.


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Hecaton wrote:

Exactly. Also, there are more Leman Russ tanks than there are Astartes in the galaxy. Quality is not inversely correlated with quality.

But yeah, I'd be ok with T4 sororitas. If orks can be t5 they can be t4.

Kind of an idiotic comparison given that a Leman Russ is a big fatass tank that is only good for being a big fatass tank. Can it teleport or drop pod into the enemy command center and decapitate the enemy command and then bounce out with no problems? Because if Necron Warriors were actually as good as Marines or better then the Necrons, having access to arguably the best teleportation technology in the entire setting, would be able to leverage the trillions of Space Marine equivalents they have access to to conquer the entire galaxy.

Only they don't do any of that gak. They're a slow lumbering horde of reanimating goons who walk forward and shoot and get mowed down by the hundreds by Marines.

If you are not Custodes, Knights, or CSM your line troops are inferior to Marines man for man. I'm sorry if this upsets anyone.

It's not at all upsetting it's more silly than anything. Litteral terminator robots or dudes in ceramic armor. Accent robot people with the most advanced ed tech in the setting litteraly millions of years old or some roided out human.

Look I like marines as much as the next guy they are cool. But frankly their lore is a little embarising when compared to other factions in the setting. Muscle will never outdo sufficiently advanced machine this has been proven a million times over.

So ya sci fi setting and all but frankly necrons should probably be way stronger with better guns than marines and since they are millions of years old (a number humans can't comprehend, look at any civilization today most are a few hundred years old) they should be balanced by being very few in number.

So sure marine spank all around I will join you sometimes but ya suspension Of disbelief is a little hard when marine lore starts to get carried away.

Makes for a good story when marines show up and save the day from mellenials old robot horrers but if this were even close to reality marines would get wrecked. You got dudes with 2 hearts or litteral undying robots.

Yes Necron Warriors should have 8 toughness, 10 wounds, ressurection protocals worth a damn, and a 2+ armor save.

and then Necron players can complain their army is unplayable because a block of necron warriors costs as much as a bloody titan.

If you want a Necron troop that's as individually strong as a Space Marine the Immortals are very much just that so warriors being adjusted into chaffy CR 1/2 skeletons isn't that big of a deal

Why exactly are you guys repeating the necron vs marine power level argument in a sisters thread?

Personally, what I consider sisters needs is to focus more on the glass canon part.

-Make a holy trinity rule if they hit all the same unit target. CORE for the whole faction, and it makes their building more interesting rather than all melta or all flamer. Something like: +1 AP for bolters, +1 to wound for Melta, Flamer forces a Battle Shock.

-I feel most sisters need +1A in close combat. Perhaps not regular sisters, but most infantry roster definitely.

-Castigator battle cannon needs +1AP to deal better with high armor.

-Regarding survibility, no reason to give sisters 4T or 2W. Its nonsense really. But they could swap the invulnerable for FNP. Only reason against is that it slows games further.

-Celestine hit like a wet noodle. She should be able to cut Terminators in half and go toe to toe with Chaos Lords, but her dmg output is too low right now.

-MM and melta in general needs a Anti-Vehicle 4+.

I can see some point adjustments in sisters,... but honestly, I think the point adjustments shouldnt be done to her but to other armies. Space Marines should NOT be as cheap as they are for what they offer. If you want loreful elite marines, price them accordingly.

 Guillérmidas wrote:
Personally, what I consider sisters needs is to focus more on the glass canon part.

-Make a holy trinity rule if they hit all the same unit target. CORE for the whole faction, and it makes their building more interesting rather than all melta or all flamer. Something like: +1 AP for bolters, +1 to wound for Melta, Flamer forces a Battle Shock.

-I feel most sisters need +1A in close combat. Perhaps not regular sisters, but most infantry roster definitely.

-Castigator battle cannon needs +1AP to deal better with high armor.

-Regarding survibility, no reason to give sisters 4T or 2W. Its nonsense really. But they could swap the invulnerable for FNP. Only reason against is that it slows games further.

-Celestine hit like a wet noodle. She should be able to cut Terminators in half and go toe to toe with Chaos Lords, but her dmg output is too low right now.

-MM and melta in general needs a Anti-Vehicle 4+.

I can see some point adjustments in sisters,... but honestly, I think the point adjustments shouldnt be done to her but to other armies. Space Marines should NOT be as cheap as they are for what they offer. If you want loreful elite marines, price them accordingly.

All seems very sensible

Problem is, in a world of DW and Towering elite armies do not function. And I say this as someone whose army is pointed higher then marine for weaker efficiency, on all units.
Sure a basic marine can cost 25pts. But then marines will be where Votan are now, and all armies that are marine+, will have a 10% win rate down from 28%. The way to fix a bad army is not to make other armies bad too, bar extrem outliers like eldar at various moments of every edition.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

ccs wrote:
They certainly weren't portrayed that way in 2e.
Either in lore or pts%mechanics.

Ok, and? Necron Warriors have existed in their current state for longer than they were ever what they were in 2nd Ed. It'd be like getting annoyed because Marines aren't T3 ex-criminals anymore like they were back in the RT days.

And 2nd Ed ended almost 25 years ago.

But even in 3rd ed, through most of 5th, Necron Warriors were priced at 18 to a Marines 15, and were worth it. They held a position as 'greater than a marine' in raw stats and capability. Warriors got hit hard over the years since.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

ccs wrote:

They certainly weren't portrayed that way in 2e.
Either in lore or pts%mechanics.

Can you show me a single piece of lore that shows Necrons not massively outnumbering Marines on the battlefield?

I don't give a single gak about points and gameplay by the way. The Necrons of old were simply pointed and statted wrong. The current portrayal is far closer to lore accurate.


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Hecaton wrote:

Exactly. Also, there are more Leman Russ tanks than there are Astartes in the galaxy. Quality is not inversely correlated with quality.

But yeah, I'd be ok with T4 sororitas. If orks can be t5 they can be t4.

Kind of an idiotic comparison given that a Leman Russ is a big fatass tank that is only good for being a big fatass tank. Can it teleport or drop pod into the enemy command center and decapitate the enemy command and then bounce out with no problems? Because if Necron Warriors were actually as good as Marines or better then the Necrons, having access to arguably the best teleportation technology in the entire setting, would be able to leverage the trillions of Space Marine equivalents they have access to to conquer the entire galaxy.

Only they don't do any of that gak. They're a slow lumbering horde of reanimating goons who walk forward and shoot and get mowed down by the hundreds by Marines.

If you are not Custodes, Knights, or CSM your line troops are inferior to Marines man for man. I'm sorry if this upsets anyone.

What a silly argument. Tyranid Warriors say hi. And there are billions of them.

Also, Necrons could be better individually than Marines, with access to teleportation, and still not auto-win conflicts. Because in case you forget, the Imperium has numerous fighting forces other than the Marines, such as the Guard, the Navy, the Mechanicum, the Sororitas etc. Plus, the Necrons have their own alternate conflicts that require attention.

shortymcnostrill wrote:
Why exactly are you guys repeating the necron vs marine power level argument in a sisters thread?

No idea.

So necrons should have chaff points, be stronger then marines and have a heavy resurection theme? That would make them very uninteractive and unfun to play against, as we already seen in 9th ed, when they dominated an entire seson playing soliter.

Karol wrote:
So necrons should have chaff points, be stronger then marines and have a heavy resurection theme? That would make them very uninteractive and unfun to play against, as we already seen in 9th ed, when they dominated an entire seson playing soliter.

Did you miss the part where a Warrior used to be 20% more expensive than a Marine?

yes. but they are not now. The paradigma now and which influances stuff like boxes/unit sized etc means that necron warriors are run in large numbers. GW is not suddenly going to go, oh lets make necron players buy fewer models for their armies.

First off: I'm Guard collector not Sisters.

But on a general point: from what I read and heard I also think GW did you pretty dirty. And it would be kind of cruel if Sisters would be put towards a horde playstyle as I agree this would feel pretty strange lore wise.

On the whole "Meltas suck vs. armor"/"we don't have real anti armor capability": what I could see working pretty good without getting into this whole "If SoB Meltas get buffed, than SM Meltas should get the same stats!" mess: The IG Leman Russ Exterminator has the interesting ability that if he hits something with his autocannons, everything else hitting that target gets +1 because lorewise it has already weakened the armor. I could see a similar ability for sisters with the explanation that they have learned extensively to focus their meltas on the same point. Just shooting from the hip: "If this unit hits an enemy with a melta weapon, every other melta firing at that unit gets another +1 S and +1 AP". Maybe even let that stack.
Of course one would have to try out if that is to weak or too strong (maybe +1 to wound works better), but the general idea should come across. Sisters focussing their meltas on something and every additional melta shot hits the same spot doing more and more damage.

 Insectum7 wrote:
What a silly argument. Tyranid Warriors say hi. And there are billions of them.

I wonder if you could provide a citation proving that there are billions of Tyranid Warriors? Or even that they are more formidable than Marines man per man.

They certainly didn't look particularly formidable when Titus ripped one's head off of its shoulders with nothing but his own brute strength in the Space Marine 2 trailer.

Also, Necrons could be better individually than Marines, with access to teleportation, and still not auto-win conflicts. Because in case you forget, the Imperium has numerous fighting forces other than the Marines, such as the Guard, the Navy, the Mechanicum, the Sororitas etc. Plus, the Necrons have their own alternate conflicts that require attention.

What does that have to do with anything? There are more Necron Warriors than all of those fighting forces combined with the probable exception of the Imperial Guard. And the Necrons' tech level (particularly their teleportation tech and ability to instantly reanimate/repair fallen soldiers) means that logistically they are far superior to pretty much every other race. A species with a basic line infantry superior to literally everyone but Custodes and Knights numbering in the trillions, with logistical support far outstripping everyone combined with the best technology in the setting would make them nearly unbeatable unless their leadership was so stupid and incompetent that they couldn't leverage this insurmountable advantage against their foes. And personally I'd rather their line troops be rather chaffy but with the faction's movers and shakers be competent and threatening than for them to be a bunch of dolts led by dolts.

No idea.

Because people like you can't help but respond to nine day old posts apparently.

 Pyroalchi wrote:

On the whole "Meltas suck vs. armor"/"we don't have real anti armor capability": what I could see working pretty good without getting into this whole "If SoB Meltas get buffed, than SM Meltas should get the same stats!" mess:

Marine and Guard Melta DOES suck though. That Sisters are more reliant on it as their sole form of AT is from a potential failure in army design.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
What a silly argument. Tyranid Warriors say hi. And there are billions of them.

I wonder if you could provide a citation proving that there are billions of Tyranid Warriors? Or even that they are more formidable than Marines man per man.

They certainly didn't look particularly formidable when Titus ripped one's head off of its shoulders with nothing but his own brute strength in the Space Marine 2 trailer.

Warriors have been more powerful than marines since their introduction, and they're the "without numbers" faction. You'd have a point if we were discussing hive tyrants, probably, but warriors should ridiculously outnumber marines (especially if you adhere to the 1000 marines per chapter fluff). Which is fine, as most if the imperium's might comes from the guard anyway.

Marines are powerful *for human standards*. They don't have to be the best anyone else has to offer. They're not even the best humanity has to offer. Other factions being more powerful makes for a more interesting setting imo, but ymmv. "Humanity, feth yeah" can be fun too.

Also, after what titus did to orks and chaos in the first game I have no issues with him killing a warrior. I'm just glad the swarmlord managed to keep out of his sight.

Dang it, look at what you made me do. Now I'm off topic too

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:

On the whole "Meltas suck vs. armor"/"we don't have real anti armor capability": what I could see working pretty good without getting into this whole "If SoB Meltas get buffed, than SM Meltas should get the same stats!" mess:

Marine and Guard Melta DOES suck though. That Sisters are more reliant on it as their sole form of AT is from a potential failure in army design.

I wouldn't necessarily say Guard/Marine Meltas suck, just that they are not the anti vehicle weapon they once were. They are still nice weapons against t4-T7 stuff with good armor values, multiple wounds and/or feel no pain. Like Space Marines, Custodes, bikes, sentinels etc. So them loosing out against vehicles kind of hurts these factions less, as they have alternatives to deal with heavy vehicles.

From what I hear Sisters have not. Therefore I would too say: give them something to make Meltas work against vehicles. Changing the baseprofil is (in my opinion) not the way to go, as it would in the long run also buff IG and SM. And at least looking at IG we don't really need that.
So my proposition was along the line: give Sisters something that makes the melta effectiveness go up. And as they can have a lot of meltas, some bonus for shooting multiples at the same target sounded valid. One would just have to figure out what works.
Could also be something like "If a unit shoots meltas at a target, add the total number of Meltas to their strength value". So Retributors/Dominions with 4 Melta weapons would shoot them at S12.

Sisters are the only army where melta truly is problematic.

I hope they get a "Holy trinity" detachment that buffs their melta/flamer/bolters

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Sisters are the only army where melta truly is problematic.

I hope they get a "Holy trinity" detachment that buffs their melta/flamer/bolters

See, this SOUNDS like it would be good, until you remember that Sisters are also a melee army. A 'holy trinity' detachment helps their anemic shooting be slightly less anemic, but it doesn't help their wet noodle melee being any less wet noodle.

A detachment cannot fix an army issue. That would just lock the army into one detachment choice.

ERJAK wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Sisters are the only army where melta truly is problematic.

I hope they get a "Holy trinity" detachment that buffs their melta/flamer/bolters

See, this SOUNDS like it would be good, until you remember that Sisters are also a melee army. A 'holy trinity' detachment helps their anemic shooting be slightly less anemic, but it doesn't help their wet noodle melee being any less wet noodle.

So what? You want every aspect of an army to be good? There probably will also be a detachment that buffs melee too.


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 alextroy wrote:
A detachment cannot fix an army issue. That would just lock the army into one detachment choice.

True, but the odds are, every army is gonna have one detachment thats stronger anyway

Just watching a painful battle report with Sisters vs Necrons.

I ve noticed the main channels have avoided putting Sisters into any of the matchups apart from Death Guard and Blood Angels. Like I think they even said they went for a weaker list with less tanks.

I am not saying they’re avoiding putting the army forward to get curb stomped but sure looks like it.

Really, I’ve got other projects so can wait until they get normal rules. They need to seriously rethink the army. Bloody Rose getting plus one attack on the charge isn’t going to revolutionise the army as people keep saying.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Sisters are the only army where melta truly is problematic.

I hope they get a "Holy trinity" detachment that buffs their melta/flamer/bolters

See, this SOUNDS like it would be good, until you remember that Sisters are also a melee army. A 'holy trinity' detachment helps their anemic shooting be slightly less anemic, but it doesn't help their wet noodle melee being any less wet noodle.

So what? You want every aspect of an army to be good? There probably will also be a detachment that buffs melee too.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


So what? You want every aspect of an army to be good? There probably will also be a detachment that buffs melee too.

Imagine that, people would like for their melee units to be at least okay too.

tbh melta is one of the core rules I think ought to be reworked a bit.

Having melta increase the strength of your gun rather than the damage would allow them to function more as the intended close range anti-medium vehicle weaponry and in particular would help sisters have each squad feel like a credible threat as getting to the point where you can spike with a guaranteed high damage roll not impossible.

...they also need the ability to 20-up their basic troop squad, to make their characters make sense. Every army with fixed 10-man troop units needs that.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


So what? You want every aspect of an army to be good? There probably will also be a detachment that buffs melee too.

Imagine that, people would like for their melee units to be at least okay too.

Making a detachment that buffs melta/flamer/bolters doesnt mean the melee options are getting nerfed...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the_scotsman wrote:

...they also need the ability to 20-up their basic troop squad, to make their characters make sense. Every army with fixed 10-man troop units needs that.

Skitarii Marshal would be op /s

Pretty easy to solve melta. Just say it gets anti vehicle 4 plus within melta range.

But this is the issue. You can’t make a change like that without doing it to everybody because the melta is a common weapon.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Pretty easy to solve melta. Just say it gets anti vehicle 4 plus within melta range.

But this is the issue. You can’t make a change like that without doing it to everybody because the melta is a common weapon.

Technically they can do exactly that as weapons are datasheet based.