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 Mr Morden wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Pretty easy to solve melta. Just say it gets anti vehicle 4 plus within melta range.

But this is the issue. You can’t make a change like that without doing it to everybody because the melta is a common weapon.

Technically they can do exactly that as weapons are datasheet based.

yeah, it would make sense for Sisters' melta to be better than the rest of the meltas in the game considering its theyre only anti-tank and a huge part of their fluff

It already didn't make sense that getting your flamer from the Ministorum makes it better for some reason. It's just a fudge to try to cover over failures in faction design.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
It already didn't make sense that getting your flamer from the Ministorum makes it better for some reason. It's just a fudge to try to cover over failures in faction design.

in a universe where religion/belief has a tangible effect on the physical world, having blessed bolters/meltas/flamers makes sense that they would be better

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
It already didn't make sense that getting your flamer from the Ministorum makes it better for some reason. It's just a fudge to try to cover over failures in faction design.

in a universe where religion/belief has a tangible effect on the physical world, having blessed bolters/meltas/flamers makes sense that they would be better

Or they have special limited production runs by the Adeptus Mechanicus or using special fuels/ammunition that is more effective.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Pretty easy to solve melta. Just say it gets anti vehicle 4 plus within melta range.

But this is the issue. You can’t make a change like that without doing it to everybody because the melta is a common weapon.

Technically they can do exactly that as weapons are datasheet based.

yeah, it would make sense for Sisters' melta to be better than the rest of the meltas in the game considering its theyre only anti-tank and a huge part of their fluff

Also, our flamers and stormbolters are already better than Marine's.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
It already didn't make sense that getting your flamer from the Ministorum makes it better for some reason. It's just a fudge to try to cover over failures in faction design.

If you're making an argument about 40k that involves the words 'doesn't make sense' you've lost the plot.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the_scotsman wrote:

...they also need the ability to 20-up their basic troop squad, to make their characters make sense. Every army with fixed 10-man troop units needs that.

Skitarii Marshal would be op /s

Obviously the reason Skitarii can't have multiple Plasma Calivers or Arqs in their squads is for balance reasons.

Let's not pretend that giving Sisters bespoke Imperial standard equipment was anything else but an arbitrary decision in an no holds barred arms race edition.

a_typical_hero wrote:
Let's not pretend that giving Sisters bespoke Imperial standard equipment was anything else but an arbitrary decision in an no holds barred arms race edition.

Oh, yeah, but a fancy flamer for blood angels tanks was a total lore move.

I don't think you will find a post about me advocating for this one, either.

There are many ways to parse the Sisters have better Imperial Weapons issue.

On one hand, it is certainly an effort to make the army work without expanding their wargear options beyond the traditional Trinity and known additional weapons. An army needs to work on it's own merits regardless of what the standard rules state.

On the other hand, Sisters have always been known to be equipped with the best arms the vast wealth of the Imperial Church can buy. It is also well know that the best weapons of any type (mastercrafted) have better stats than the run of the mill versions.

So it doesn't strain background for SOB to have better bolters, flamers, and meltas than the average Imperial versions to allow them to function as an effective army in the game.

ERJAK wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:
Let's not pretend that giving Sisters bespoke Imperial standard equipment was anything else but an arbitrary decision in an no holds barred arms race edition.

Oh, yeah, but a fancy flamer for blood angels tanks was a total lore move.

What fancy flamer?

EviscerationPlague wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:
Let's not pretend that giving Sisters bespoke Imperial standard equipment was anything else but an arbitrary decision in an no holds barred arms race edition.

Oh, yeah, but a fancy flamer for blood angels tanks was a total lore move.

What fancy flamer?

I think they're talking about the Baal predator tank's flamer.

I'm fine with giving sisters "ministrorum meltas" that perform as needed for the faction not to be hosed, but do we actually need to make an exception like that? Would guard or marines be OP if their meltaguns were suddenly effective against tanks?

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the_scotsman wrote:

...they also need the ability to 20-up their basic troop squad, to make their characters make sense. Every army with fixed 10-man troop units needs that.

Skitarii Marshal would be op /s

Obviously the reason Skitarii can't have multiple Plasma Calivers or Arqs in their squads is for balance reasons.

nah, its for the cohesive look of the squad, gotta have vanguards lugging around that arquebuse to be fluffy



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
[
I think they're talking about the Baal predator tank's flamer.

I'm fine with giving sisters "ministrorum meltas" that perform as needed for the faction not to be hosed, but do we actually need to make an exception like that? Would guard or marines be OP if their meltaguns were suddenly effective against tanks?

OP? probably not, but these factions already have plenty of effective anti-tank. The whole point of making every datasheet unrelated to the rest is so you can do stuff like buff a specific version of a gun without doing sweeping changed to the whole game.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:
Let's not pretend that giving Sisters bespoke Imperial standard equipment was anything else but an arbitrary decision in an no holds barred arms race edition.

Oh, yeah, but a fancy flamer for blood angels tanks was a total lore move.

What fancy flamer?

I think they're talking about the Baal predator tank's flamer.

Isn't it just a TL Heavy Flamer? Or is it an attached one from the LR Redeemer?

Honestly, I see 3 major issues with Sisters.

- Meltas suck. Though this affects all armies with them, but more-so for Sisters as they rely on them. Meltas either need to move to S10 base or have the melta rule changed to add both strength and damage at half range.

- Their leaders are too expensive and too limited in which units they can join. Simple fix, point drops and expand the list of units they can attach to.

- They're an infantry focused faction with no ability to horde. Novitiate's at minimum should be allowed in squads of 20, potentially Battle Sisters as well.

My input here is based entirely on what I've read here and not from any experience of playing sisters, so please shut me down if I'm talking rubbish.

Without giving them a new detachment rule, Sisters could probably get away with having their meltas gain +2 S while in melta range. Fancy meltas and all that noise.

Or they could have a blanket "Fire and Fury" rule where their flamers and meltas gain twin linked if the target has already been hit by a flamer or melta from another squad. The bonuses to wound here would probably be fine as it still relies on "tracer fire" from a first unit.

Jarms48 wrote:
Honestly, I see 3 major issues with Sisters.

- Meltas suck. Though this affects all armies with them, but more-so for Sisters as they rely on them. Meltas either need to move to S10 base or have the melta rule changed to add both strength and damage at half range.

- Their leaders are too expensive and too limited in which units they can join. Simple fix, point drops and expand the list of units they can attach to.

- They're an infantry focused faction with no ability to horde. Novitiate's at minimum should be allowed in squads of 20, potentially Battle Sisters as well.

In the leaks from a few months ago, with rules that were used to initialy test 10th. Melta had the same strenght, but an anti vehicle +4 rule, somehow it was lost between the tests and final version.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the_scotsman wrote:

...they also need the ability to 20-up their basic troop squad, to make their characters make sense. Every army with fixed 10-man troop units needs that.

Skitarii Marshal would be op /s

Obviously the reason Skitarii can't have multiple Plasma Calivers or Arqs in their squads is for balance reasons.

As a drukhari player I do have to point out that at least your mandatory mixed onesie-onesie squad loadout was *A LEGAL BUILD BEFORE*

so there are, in theory, somewhere, maybe, admech players with existing armies that werent fethed over by the transition. XD

There was not one single wrack or kabalite warrior squad correctly built when 10e dropped.

 the_scotsman wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the_scotsman wrote:

...they also need the ability to 20-up their basic troop squad, to make their characters make sense. Every army with fixed 10-man troop units needs that.

Skitarii Marshal would be op /s

Obviously the reason Skitarii can't have multiple Plasma Calivers or Arqs in their squads is for balance reasons.

As a drukhari player I do have to point out that at least your mandatory mixed onesie-onesie squad loadout was *A LEGAL BUILD BEFORE*

so there are, in theory, somewhere, maybe, admech players with existing armies that werent fethed over by the transition. XD

There was not one single wrack or kabalite warrior squad correctly built when 10e dropped.

If memory served me right, Kalabites were 2 Specials 1 Heavy in a 10 man Squad, correct?

EviscerationPlague wrote:
If memory served me right, Kalabites were 2 Specials 1 Heavy in a 10 man Squad, correct?

In 9th yes. Weirdly before that you had a rule where it was 1 special per unit, or 2 if you had 20 Kabalites. While Heavies were 1 per 10.

 the_scotsman wrote:

As a drukhari player I do have to point out that at least your mandatory mixed onesie-onesie squad loadout was *A LEGAL BUILD BEFORE*

so there are, in theory, somewhere, maybe, admech players with existing armies that werent fethed over by the transition. XD

There was not one single wrack or kabalite warrior squad correctly built when 10e dropped.

i'll be honest, i'm a drukhari player and i only skimmed the index, it seems soooo boring so i didnt go into the minutia of it. Then i started seeing that its "DarkLance : the index" and got even more put off.

Tyel wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
If memory served me right, Kalabites were 2 Specials 1 Heavy in a 10 man Squad, correct?

In 9th yes. Weirdly before that you had a rule where it was 1 special per unit, or 2 if you had 20 Kabalites. While Heavies were 1 per 10.

Shame, but I guess we're all WAAC players that go against the Jervis vision since we don't like rolling 5 different weapons for shooting in a single squad.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


OP? probably not, but these factions already have plenty of effective anti-tank. The whole point of making every datasheet unrelated to the rest is so you can do stuff like buff a specific version of a gun without doing sweeping changed to the whole game.

True. But if the notion of having meltas and better-meltas was really jarring for people, we could hypothetically probably give everyone the better-meltas without breaking anything, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

As a drukhari player I do have to point out that at least your mandatory mixed onesie-onesie squad loadout was *A LEGAL BUILD BEFORE*

so there are, in theory, somewhere, maybe, admech players with existing armies that werent fethed over by the transition. XD

There was not one single wrack or kabalite warrior squad correctly built when 10e dropped.

i'll be honest, i'm a drukhari player and i only skimmed the index, it seems soooo boring so i didnt go into the minutia of it. Then i started seeing that its "DarkLance : the index" and got even more put off.

Also a drukhari player here. There's some nice stuff in there aside from dark lance spam. Pain tokens are neat. Scourges finally having move-shoot-move is neat. Heat lances are finally good.

It's just that the changes to poison and to vehicles overall mean that whatever else you're doing, you kind of have to spam dark lances to avoid being completely impotent against non-infantry enemies. And whatever upsides the index has are kind of drowned out by continued loss of unit customization, super restrictive character/squad combos (you can't have an archon hang out with his traditional bodyguard unit of incubi or a haemonculus hang out with his grotesques), and a bunch of other annoying little changes. Plus some editions-old oversights like archons not being able to buff units while in their transports despite warriors really not wanting to leave their transports.

Karol wrote:

Jarms48 wrote:
Honestly, I see 3 major issues with Sisters.

- Meltas suck. Though this affects all armies with them, but more-so for Sisters as they rely on them. Meltas either need to move to S10 base or have the melta rule changed to add both strength and damage at half range.

- Their leaders are too expensive and too limited in which units they can join. Simple fix, point drops and expand the list of units they can attach to.

- They're an infantry focused faction with no ability to horde. Novitiate's at minimum should be allowed in squads of 20, potentially Battle Sisters as well.

In the leaks from a few months ago, with rules that were used to initialy test 10th. Melta had the same strenght, but an anti vehicle +4 rule, somehow it was lost between the tests and final version.

I'm not going to lie, Im fine with melta wounding things on 5's versus heavier targets. It's a gun brought in bulk and I enjoy not having centre piece models just instantly dunked like in 9th leading to obscene rules (My entire 9th daemon book, 3++++ saves?!)

Tanks aren’t centrepiece models. They’re inexpensive and you can take an army of them.

Meltaguns shouldn’t be chipping away at vehicles. It’s an extremely short range gun that means you have to cross the board and get point blank to fire it. The risk reward isn’t present. You probably are only to get one shot in the game before the enemy army deletes you. Other anti tank guns can shoot you safely across the board and are better because reasons.

Sisters are too expensive points wise to bring the volume of melta so that you don’t care if your squads are killed.

They aren’t tough enough to survive any kind of firepower or counter charge. They only worked in previous editions because of their high damage output to kill them before you got targeted.

Either Sisters get buffed or they go down in points and become a horde army. It’s pretty clear cut.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Tanks aren’t centrepiece models. They’re inexpensive and you can take an army of them.

Meltaguns shouldn’t be chipping away at vehicles. It’s an extremely short range gun that means you have to cross the board and get point blank to fire it. The risk reward isn’t present. You probably are only to get one shot in the game before the enemy army deletes you. Other anti tank guns can shoot you safely across the board and are better because reasons.

Sisters are too expensive points wise to bring the volume of melta so that you don’t care if your squads are killed.

They aren’t tough enough to survive any kind of firepower or counter charge. They only worked in previous editions because of their high damage output to kill them before you got targeted.

Either Sisters get buffed or they go down in points and become a horde army. It’s pretty clear cut.

12" isnt "extremely short range" IMO

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Either Sisters get buffed or they go down in points and become a horde army. It’s pretty clear cut.

Sisters are close enough in points to be a horde army, so maybe it should just be committed to.

As Stu mentions, the Studio are watching these results – and in particular the win-rate percentages – very carefully, and will be looking to make more targeted changes where necessary. The change to Aeldari Fate dice has already made an impact, as have points increases for overperforming units. Underperforming factions are definitely on the list for attention soon, so watch this space.

maybe they will do something....maybe

Yeah 12 is short range. That’s the same as a pistol, it puts you in rapid fire and easy charge range. It’s a third to a quarter of your normal ranged heavy weapon. That translates into less shots across the game and putting yourself at extreme risk.

I don’t think Sisters are point costed as a horde. 110 points for a unit that can’t instantly regenerate but has a weaker profile than the games standard troops isn’t in a good position. Also the unit size limit really messes with them being a horde. They’re pretty much in the same position they’ve always been of being about 2/3 cost of a marine apart from ridiculous cases like being the same cost as Retributors being same cost as Devastator marines because reasons. They should at least be half the points of marines and probably a bit less given what other T3 armies get in terms of damage.

Again, I point at the rulebook quote on them being durable. GW clearly overvalue that armour save and assumed damage would drop evenly across all the factions.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Either Sisters get buffed or they go down in points and become a horde army. It’s pretty clear cut.

Sisters are close enough in points to be a horde army, so maybe it should just be committed to.

No army that has its core mechanic based around part of it being dead. should be "close" to horde. GSC are horde, IG can be horde. Orks can be horde. SoB are not horde and neither are Votan. And the win rates show, that crucial errors have been done during the construction of index for both of those armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

As Stu mentions, the Studio are watching these results – and in particular the win-rate percentages – very carefully, and will be looking to make more targeted changes where necessary. The change to Aeldari Fate dice has already made an impact, as have points increases for overperforming units. Underperforming factions are definitely on the list for attention soon, so watch this space.

maybe they will do something....maybe

Dropping from 80% win rate to top 3 army, isn't much of a nerf. Especialy for armies with around or under 30% win rates.