Our Codex is da biggest an da best! - Orks 10th Edition Tactics

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**Jidmah**

flaming tadpole wrote:
I feel like reserve is kind of a bad idea with ghaz. If you get first turn your in a bit of a pickle because you can’t rapid ingress in until bottom of 2 which is 90% of the time the turn your waaaghing so you lose the main reason for taking ghaz, which is makari lethals. Assuming your playing on a standard terrain setup there shouldn’t be much trouble keeping him and his squad relatively safe for a turn unless your playing eldar with a knight, but even then a lot of players and tourneys are changing ruins to be completely los blocking.

Yeah, the Waaagh! clashes with how you want to run Thrakka, which kind of is the reason why he is so difficult to get good value out of.

As for hiding his unit... I wouldn't say my tables are easy to shoot across, but keeping him safe during T2 has proven extremely difficult for me. Best case it's just all the MANz that died, meaning he loses +1 to wound and devastating wounds, making him a rather mediocre combatant. I've also had issues with people using rapid ingress themselves to put deep strikers in his path.

Delivering him by battlewagon has somewhat worked in my battlewagon bash list (3 wagons with Thrakka, burnas, flash gitz), but that is not a list which can take on highly competitive opponents.

**Tollwut**

Last sunday i joined a small local 1k points tournament and managed to place 3rd/14 players, super hyped about that!

I posted the list here before, but for completionist sake:

Spoiler:

Only custodes were a major roadblock, overcommitted and got krumped hard without dealing any meaningful and lasting damage. Oh well.

Now i am thinking about how to scale that force up to 2k. This is what i came up with:

Spoiler:

MANz+BigMek chilling in the Naut to be a decent-ish krumpin-pinata, weirdboys+boys being glorified stormboys...
Just wondering what the consensus on MANz is? I see a lot of people running PK/Saw, but i wonder how often i will really use the saws, so might as well use the guns for some minor shooting chip damage...?

**Forceride**

Tollwut wrote:

MANz+BigMek chilling in the Naut to be a decent-ish krumpin-pinata, weirdboys+boys being glorified stormboys...
Just wondering what the consensus on MANz is? I see a lot of people running PK/Saw, but i wonder how often i will really use the saws, so might as well use the guns for some minor shooting chip damage...?

They are, one way missile, either use Thraka with something like 5 or 3 to give him extra wounds, or boss in mega armour with something like 3, Big mek would be good versus shooting armies placing him as a centre piece to eat ranged fire from other things.

Yes use claw/saw, the reason is simple, their worst versions of nobz when picking the claw(less bodies, less attacks), but they have the flexibility to threaten anything T10. So you use them in a way where, if it is Ghaz, walk his way up the board directly to the unit you can't deal with with normal claws. If taken in 3 and with boss in mega armour, pack them in the truck and does the same thing. Your mileage will vary with them, because the things they want to engage with, will, most of the time, kill them, so be ready to use either interrupt or fight on death just for them.

I am having success that way. It makes for a second line threat for my opponent in case it throw's something I can't deal with (I generally keep them behind main line in wait). While they die easily, they more then pay for their cost since the things they go after, cost more then they, making them efficient investment.

None the less you should have other options in hand in case they fail, and beast boss on foot comes to mind for that. The boyz can bog down vehicles and the boss pretty much deals with them. Mine did 12MW last game.
So, i don't see them as a centre piece unit like flash gitz, but one of your tools to deal with maybe a character/vehicle/monster normal claws or beast boss won't cut it.

Their expandable at 3 + boss in mega armour, costing around the same as mozrog. They pay in durability by being able to cause more damage. Not sure which one is better since with how swing mozrog (bite hit's on 3 and the bite is his main DPS, his chopa hit's on 2 and rarely connects on the save due to low AP) I might try him again but i am still miffed by the way he fails. Meanwhile my beast boss on squig ate a swarmlord in one go with 14 MW.

**Jidmah**

Yeah, I've also switched to PK/KS. The kustom shoota has next to no chance to ever do anything, the flexibility to switch to the optimal weapon against your target outweighs the odd mortal wound every other game by far.

Someone did the math a couple of pages back, feel free to read up on when to use which weapon.

**Grimskul**

The Kustom Shoota just has too little shooting to hit consistently with our low BS and the weapon itself is on a body that basically wants to be always advancing if possible, so you'll never have a chance to shoot it before getting stuck in most circumstances. GW really dropped the ball just making it a copy of the combi weapons that Imperials have.

It's really a missed opportunity because having the previous profile of Kombi-Skorchas and Kombi-Rokkits would be a lot better now that all the weapons options are free.

**flaming tadpole**

I only ever run dual saws. I just use the damage spreadsheet from that one comp player on YouTube but according to that pks are only better than dual saws against T3/T4 (and T5 for the waaagh turn). Personally I don’t really think it’s worth the damage loss against the things that we struggle to kill to just be a little better against things anything in our army can kill but ymmv.

**the_scotsman**

Yeah, I absolutely think the only reason people don't run dual saws is just *the idea* of "only 2 attacks", rather than the objective reality of what a unit of meganobz actually does against various targets.

A fire prism has only 2 attacks. How unreliable! (/s)

**Jidmah**

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, I absolutely think the only reason people don't run dual saws is just *the idea* of "only 2 attacks", rather than the objective reality of what a unit of meganobz actually does against various targets.

A fire prism has only 2 attacks. How unreliable! (/s)

The objective reality is that, despite having better or similar averages, a unit of 5 MANz with dual saws will struggle to fight through a unit trying to tarpit/moveblock them and come out worse against various defense mechanisms and debuffs like -1 to hit, -1 damage or auto-passing saves.

Another objective reality is that a fire prism is free to pick whatever target it can see (or not), while MANz cannot. You will find yourself fighting sub-optimal targets eventually.

Picking raw power is just as much a valid decision as is picking flexibility. Especially considering that the PK is better against some of the most common profiles in the game, and that it is perfectly possible to face an army where the extra power never matters.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Found Ted's posts doing the math for MANz when running around with Thrakka:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/540/810314.page#11566841

Essentially dual KS outside of the Waagh! don't provide any advantage over the PK unless the target is T9-11. During the Waaagh! the Killsaw becomes better against T12 as well, but the math is discounting devastating wounds.

A PK generates .7666 MW during the Waaagh! turn, dual killsaws generate less than half of that against a target the wound on 3s and go up to roughly .4753 if you re-roll everything that is not a devastating wound for some reason.

Unless I'm missing something, even with the Waaagh! active and Thrakka being there to buff the mob, the difference between 5 MANz with dual killsaws and 5 MANz with PK/KS amounts to a single unsaved wound against hard targets.

**flaming tadpole**

With ghaz manz are wounding everything not T13/14 on 2’s which means there’s no reason not to full reroll to fish for mortals which should equate out to 50% more mw than pk’s unless my math is way off.

I ageee there isn’t a massive difference in damage in either direction, but it’s enough of a difference into big things that I think it’s worth it. Other than maybe a 20 man WE jackal squad getting 4++ from dp and 5+++ from blood tithe I can’t really think of any real tarpit threat that will survive 2 fight phases vs ghaz and manz, but I also haven’t seen anyone in my games or streams I watch try and tarpit that unit probably because they don’t realize they aren’t as killy as past editions.

**Beardedragon**

I have not run MANZ with anyone but Ghaz, and i always ran Powerklaw/Killsaw, since killsaws would wound basically anything on 2s anyway, I didnt really need the rerolls to wounds that twin linked provides.

Furthermore the pure flexibility of thus being able to use the powerklaw, which is better imo, against most targets, especially with +1 to wound, just made me use powerklaws a lot more than kill saws.

So at least if you run them with ghaz, you should definitely get powerklaw/Killsaw loadout, not double killsaws and not powerklaw/Pistol.

Without Ghaz though, i have no idea.

**TedNugent**

Beardedragon wrote:
I have not run MANZ with anyone but Ghaz, and i always ran Powerklaw/Killsaw, since killsaws would wound basically anything on 2s anyway, I didnt really need the rerolls to wounds that twin linked provides.

Furthermore the pure flexibility of thus being able to use the powerklaw, which is better imo, against most targets, especially with +1 to wound, just made me use powerklaws a lot more than kill saws.

So at least if you run them with ghaz, you should definitely get powerklaw/Killsaw loadout, not double killsaws and not powerklaw/Pistol.

Without Ghaz though, i have no idea.

Actually, what Jidmah linked was my math about exactly this, powerklaw/killsaw combo, which really isn't as versatile as you think it is. I ran the math for Ghaz and without Ghaz.

If you're going to run killsaws, run twin-linked. It's always going to be better than one killsaw, and is better against some targets than PK. There are very few instances in which a single Killsaw is better than the PK, to the point where you might as well either take the shoota or the twin-linked instead for the same price. Even if you take PK/saw, you need to read that math because it will show you even against high T, there are many cases where the PK is still better than the single killsaw. You should only use the one killsaw in cases where the math favors it over the PK.

**Lootloader**

Hey everyone, I was wondering if someone better at the math hammer side of life could do me a solid and let me know what the expected outcome is for Nobz with Power Klaws vs Nobz with Big Choppas, both with a warboss attached to the unit.

Obviously the durability is exactly the same, and my gut says the Big Choppas are better against T3 infantry (not that we struggle killing that anyway). I’m really wondering though whether the big choppas are more efficient on a waaagh round against T4 infantry, since they’ll still be wounding on 2s, but have a worse AP? Also, what about against T11+? Both the BC and the PK will be wounding on 5s, but the BC will be hitting on 2s, (but worse AP).

I’m sure it’s matchup dependent, but I feel like perhaps the Big Choppas have some niche that might be unexpected? Or at least I hope they will since I have a squad modeled that way…

**Grimskul**

Lootloader wrote:
Hey everyone, I was wondering if someone better at the math hammer side of life could do me a solid and let me know what the expected outcome is for Nobz with Power Klaws vs Nobz with Big Choppas, both with a warboss attached to the unit.

Obviously the durability is exactly the same, and my gut says the Big Choppas are better against T3 infantry (not that we struggle killing that anyway). I’m really wondering though whether the big choppas are more efficient on a waaagh round against T4 infantry, since they’ll still be wounding on 2s, but have a worse AP? Also, what about against T11+? Both the BC and the PK will be wounding on 5s, but the BC will be hitting on 2s, (but worse AP).

I’m sure it’s matchup dependent, but I feel like perhaps the Big Choppas have some niche that might be unexpected? Or at least I hope they will since I have a squad modeled that way…

If I recall correctly, Power Klawz will almost always be better than Big Choppas, especially with a Warboss attached, because the extra AP and strength means you are better against pretty much all targets, including T3 infantry, since both have the same number of attacks baseline and the +1 to hit from the Warboss is much more meaningful for Power Klaws. That AP-2 can make a big difference because even basic infantry like Eldar Guardians with their 4+ save can save 1/3 of the time from AP-1 big choppas, but only saves on 6's against Power Klaws while also getting past 5+ saves entirely. This gets even more pronounced against T11+ units, because they almost always invariably have a 3+ save or better, where the -1 from big choppas is even more of a liability for you. Unfortunately, with both effectively being the same price and interchangeable in the unit it sort of makes the Big Choppa almost pointless to bring unless you're WYSIWYG'ing in a tourney.

**tneva82**

Lootloader wrote:
Hey everyone, I was wondering if someone better at the math hammer side of life could do me a solid and let me know what the expected outcome is for Nobz with Power Klaws vs Nobz with Big Choppas, both with a warboss attached to the unit.

Obviously the durability is exactly the same, and my gut says the Big Choppas are better against T3 infantry (not that we struggle killing that anyway). I’m really wondering though whether the big choppas are more efficient on a waaagh round against T4 infantry, since they’ll still be wounding on 2s, but have a worse AP? Also, what about against T11+? Both the BC and the PK will be wounding on 5s, but the BC will be hitting on 2s, (but worse AP).

I’m sure it’s matchup dependent, but I feel like perhaps the Big Choppas have some niche that might be unexpected? Or at least I hope they will since I have a squad modeled that way…

Against t4 3+ save 2w, warboss, waagh 1 big choppa nob kills 1.38. Pk 1.48

4+ even. 5+ big choppa better.

So...in short big choppa is slightly worse all the time. Though differenc is 3+ save 10 nobs killing 1 marine more(while killing entire unit in one go without extra casualty). So vs reqular infantry profiles difference isn't going to be noticable. Comes more into play when you are facing stuff you aren't going to 1 shot with ease.

Of course non-waagh turn favours pk more.

**the_scotsman**

TedNugent wrote:
Beardedragon wrote:
I have not run MANZ with anyone but Ghaz, and i always ran Powerklaw/Killsaw, since killsaws would wound basically anything on 2s anyway, I didnt really need the rerolls to wounds that twin linked provides.

Furthermore the pure flexibility of thus being able to use the powerklaw, which is better imo, against most targets, especially with +1 to wound, just made me use powerklaws a lot more than kill saws.

So at least if you run them with ghaz, you should definitely get powerklaw/Killsaw loadout, not double killsaws and not powerklaw/Pistol.

Without Ghaz though, i have no idea.

Actually, what Jidmah linked was my math about exactly this, powerklaw/killsaw combo, which really isn't as versatile as you think it is. I ran the math for Ghaz and without Ghaz.

If you're going to run killsaws, run twin-linked. It's always going to be better than one killsaw, and is better against some targets than PK. There are very few instances in which a single Killsaw is better than the PK, to the point where you might as well either take the shoota or the twin-linked instead for the same price. Even if you take PK/saw, you need to read that math because it will show you even against high T, there are many cases where the PK is still better than the single killsaw. You should only use the one killsaw in cases where the math favors it over the PK.

I'm pretty much in agreement when it relates to Ghazghkull, what I don't really get is why I'd ever want to run Ghazghkull generally. He can't be given the speed boost enhancement, he precludes me from bringing a transport, among our strongest categories of unit for keeping my important units on the table, he's expensive and results in huge overkill versus many targets while not preventing the unit from being bogged down by chaff squads or cleared out by anti-elite weaponry. Just in general among the 3 leader options for manz I'd pick Ghazghkull last.

I think there might be a potential place to look at Ghazkhull+2 Manz if his transport capacity special rule for battlewagons actually worked as it appears to be intended to work (i.e., allowing him+2 attached Manz to embark using the full TC of 22) but the fact that Makari exists as a model in the unit makes that pointless.

**Jidmah**

Technically, Makari also has the Ghazkhull Thrakka Keyword, meaning his unit would actually require 36 slots to transport if the number would be per model.

That said, unlike for all other transport options, it doesn't actually say Ghazgkhull Thrakka models. So it's perfectly fair to assume that it's actually models for the whole datasheet and not just for the big guy. Especially considering that any other interpretation would make it impossible to transport Thrakka as long as Makari is alive.

**LunarSol**

They should really just make it a special call out like Deathwatch have on the Corvus for Kill Teams.

**TedNugent**

Lootloader wrote:
Hey everyone, I was wondering if someone better at the math hammer side of life could do me a solid and let me know what the expected outcome is for Nobz with Power Klaws vs Nobz with Big Choppas, both with a warboss attached to the unit.

Obviously the durability is exactly the same, and my gut says the Big Choppas are better against T3 infantry (not that we struggle killing that anyway). I’m really wondering though whether the big choppas are more efficient on a waaagh round against T4 infantry, since they’ll still be wounding on 2s, but have a worse AP? Also, what about against T11+? Both the BC and the PK will be wounding on 5s, but the BC will be hitting on 2s, (but worse AP).

I’m sure it’s matchup dependent, but I feel like perhaps the Big Choppas have some niche that might be unexpected? Or at least I hope they will since I have a squad modeled that way…

I don't have the math in front of me, but in every single case, power klaw power klaw power klaw.

**Vineheart01**

yeah bigchoppas are worse in every way to pk. The extra hit chance is massively outweighed by the ap and strength difference.
Only reason ive been using bigchoppas is i already have plenty with bigchoppas and dont feel like making a new squad with pk

**Jidmah**

Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah bigchoppas are worse in every way to pk. The extra hit chance is massively outweighed by the ap and strength difference.
Only reason ive been using bigchoppas is i already have plenty with bigchoppas and dont feel like making a new squad with pk

Same. I only use 2BC/3PK for aesthetics and remove the BC first as casualties. So far it neither had a positive nor negative impact on the unit's performance.

**Beardedragon**

Went to a small local tourney with a 6 trukk list, with beastboss on squig (kill choppa), mozzie, 10 nobz w warboss (follow me ladz), 10 flash gitz w. badrukk, a lone weirdboy (supa-cybork) for actions, 2x5 stormboys, 4x10 beast snagga boys and 2x10 grots.

I lost 1 battle and won 2, netting me the second place.

First battle against genestealers, i lost with 7 points (he became the victor of the tournament). I have tried genestealers once before in 10th, and like twice in 9th, so i was really confused about what to do and what happened.

Battle 2 against salemanders which i won. Why he played salemanders i dont know. He cant shoot far, and didnt use any vehicles, really just a.. terrible list honestly. Just moved up my trukks without any care in the world, lost 1 trukk and 10 boys turn 1.

Turn 2 i had bodied 70% of his army.

Battle 3 was against Eldar and a wraith knight. Surprisingly i won that battle, which i did not expect. Because they are over tuned to hell and i have not fought Eldar in 10th. Anyway, the small ruins were tall enough to just barely keep my trukks out of line of sight, so i had decent cover for my trukks. I did not get turn 1 but i was essentially 100% in cover. and the Wraithknight couldnt shoot any trukks turn 1.

Waaagh'ed round 2 i believe and failed a catastrophic 7 inch charge with my Nobz unit against his wraith guardians. is that what they are called? The devastating wound cannon wraith constructs thingies with 3 wounds each.

Anyway my Nobz ended up just soaking up a bunch of firepower, as well as my beastboss and mozrog. Beastboss on squig even tanked an entire shooting turn of a wraith knight even without Ard as Nails and didnt die. That was pretty damn nice to look at.

Anyway the incarn kept flying around causing mayhem and had the game gone on longer than round 5 i would be bodied. But i held on and won.

So yay.

**flaming tadpole**

Grats dude, show those dumb little elf boys whose boss.

**Beardedragon**

AP-1 on beastboss on squig and mozzie is really sad though. Even though they are anti vehicle units, the enemy will save on 3-s and 4s. So their damage can be really swingy which is a bit sad.

I really dont see why they shouldnt retain AP-2 on their main weapons

**The Red Hobbit**

What are everyone's thoughts on Burna Boyz? Would it be fun to load them into trukks and/or battlewagons and go burning up the board? Or simply too expensive to be worthwhile?

**flaming tadpole**

They’d be great if they were the same price as last edition. Right now I think they’re one of the few units in our army that isn’t good or trash, just kinda meh. Hard to justify spending 4.5 ppm more than a boy for something with worse OC but better at clearing chaff which is the one thing we don’t really need any help with.

**Afrodactyl**

The Red Hobbit wrote:
What are everyone's thoughts on Burna Boyz? Would it be fun to load them into trukks and/or battlewagons and go burning up the board? Or simply too expensive to be worthwhile?

Some people rate them, I personally don't when you look at the other options we have

They're good in that they're pretty cheap and you can take a unit of five to park on an objective (if you didn't want to use Grots for that role), and they kill chaff and chaff+1 units pretty well.

The issue is that we already clear chaff really well, and we have better units for snagging objectives like stormboys, Grots, bikers, etc.

You could spend about 500 points on 3x Burna Boys and Trukks and likely never have to worry about light infantry, but so much of our units are already built to wade through light infantry anyway that it would likely be a waste.

Do they have a use? Yes, clearing chaff and burning things off of objectives.
Are they good at what they do? Yes.
Are they cost effective? Yes, 10 in a trukk is pretty cheap for what they do, and with the Trukk they're fast too.
Are they the best at what they do? Not necessarily, we have lots of units that clear light infantry exceptionally well, but they do have a niche of being a good overwatch unit.

Overall I'd say they're a high B tier/low A tier unit. They do what they do well, but there's other units that do it just as well (if not better) that also have the means to pull double duty in other roles.

Ultimately try them out. If you like how they perform and they fill a gap in your list, then keep them.

I will admit though, sticking loads of them in a Battlewagon or a Gargantuan Squiggoth and marching them up the board is good fun. Big bucket of dice make Ork brain go brrrr.

**Forceride**

So after that discussion between saw/claw vs twin saw i gave it a spin in a game. The meganobz got stuck into neurothrope i think that's the name plus his bodyguard. Well.. not impressed, going against t8 bodies, sure their ok, but i am pretty sure claws would have been better. this is what i mean when saw/claw is superior, not many things are t10 and for those that aren't claws will come on top just for clearing bodies. It gives another tool even if it's not the best. In the future i will not bring the twin, rerolls would be cool if your engaging into wounding on 5 or 4. That's where i see them being useful. Currently in my current meta max T i saw was 11. Anyway that's my 2 cents for the argument.

**the_scotsman**

Forceride wrote:
So after that discussion between saw/claw vs twin saw i gave it a spin in a game. The meganobz got stuck into neurothrope i think that's the name plus his bodyguard. Well.. not impressed, going against t8 bodies, sure their ok, but i am pretty sure claws would have been better. this is what i mean when saw/claw is superior, not many things are t10 and for those that aren't claws will come on top just for clearing bodies. It gives another tool even if it's not the best. In the future i will not bring the twin, rerolls would be cool if your engaging into wounding on 5 or 4. That's where i see them being useful. Currently in my current meta max T i saw was 11. Anyway that's my 2 cents for the argument.

TBH I think i was talking past people in that discussion.

I didnt realize people were talking specifically about the MANz joined by Ghazghkull, which is, honestly, a thing I've never actually tried doing in 10e (fielding Ghaz).

in that instance the math is super clear, saw/klaw is best, tbh you might even consider klaw+gun but the guns are just so impossibly gakky its probably worth the small edge case instance where sawz are better.

the +1 to wound bumps the saw's usefulness down hugely. I've only run manz with megaboss and megamek, and so I've preferred the sawz and just using a trukk to deliver them to the sort of targets i need them to fight (big tough stuff, as in, stuff saws are good at)

**JohnU**

Orks put on a decent show in this last batch of GTs, including an undefeated list with 3x4 Grot Tanks.
https://www.tabletoparchive.com/blog/lenny-craft-it-wednesdays-winning-40k-lists-is-the-update-there-yet

**ccs**

JohnU wrote:
Orks put on a decent show in this last batch of GTs, including an undefeated list with 3x4 Grot Tanks.
https://www.tabletoparchive.com/blog/lenny-craft-it-wednesdays-winning-40k-lists-is-the-update-there-yet

See, I keep telling ork players that Grot Tanks are a worthwhile investment....