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 Jidmah wrote:
Can confirm what Forceride and Beardedragon wrote. Whether your opponent rolls good or bad, orks will continuedly bleed wounds over the course of the game, even a complete and utter defeat of your opponent will leave you with heaps of dead models by turn 5. If you overestimate your unit's killing power or just roll badly, you weaken or lose an important part of your army, which pairs with the swingy nature of low BS and AP. Sometimes and entire shooting phase whiffs and you need to plan for that. It's also worth noting that orks tend to have much less tools and tricks available to them that armies like tau, eldar or marines do. The ork toolbox ist mostly just above average statlines which get elevated to great stats during the Waaagh! Most of the game plan is to make sure that the right statline is in the right place at the right time.

I've currently switched to my DG army and once again, it feels like going into easy mode, and not just because of their insane power level right now. Sometimes enemy shooting just bounces off my units and does nothing, and I'm more or less guaranteed that pointing the right weapons at the right targets will cause some damage. That simply doesn't happen when playing orks.

I ran into this myself last night. Funny enough, against Death Guard. Nothing the orks had could hit hard enough to do any real damage to stop all the T9 models with 10+ wounds. I was aghast at just how ineffective powerclaws have become. The deathguard auras, free mortal wounds, and an insane number of keyword type weaponry just overwhelmed our greater (yet somehow performance muddled) numbers.

The fight wasn't even close, and even after a full night of replaying the game in my head, I can't think that there was any chance to have won... draw maybe, but no chance of winning.

When talking about T9 hulls, you are most likely referring to drones and MBH. Yes, those are busted, I don't think orks currently have a fighting chance against an optimized DG list.

But DG definitely have a huge nerf incoming the next time GW does any balancing update, so don't worry too much.

What I was referring to wasn't their current power level though. It's more the effect of units sometimes just ending up unharmed despite being shot by a somewhat decent weapon, while being able to just kill a unit or two per turn without trading the shooting unit. Orks can't do either.

 Jidmah wrote:

But DG definitely have a huge nerf incoming the next time GW does any balancing update, so don't worry too much.

Just wait another 3 months.... thats great advice for people who don't play the game/don't play very often.
And that assumes the DG actually get nerfed.

How about in the here & now though?

ccs wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

But DG definitely have a huge nerf incoming the next time GW does any balancing update, so don't worry too much.

Just wait another 3 months.... thats great advice for people who don't play the game/don't play very often.
And that assumes the DG actually get nerfed.

How about in the here & now though?

Yes, GW totally should knee-jerk nerf codices immediately when people start complaining about `them without gathering any actually data.

They also should totally update balancing four times a week so people who don't play very often never experience the same game twice.



Do you even read your own posts before sending them? I assume that there will be an update in the next one or two weeks.


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As for the here and now, I have explained multiple times why I can't see a way for orks to counter them, especially not with the recent point hikes taking them even further apart.

DG naturally counter anything that gets too close, on top of that orks struggle to kill the exact units which are far to cheap for what they do and thus appear in droves in DG lists. The killing blow for orks is that due to being too cheap, DG can bring so much ranged firepower that they can easily eliminate the few units which could actually threaten them without risk. You could cut 250 points from a good DG a list and they would still have a decent chance at winning against orks.

If you have found a miracle cure, feel free to share. I'm out of ideas, and not for the lack of trying. Except if it's grot tanks. Then I don't care.

Its not just against death guard though. A unit of 3 meganobs being lead by a warboss cant even reliable take down a main battle tank even on the waaagh. They would struggle against our own battlewagons, and I don't even want to think how they would deal with Knights.

And that is a Warboss with what is traditionally our heaviest hitting gitz.

Something just feels off all around in Ork-land and its not the lack of the 2nd edition hair squig.

MANz aren't supposed to take down battle tanks though. Most terminator units from other armies can't do that either since thunder hammers were nerfed.

Their job is more or less to be difficult to kill when you aim the wrong weapons at them, while being barely strong enough to take objectives from other infantry units. They either hold objectives in the middle or start fights with units that can't hurt them reliably and wither them down through attrition.

If you are looking for close combat vehicle killers, that would be nobz or breaka boyz.

It's a departure from previous design paradigms, but finally solved the issue of MANz and Nobz stepping on each other's toes for the same role.

Compared to most other terminators, MANz aren't that bad. Many flavors of marines don't have any good leaders and/or don't have good abilities. Meanwhile we have 3 decent ones, and their ability is still useful despite its nerf. My only gripe is that they should absolutely roll back the combi weapon change. That profile has no business representing a rokkit/skorcha weapon.


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I recently heard this in a not ork specific strategy guide about stratagems:

The, by far, most important skill in 10th edition is to know how much damage a unit will do against any type of target.

And I agree. This skill dictates your deployment, movement, strategy and which stratagems you use when. It's also the most common cause for casual player losing against me.
It's twice as important for orks, be cause we don't get second chances when we attack the wrong target, and your opponent usually doesn't have to worry about how well their weapons do against ork defensive profiles.

While i agree it reminds me of last game. Math was going out of the window... from marines shooting in ideal conditions taking only 1 model, to my pistols doing actual dame to deathwing knights, a double snake eyes on a hero claiming him with a pet squig from warboss, ghaz wiffing almost all attacks in 2+hit/2+w/4+S for 6 attacks. Unfreaking believable. We even had a vindi blow up causing damage to friends while 6fnp it like a bandit. Some days the dice just don't agree with anyone.

I agree, we're way too swingy a faction to start relying on maths and averages I've had a foot beastboss tank a full round of shooting from a Drukhari list and then the next game he and his unit got mulched in a single round by a bunch of wyches.

I also agree with Jidmah about MANz, they're a brick that grinds its way through the midboard and occasionally does damage to a hard target.

Yeah, the days of the MANZ missile is far gone sadly. Used to be they were the more efficient delivery unit to bring pocket-sized PK damage compared to regular nobz who were a points sink investment on being a deathstar unit. Regular nobz ended up being paradoxically more resilient at least back in 5th/6th when they had the weird wound allocation rules to let them spread damage around and for Nob Bikerz variants in particular later on to dodge the S8 instant death, especially with the painboy thrown in to give them cybork bodies and FNP to deal with power weapons and regular attacks.

I do miss the old bully boyz formation giving WS5 and fearless to MANZ, but now they're definitely more of an anvil unit. Would personally like their rules to provide more resiliency beyond a WAAAGH! turn (not sure if it should be an invuln, but having 4W a pop or some kind of damage mitigation would be nice, but the Bully Boyz detachment kinda skews how effective the rules would be since having anything on top of a 5+ FNP for 2 turns would probably break the game again and receive a swift nerfing from GW.

 Forceride wrote:
While i agree it reminds me of last game. Math was going out of the window... from marines shooting in ideal conditions taking only 1 model, to my pistols doing actual dame to deathwing knights, a double snake eyes on a hero claiming him with a pet squig from warboss, ghaz wiffing almost all attacks in 2+hit/2+w/4+S for 6 attacks. Unfreaking believable. We even had a vindi blow up causing damage to friends while 6fnp it like a bandit. Some days the dice just don't agree with anyone.

You can't change your luck, but you can change your odds. For example, running MANz into a vindicator and expecting them to kill it will cause to take a risk and expose them to taking a demolisher cannon to the face that will just blast through their 2+ armor. Not knowing your odds will cause you to waste overwatch or counter-attack on units which did not have a chance to wound their targets. It makes it harder to understand when you should use dead 'ard, and when the CP would be better spent of something else. It makes it harder understand when grenades or tank shock can change the outcome of a battle and when it doesn't and what unit to deploy to which flank.

Just looking at the stratagem aspect has changed my game a lot. From being out of CP all the time, I usually have 2-3 CP to spare by the end of turn 3 which I can then use to flip the game around by using a counter-attack or throwing grenades to finish off a durable unit I wouldn't be able to deal with otherwise.