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 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Besides the lackluster Kult of Speed Detachment, I don't understand why Orks aren't represented more in the top 5 placements in tournaments.

lol we have been representing the top 5 multiple times this edition.. we just get nerfed immediately anytime we do slightly to we’ll.. warhorde had massive points increases after the index for balance, bully boys and green tide were nerfed after the codex, taktical was nerf with the first dataslate, and more Dakka was emergency nerfed… there was multiple point increases as well to good units.. the only buffs we really got this edition was waaagh in command phase.. and new releases such as tankbustas and new detachments to keep orks competitive. To be fair orks had a good index detachment and a good codex and 2 good new detachments on release. We are still a good codex even if a few things have been slightly over nerfed. Most of which wasn’t really warranted like taktical which had a lifetime 56% winrate when it was triple nerfed.

Taktical is fine to play even with the nerfs though.

Yeah, that is why I play War Horde all the time + the rules are stabile for a very long time. I ' m a simple ork…

https://www.goonhammer.com/start-competing-the-six-best-40k-detachments-for-beginners/

 Tomsug wrote:
Yeah, that is why I play War Horde all the time + the rules are stabile for a very long time. I ' m a simple ork…

https://www.goonhammer.com/start-competing-the-six-best-40k-detachments-for-beginners/

lol what.

Tyranids invasion fleet is an honorable mention yet War horde is on a second place? As a person who only plays orks and tyranids, Invasion Fleet is way easier to play than orks warhorde because Tyranids has super durable models that can actually avoid dying on objectives where orks cannot. Invasion fleet also has great stratagems that are super universal.

Its way harder to play orks war horde than it is to play Tyranids invasion fleet.

That or i just understand a lot more how to play tyranids.. which i guess is also plausible.

Well, they explained their criteria in the beginning, and they aren't wrong. If you are new and you decided to go with ork, Warhorde is the detachment to go with, irrespective of what units you are running.

Beardedragon wrote:

 Tomsug wrote:
Yeah, that is why I play War Horde all the time + the rules are stabile for a very long time. I ' m a simple ork…

https://www.goonhammer.com/start-competing-the-six-best-40k-detachments-for-beginners/

lol what.

Tyranids invasion fleet is an honorable mention yet War horde is on a second place? As a person who only plays orks and tyranids, Invasion Fleet is way easier to play than orks warhorde because Tyranids has super durable models that can actually avoid dying on objectives where orks cannot. Invasion fleet also has great stratagems that are super universal.

Its way harder to play orks war horde than it is to play Tyranids invasion fleet.

That or i just understand a lot more how to play tyranids.. which i guess is also plausible.

I am not sure what metric you consider durable..

I think we have a lot durable cheap stuff.

Killrig comes to mind... I think our best tools to be durable are generally in the rules like boyz in green tide or their just damn expensive like squig hoggs.

I have yet to acquire any breaka boys at all, but how do they compare to Nobz? Do they overlap in roles and if yes, who is most efficient? Do you prefer one over the other?

At first glance its sad they dont have nob keyword to fit in to bully boyz, given they have a nobz defensive profile.

But yea i dont have the models yet, so i have not tried them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Forceride wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

 Tomsug wrote:
Yeah, that is why I play War Horde all the time + the rules are stabile for a very long time. I ' m a simple ork…

https://www.goonhammer.com/start-competing-the-six-best-40k-detachments-for-beginners/

lol what.

Tyranids invasion fleet is an honorable mention yet War horde is on a second place? As a person who only plays orks and tyranids, Invasion Fleet is way easier to play than orks warhorde because Tyranids has super durable models that can actually avoid dying on objectives where orks cannot. Invasion fleet also has great stratagems that are super universal.

Its way harder to play orks war horde than it is to play Tyranids invasion fleet.

That or i just understand a lot more how to play tyranids.. which i guess is also plausible.

I am not sure what metric you consider durable..

I think we have a lot durable cheap stuff.

Killrig comes to mind... I think our best tools to be durable are generally in the rules like boyz in green tide or their just damn expensive like squig hoggs.

The only things we have that are durable, are only really durable on a waagh. Very few things are actually generally always durable in all rounds. Like a morkanaut or maybe even a battlewagon in cover. Kill Rigs really arent that durable outside of the waagh given the fnp is only on a 6+ and they are only toughness 10.

MANZ are not durable outside of the waagh, and while squighogs can be durable, they dont show up in winning lists for different reasons.

orks just arent a durable faction and i think thats okay, they just play differently, but thats also why they are more difficult to play than invasion fleet tyranids.

Orks might be considered durable for their cost, but they also pay many taxes, such as transport taxes and character taxes, which ups their Price in points of investment. Im not talking about greentide here, just ork models in general.

We hit a few decent break points, but generally we go for a "kind of durable, but we have a lot of them" vibe.

It's more about being inefficient to kill with common weapons, rather than being actually durable.

That's why i mentioned metric, like Afrodactyl mentioned we have quasi durable in a sense.

It's all down to points. Kill Rig at 155pts is pretty durable per wound and also has a decent bite.

Same can be said with a lot of other stuff. If your expecting durability on the metric in being able to shrug large amounts of damage like c'than, you wont find in any faction, and i see GW making moves to nerf or overcost those units.

So it comes down to your definition of durable.

For the price of 1 morka i can close to bring bring 2 rigs. That morka has extra weight on the list and it better be durable for it's cost.

I prefer redundancy.

Nobz are here to kill the marines. Breaka Boyz are here to kill the tanks. Very different attack profile.

Nobz are kind of swiss army knife unit that are good at killing a wide spread of units and continue on killing stuff afterwards. Pretty much anything with a sv 3+ and T9 or worse is fair game.

Breaka boyz are more or less a glass cannon unit that will punch a huge hole into a high toughness, high wounds target and then die. They struggle against most infantry squads.

Neither should be anywhere near terminators or -1 damage units.

Just noticed we don't have a single unit good against -1 :S well melee wise. And shooting is absolute random d6.

We are in a good place not great but pretty good and multiple decent detachments. Our 1 knock is buggy lists are an issue.

 Forceride wrote:
Just noticed we don't have a single unit good against -1 :S well melee wise. And shooting is absolute random d6.

Shoot the choppy, chop the shooty.

Tank bustas with SAG are good against pretty much everything and flash gits still tend to force enough damage through to deal non-trivial damage to such a unit.

Until we got tank bustas, I struggled a lot more against high T/save combinations than against -1 damage. Now I just pulsa-rokkit everything to smithereens.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Forceride wrote:
Just noticed we don't have a single unit good against -1 :S well melee wise. And shooting is absolute random d6.

Shoot the choppy, chop the shooty.

Tank bustas with SAG are good against pretty much everything and flash gits still tend to force enough damage through to deal non-trivial damage to such a unit.

Until we got tank bustas, I struggled a lot more against high T/save combinations than against -1 damage. Now I just pulsa-rokkit everything to smithereens.

This right here. Tankbustas really were the thing Orks were missing as far as ranged units go, especially since they nerfed Mek Gunz and made most shooting units only AP-1.

Hilarious note from meta monday: Currently orks have one of the lowest win rates, but the most event wins so far this year.

 Jidmah wrote:
Hilarious note from meta monday: Currently orks have one of the lowest win rates, but the most event wins so far this year.

GW: Instructions unclear, nerf Orks again in Balance Dataslate.

Just watch them release another poorly thought through surprise detachment and ignore Speed Freeks as usual.

Just hoping tankbustas skim by without any changes to their datasheet or points, they're what's keeping a lot of Ork detachments afloat in keeping up with the meta arms race at the moment.

Not sure if this is the right topic for this question. Could anyone point me in the right direction if it isn't?

I've been thinking of a jail tactics using deffkoptas. Their toughness and woundcount make them seem like a very good jail unit which can fly over enemy infiltrators.

It containst 18 deffkoptas, deffkilla wartrike with 6 bikers and super runts. And fill the list with trukk boys, tankbustas flashgits etc.

The idea is a first turn Waagh! Which has the super runts do a dogbone congaline in front of the enemy deployment and the warbikers fill a gap on the flanks. The second turn will have the deffkoptas in that same position.

What do you guys think, is a deffkoptas jail feasible?

Aarsigheid wrote:
Not sure if this is the right topic for this question. Could anyone point me in the right direction if it isn't?

I've been thinking of a jail tactics using deffkoptas. Their toughness and woundcount make them seem like a very good jail unit which can fly over enemy infiltrators.

It containst 18 deffkoptas, deffkilla wartrike with 6 bikers and super runts. And fill the list with trukk boys, tankbustas flashgits etc.

The idea is a first turn Waagh! Which has the super runts do a dogbone congaline in front of the enemy deployment and the warbikers fill a gap on the flanks. The second turn will have the deffkoptas in that same position.

What do you guys think, is a deffkoptas jail feasible?

Personally, the problem is that in the current meta for jail units is that if you don't have infiltrate or scout, you won't generally won't be in position to box them in. Even with terrain to hide behind, it means the advance force you're sending in will most likely be cleared out by the time the deffkoptas arrive, and you're just giving units for your opponent to kill by piecemeal, especially since you only really have the super runts that can go against other enemy scout or infiltrate units that a lot of people take now to counter opposing jail units. The other issue is that while the deffkilla wartrike's unit has a very large footprint (a good thing to hold up the enemy), that can be a double edged sword in actually working against them since you are trying to super boost them T1 but enemy infiltrators or scouts can gum up certain zones to hinder your movement since you can't go through buildings, meaning even something like a rhino or a couple of screening units can bottleneck them in a certain area if you aren't able to clear them out. It also banks on you getting the first turn which can be difficult if the enemy also has enhancements, units or strategems that can redeploy their units before the game starts, like Tzzentch or Eldar.

Having 18 deffkoptas is also a significant investment, since you're basically putting 540 points just on having them hold up units, which isn't terrible for what you get, but I feel the inability to be affected by stuff like Ard as Nails or other ideal stratagems unless you're taking the Speed Freeks detachment makes them limited in what they can do to stop opponents once they do get stuck in, and they aren't really that hard to kill barring basic infantry.

New ork points for the balance dataslate is out. Unfortunately my predictions were correct, we're still paying for the sins of Moar Dakka because GW doesn't know when to keep beating a dead horse if it isn't marines.

Points went up for the usual suspects for SAG, Gitz, TB's, Trukks, Lootas and Boyz as well for some reason? I guess Squighog boyz went down a smidge but without something to address their AP, they're still largely dead in the water. Same thing for the buggies which need a fundamental overhaul since a 5 point cut is laughable.

There is also a kult of speed detach change in the rule, from eligible to shoot > eligible to shoot and charge after advance.

I am not sure we can survive this one... these are direct nerfs at some of the best tools and their common through out the lists...

Only reason for the change is to force a change in list composition, but will never happen and this fundamentally underlines a thinking that does not understand our army issues.

Will remain playing but hard to see we not going bottom of the barrel.

 Forceride wrote:
There is also a kult of speed detach change in the rule, from eligible to shoot > eligible to shoot and charge after advance.

I am not sure we can survive this one... these are direct nerfs at some of the best tools and their common through out the lists...

Only reason for the change is to force a change in list composition, but will never happen and this fundamentally underlines a thinking that does not understand our army issues.

Will remain playing but hard to see we not going bottom of the barrel.

Especially with the new updates to DG and TS in the meta, who are definitely well positioned to counter us with our reduced damage output.

Definitely death by papercuts. Nothing shifted, lists just don't fit together anymore.

Those ork changes are impressive, and not in a good way.

Did they nerf units of 10 flash gits just to hit tactical brigade, a detachment which wasn't doing anything impressive anymore? And they hit lootas even harder, despite being worse?
Boyz is even more of a headscratcher, what are they trying to archive?
A casual list will be down a whole unit now, an optimized two. Most lists were barely holding one, I honestly can't see taktical being competitive anymore like this.

And their attempt to buff speed freeks is a complete joke. Advance and charge on units which are medicore in combat at best, and the discount essentially amounts to one extra buggy at 2000 points, since they also hiked up trukks at the same time. I guess we are supposed to run beastsnagga speedfreeks riding killrigs, right?

So, tankbustas, trukks, SAG and zodgrod I get. Everything else is stupid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:
Especially with the new updates to DG and TS in the meta, who are definitely well positioned to counter us with our reduced damage output.

Don't worry, the nerf for DG is inevitable. In my casual crusade, I'm completely massacring anyone I face, despite me deliberately playing a ton units that don't appear in much in top lists. But it's not just launcher drones, LoV, LoC and biologus that are good. All those units which aren't tier1 like defilers, blightlords, plague marines, poxwalkers, Morarion are all extremely solid units which would move up when the front row gets nerfed into oblivion It's not moar dakka levels of bad, but imagine every other unit being on the level of tankbustas. Something this dominant in both on tournaments and casual play always gets hit hard, possibly multiple times.

I couldn't even tell you good strategies to beat DG with orks at this point. They are super efficient against both hordes and durable units, have good AP and strength, getting close is dangerous and their toughness above the sweet spot where orks can kill things well. The only good news is that they are slower than orks and really don't like getting hit by volumes of powerklaws and rokkits. So I guess tank bustas, nobz+warboss and maybe koptas?

 Jidmah wrote:
Snipped for brevity

I agree that the Gitz, Lootas and Big Mek hit were all part of a belated nerf to an army that had already been emergency nerfed, and didn't really need to happen.

Fortunately the changes just put my 1990 point army to a flat 2000, so I've come away lucky.

The KoS changes are nice, but it's still just not enough. The relevant datasheets need changing, not the points costs.

 Afrodactyl wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Snipped for brevity

I agree that the Gitz, Lootas and Big Mek hit were all part of a belated nerf to an army that had already been emergency nerfed, and didn't really need to happen.

Fortunately the changes just put my 1990 point army to a flat 2000, so I've come away lucky.

The KoS changes are nice, but it's still just not enough. The relevant datasheets need changing, not the points costs.

It's also slightly annoying that the change while nice also just makes half the WAAAGH! rule redundant in the sense that you're really only calling it for the 5+ invuln save now, which makes me think of why they distinguished between a SpeedWAAAGH! and regular WAAAGH! in the previous edition. But yeah, it's a minor band aid to the gaping problem of how the detachment fundamentally is predicated on units that don't synergize or frankly do any roles well. It also doesn't help there's no meaningful options on said units. I'd much prefer the buggies cost up to 100-150 each but do actual significant damage, with more clearly delineated roles for each buggy. It also solves the issue of your deployment zone being blocked off by your own parking lot of units with how big their bases are.

The Boomdakka Snazzwagon should be primarily utility with its smoke clouds giving either negatives to hit or cover/obscuring, in addition to being a kamikaze unit (when it dies you can choose to act as if though it blows up on a 6) once you get close enough. The Kustom Boosta Blasta can be our mid-range jack of all trades, with their Rivet Kannon giving other units that it attacks an additional AP to provide ways to deal with cover being everywhere. The Megatrakk Scrapjet acts as the "anvil" unit of the army, by being slower but tankier and with significant anti-elite capabilities for both shooting and CC. The Shokkjump Dragsta should be the dedicated anti-tank, ideally with S12 AP-3 and devastating wounds rather than the weird psuedo anti-character unit it is now. Ideally their warp tunnel is more a reactive teleport to escape counter fire moreso than what it is now. The Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy is the only one where I'm not super sure what their role should be, given that indirect fire is so hit or miss and GW clearly doesn't want it to do meaningful damage, but maybe giving the gun [Anti-infantry 3+] and keeping some of the utility of negatives to movement/charges/advances might be good enough if they beef up their damage output.

 Afrodactyl wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Snipped for brevity

I agree that the Gitz, Lootas and Big Mek hit were all part of a belated nerf to an army that had already been emergency nerfed, and didn't really need to happen.

Fortunately the changes just put my 1990 point army to a flat 2000, so I've come away lucky.

The KoS changes are nice, but it's still just not enough. The relevant datasheets need changing, not the points costs.

Nah, the SAG big mek deserved it. When there is two load-outs for a character and you don't even stop to think about one of them (KMB/Smasha gun) the other one is too cheap

The regular big mek is a decent unit, I've run him often enough. But if you get the choice to upgrade a KMB into a SAG, why would you ever not do that?

Well in the meantime i will attempt to make some "Da Big Hunt" pressure list work.

With a full unit of squighogs with glory hog, 20 grots with zodgrod and 10 kommandos.

Then a few more grots here and there, snikrot, a stormboy unit, and 30 snaggas with bosses, and 3 kill rigs.

Why Da Big Hunt? Aren't their tools too narrow compared to Taktikal or War Horde?

 Kungfetti wrote:
Why Da Big Hunt? Aren't their tools too narrow compared to Taktikal or War Horde?

I got inspired by a list some time ago with 2x8 squighogs with glory hog boss and mozzie. I tried it out and it worked okay but played secondary missions terribly. So ive modified it to only encorporate one unit of squiggies with glory hog.

On one hand im sure you are right, Da Big Hunt may not be as great as the rest of the detatchments. But it does have a few merits, such as taking a kill rig, snagga boys or even my squighogs in to reserve, an advance and charge/Fall back and charge on demand. Given the changes some time ago i dont think it works out too bad anymore.


Furthermore given that you can have glory hog on the squiggies for scout 9 means that against a decent amount of match ups you can absolutely lock down half of the map, with 8 squighogs + character, 20 grots + zodgrod and 10 kommandos. And that is what im doing.

I lock down the map centered near the mid objective towards his natural objective outside his deployment zone. From there he can only move forward toward "my side" where i have 2-3 kill rigs stationed along side 30 snagga boys with a boss.

I attempt to win the primary game while keep scoring secondaries with grots, storm boys and snikrot, all while keeping him down.


Thats the idea at least, and ive only tried it once (which worked very good against knights). but there are of course limitations. Melee armies might not be the best to charge headlong in to at turn 1, so if you meet those, the game changes in to maybe a normal game of warhammer. Furthermore, if you face off against someone with lots of deepstrike and units that can fly. I suppose you can deal with the deepstrike units but the fly units can be a problem. If you have turn 2 its also a toss up in terms of how the game will go. If he doesnt move up too much because hes afraid of you, great. If he does move up, then it becomes a regular game of 40k.


Is this better than taktikal? I dont know, but it is different. I also dont know just how hard taktikal were hit by the absurd nerf to many of our units. But Da big hunt sounded fun, so i wanted to try it. Its not without flaws though, squighogs have 1AP too little, and they are unable to get +1 to hit from any boss types, which is just stupid. The squig bomb cant be used when you advance or fall back, and your beastboss on squig + Mozzie should by all means have AP 2 on their weapons too.


But warhorde is probably still better. But i did want to try out da big hunt. Its a very mobile army with constant advance and charge as well as take units in to reserve.