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Andykp wrote:
Still seems ok to me, Dredd mob seems more fun an and random this seems good for when you want a bit more predictability.

Sus1 is fine, a dakka boost during the Waaagh is fine, only getting Sus1 only during the Waaagh is not fine.

MD was a bit much, but this has really taken the teeth out of the detachment to the point that it barely has a reason to exist at this point over Dredd Mob or Taktikal Brigade.

(I still think they should have just merged MD with KoS, for the record)

Yeah, this feels like the crappier infantry/walker version of Speed Freeks in terms of the baseline detachment rule. Should have at least kept the Sustained 1 hits for the normal detachment rule, maybe with Sus 2 during the WAAAGH! turn. Having Assault basically means almost nothing since you never footslogged tankbustas, you put them in transports, if they survive past their deployment you're probably already winning. Lootas have long enough range and want to stay still due to heavy so assault is superfluous for them. At most I can see the assault being more useful for Killa Kanz, but you'd go Dred Mob instead at that point.

This with the 2CP for the WAAAGH! strat and other restrictions makes it DoA now.

I was expecting this so I did get one game in before the nerfs, but disappointing to see GW overcorrect as usual.

The thing I didn’t like about more dakka was it made you feel you could only select certain units and all the lists I made felt quite dull, I’m not a competitive player at all and can understand they have maybe gone too far with this nerf but looking at it now I’m tempted to try it with other things I didn’t feel I could take in it before.

Being able to shoot, advance and charge on a turn with the waaargh seems good to me. Was thinking it is not really about dakka anymore. More and speed but of footsloggers and walkers.

Disappointed to see the community call for blood and GW to give them what they want. Didn't care for the detachment myself and wanted to see it get nerfed, but I don't care at for how it was handled.

Andykp wrote:
The thing I didn’t like about more dakka was it made you feel you could only select certain units and all the lists I made felt quite dull, I’m not a competitive player at all and can understand they have maybe gone too far with this nerf but looking at it now I’m tempted to try it with other things I didn’t feel I could take in it before.

Being able to shoot, advance and charge on a turn with the waaargh seems good to me. Was thinking it is not really about dakka anymore. More and speed but of footsloggers and walkers.

I mean the problem with the way its written now, it doesn't make you want to take anything else more than what you would before. In fact, some units that were never taken (e.g. Ork boyz with shootas) were made semi-viable with the shooting buff from Sus 2, since otherwise you'd almost always take boyz with choppas instead. Now with the change to assault only, I struggle to see what units would have greater variety of choice to take in this one in this detachment compared to the previous one. I mean feel free to share what your thoughts are because you would go for other detachments entirely for I feel pretty much everything else. You wouldn't bring squighog boyz for example in this list.

 LunarSol wrote:
Disappointed to see the community call for blood and GW to give them what they want. Didn't care for the detachment myself and wanted to see it get nerfed, but I don't care at for how it was handled.

Oh I think the plan was always to eventually nerf it.
It's the classic bait & switch.
Make some rules designed to [u]really[i] sell particular units, clear out stock, & then "Ta Da!"

Well GW is going to GW. RIP the ork detachment. They double nerfed the jail part, which was the real problem, but then took a hammer to everything else. Right now it is one of those "why does this exist" detachments.

What does bother me though was that people were allowed to play with it, when it was still fun.
Because I would be okey, if this happened to all armies that break the too good barrier. Yet somehow some armies are not allowed to be good, while others can be broken for months and the anwser to them being so oscilates between "get good" and "the meta will soon learn how to play against it".

Karol wrote:
Well GW is going to GW. RIP the ork detachment. They double nerfed the jail part, which was the real problem, but then took a hammer to everything else. Right now it is one of those "why does this exist" detachments.

What does bother me though was that people were allowed to play with it, when it was still fun.
Because I would be okey, if this happened to all armies that break the too good barrier. Yet somehow some armies are not allowed to be good, while others can be broken for months and the anwser to them being so oscilates between "get good" and "the meta will soon learn how to play against it".

There are definitely "haves" and "have-nots" when it comes to rules treatments in the 40k meta, usually marines and craftworld eldar tend to be ones that are given lighter touches than others.

ccs wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Disappointed to see the community call for blood and GW to give them what they want. Didn't care for the detachment myself and wanted to see it get nerfed, but I don't care at for how it was handled.

Oh I think the plan was always to eventually nerf it.
It's the classic bait & switch.
Make some rules designed to [u]really[i] sell particular units, clear out stock, & then "Ta Da!"

Possibly, though I suspect it simply wasn't well tested because it was added in with so much other stuff in this update.

Kinda brilliant timing. I just hosted a game with two friends last night! Necrons vs More Dakka. My Necron friend forfeited turn 2. This has been a fun morning.

This will sound cynical but I'm serious when I say it's good they only nerfed the detachment and not lootas, tankbustaz or Flash Gitz as some people feared they would. Orks are now in the place they were before more dakka and that's not a bad place to be.

The 2cp Waagh is warranted, the 1 unit ignore cover is fair…
The assault all weapons all game adds some maneuverability, the 1 sustained only during Waagh is a big hit and provides only minor boost during Waagh… (effectively +1 to hit Waagh only)

But this detachment is still good.. i mean it’s probably the third best detachment warhorde is again the best, taktical is still usable competitively, and I think more Dakka is here just above bullyboys…

More Dakka wins out over bullyboys not because of the detachment rule but because more Dakka still has great Strats and enhancements… second Waagh even if 2cp, reroll wounds, +1ap, ignore cover, shoot in opppents phase.. all are good.. even the walker Strat is good especially with assault on all weapons.. but we also have good enhancements such as +1 to hit and rapid fire 1… so this detachment still has play. And ghaz, lootas, tankbustas and to a degree flashgitz are still good in this detachment.

gungo wrote:
The 2cp Waagh is warranted, the 1 unit ignore cover is fair…
The assault all weapons all game adds some maneuverability, the 1 sustained only during Waagh is a big hit and provides only minor boost during Waagh… (effectively +1 to hit Waagh only)

But this detachment is still good.. i mean it’s probably the third best detachment warhorde is again the best, taktical is still usable competitively, and I think more Dakka is here just above bullyboys…

More Dakka wins out over bullyboys not because of the detachment rule but because more Dakka still has great Strats and enhancements… second Waagh even if 2cp, reroll wounds, +1ap, ignore cover, shoot in opppents phase.. all are good.. even the walker Strat is good especially with assault on all weapons.. but we also have good enhancements such as +1 to hit and rapid fire 1… so this detachment still has play. And ghaz, lootas, tankbustas and to a degree flashgitz are still good in this detachment.

3rd best I think is being generous, assault is only for infantry and walkers, of which tankbustas will not be able to use much, if ever given that they're best used in transports, likewise for Flash Gitz. Lootas don't want to move since they have the heavy keyword. The rest of our infantry are largely just packing pistols or short ranged weapons like burnas, which are also best left in transports. So the rule will come up only in fringe cases. The strats aren't bad (barring the 2CP waaagh strat) but the enhancements are meh without the sustained hits to back it up. It's just slightly above Kult of Speed, but definitely below Dred Mob, Green Tide, and Bully Boyz.

 LunarSol wrote:

ccs wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Disappointed to see the community call for blood and GW to give them what they want. Didn't care for the detachment myself and wanted to see it get nerfed, but I don't care at for how it was handled.

Oh I think the plan was always to eventually nerf it.
It's the classic bait & switch.
Make some rules designed to [u]really[i] sell particular units, clear out stock, & then "Ta Da!"

Possibly, though I suspect it simply wasn't well tested because it was added in with so much other stuff in this update.

Complete nonsense. The dakka detachment mostly ran the same units as dreadmob and tactical brigade do. Outside of some people's third unit of flash gits, no unit will be returned to the shelf.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:
3rd best I think is being generous, assault is only for infantry and walkers, of which tankbustas will not be able to use much, if ever given that they're best used in transports, likewise for Flash Gitz. Lootas don't want to move since they have the heavy keyword. The rest of our infantry are largely just packing pistols or short ranged weapons like burnas, which are also best left in transports. So the rule will come up only in fringe cases. The strats aren't bad (barring the 2CP waaagh strat) but the enhancements are meh without the sustained hits to back it up. It's just slightly above Kult of Speed, but definitely below Dred Mob, Green Tide, and Bully Boyz.

Fully agree, but you forgot Da Big Hunt. It's quite one-dimensional, but still just as powerful as dread mob or nerfed tactical brigade.

 Jidmah wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

ccs wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Disappointed to see the community call for blood and GW to give them what they want. Didn't care for the detachment myself and wanted to see it get nerfed, but I don't care at for how it was handled.

Oh I think the plan was always to eventually nerf it.
It's the classic bait & switch.
Make some rules designed to [u]really[i] sell particular units, clear out stock, & then "Ta Da!"

Possibly, though I suspect it simply wasn't well tested because it was added in with so much other stuff in this update.

Complete nonsense. The dakka detachment mostly ran the same units as dreadmob and tactical brigade do. Outside of some people's third unit of flash gits, no unit will be returned to the shelf.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:
3rd best I think is being generous, assault is only for infantry and walkers, of which tankbustas will not be able to use much, if ever given that they're best used in transports, likewise for Flash Gitz. Lootas don't want to move since they have the heavy keyword. The rest of our infantry are largely just packing pistols or short ranged weapons like burnas, which are also best left in transports. So the rule will come up only in fringe cases. The strats aren't bad (barring the 2CP waaagh strat) but the enhancements are meh without the sustained hits to back it up. It's just slightly above Kult of Speed, but definitely below Dred Mob, Green Tide, and Bully Boyz.

Fully agree, but you forgot Da Big Hunt. It's quite one-dimensional, but still just as powerful as dread mob or nerfed tactical brigade.

Right, totally forgot about Da Big Hunt for some reason, yeah it's definitely below that as well. Shows you how much I run it compared to the others (hint: not a lot lol).

 Grimskul wrote:

Andykp wrote:
The thing I didn’t like about more dakka was it made you feel you could only select certain units and all the lists I made felt quite dull, I’m not a competitive player at all and can understand they have maybe gone too far with this nerf but looking at it now I’m tempted to try it with other things I didn’t feel I could take in it before.

Being able to shoot, advance and charge on a turn with the waaargh seems good to me. Was thinking it is not really about dakka anymore. More and speed but of footsloggers and walkers.

I mean the problem with the way its written now, it doesn't make you want to take anything else more than what you would before. In fact, some units that were never taken (e.g. Ork boyz with shootas) were made semi-viable with the shooting buff from Sus 2, since otherwise you'd almost always take boyz with choppas instead. Now with the change to assault only, I struggle to see what units would have greater variety of choice to take in this one in this detachment compared to the previous one. I mean feel free to share what your thoughts are because you would go for other detachments entirely for I feel pretty much everything else. You wouldn't bring squighog boyz for example in this list.

You’re probably right, reading the other comments seems I’m being too optimistic.

I was actually thinking of bringing squighog boyz but as I said, I’m not competitive or very good at the game so it’s probably not a good idea!

Andykp wrote:
You’re probably right, reading the other comments seems I’m being too optimistic.

I was actually thinking of bringing squighog boyz but as I said, I’m not competitive or very good at the game so it’s probably not a good idea!

Don't forget that the Moar Dakka benefits are still limited to infantry and walkers. If you are not optimizing your list, most detachments are really close in power. If you want to run some shooty units with squighogs and not worry too much about army composition, both wartribe and tactical brigade are good choices. If you are willing to build around a detachment, bully boyz would also be an option.

How to build for the different detachments is not that hard on casual levels:
Bully boyz => Multiple units of nobz and MANz, make sure every melee unit that matters has a WARBOSS model to lead it (beastbosses, wartrike, Thrakka are all warbosses)
Dread mob => Bring multiple big meks and attach them to powerful units, with more focus on shooting units than melee units. Add walkers, mek guns and gretchin for flavor.
Green tide => 100-120 boyz plus whatever other infantry you want.
Da Big Hunt => The majority of your army should be squighogs, beastyboyz and rigs.
Taktikal Brigade => Every important unit should be lead by a warboss or big mek, bring flash gits and a kaptin.
War Horde=> You bring a pile of orks that is none of the above. Should lean more towards fighting than shooting.

Nobz lead by a warboss, beastsnagga boyz lead by beastboss, flash gits, tank bustas, trukks, gretchin and breaka boyz are all great units that will do their job irrespective of whether a detachment benefits them or not. This also applies to some other, less efficient units. Therefore, you are fairly free to build your army with whatever theme you prefer without being limited to a small pool of units.

ive been playing my Tyranids mostly here in 10th edition, and ive been moving as of late so i never tried the more dakka detatchment. Thus i cant really say anything out of experience with it just my view of how i see this going down.


I think it was semi obvious that there needed to be a nerf to the more dakka detatchment. The waagh stratagem should be 2 cp but not exclude grots (because why exclude them when it cost 2 cp anyway? it was only ever strong on Zodgrod turn 1), but the current detatchment to me seems completely stupid.

The detatchment has been overnerfed, way over nerfed. Maybe its my limited ork knowledge as of 10th edition but why would i care at all about having assault on my infantry and walkers, always? (well maybe walkers since they dont jump out of transports) This detatchment should give sustained hits 1 always and assault on the waaagh where you want to advance and shoot and maybe charge also.

Orks, as i see it, is NOT inherently a shooting army. They can BECOME a shooting army when you play a detatchment that gives rules that support shooting, like tactical brigade can and dread mob. i dont think lootas are great without any buffs (they are just cheap support units, which makes them decent over all, but not a unit you expect to kill a ton with) and only really tankbustas and flash gitz work as a shooting unit outside shooting detatchments. And flash gitz already dont get any buffs from the sustained hits 1 as they have it already.

I would only rarely need assault outside of the waagh anyway so it feels like you are playing without a detatchment rule untill you waaagh and have assault and sustained hits 1.

Assault on a faction that dont shoot particularly well is just sad. it works for others because they can actually shoot reliably. Sustained should be always, and the assault only on waaagh. Its only on the waaagh i would normally want to advance my shooting units anyway. If a unit of lootas sit in a trukk how often do you need assault to hit what you want? You already move 9 inches due to 3" disembarkation and 6" move.

This detatchment just feels bad, and is over nerfed because GW panicked when people threw tantrums and banned the detatchment. I knew they would over nerf it, and they did. I had hopes they wouldnt but they squashed that hope

My 2 cents.

While i agree that the nerf was heavy handed, i still think we came out ok, since nothing but the detach was affected.

I hope, this is a big one, GW learned it's lesson, armies like ours, where math is important, i hope they hired or moved some one to check the math.. even if just superficially. I prefer the rule of cool, but some semblance of sanity in balance is also great. Not expecting this but it would be great.

For some, while i understand some people are annoyed about the detach nerfs, i wish to remind some, that detach's like speedfreaks and buggies spread sheets need a look at, and we already have 2 decent options for shooting. So i am not bothered that this one got nuked. If anything i would like to see changes to under performers and bad data sheets.

Have a great weekend and amazing games!

The issue why most people were complaining is because people wanted to run their bad moons/dakkadakka armies from the past which heavily relied on shoota boyz.
Sustain 2 and those melee buffs are exactly what shoota boyz need to compete with the much better melee options we have.

Those armies are now once again left without a detachment to support their play style.

yeah, they should have delt with the jail or write their rules in such a way that a "jail" situations doesn't happen over over again. Was to be expected. At least they didn't mess up the points, but that probabaly is going to happen in 2-3 months anyway. Funny thing, after the first week in places where Dakka wasn't banned, it did drop in win rates, a lot. People just had to retool their armies, just the way they did in Wolf Jail times etc. Same old, same old.

Also this maybe a hot take, but considering we are at the end of an edition, balancing a year before 11th isn't really what GW should be looking for. Especialy for armies that maybe should have some fun, with stuff people like and want to play with. You know give ad mecha robots a crazy list , give something to the non ultramarine marines etc
And they can do it, problem is they release those armies, but then they nerf them after a few weeks. It is great for sells for a few years, but at some point people will notice that GW does that and either they will print the updates, or just wait a month.
Meh, it is a game writen for two groups of people, that are small and/or don't exist in some places. It is so wierd. You are either expected to play W40k "The Historical narrative bonanza where we don't care about rules, stats, models, even packs etc" or you have a rule set writen/tested by a closed group of testers in US/UK, which kind of a sucks if you happen to play on neither US/UK tables and with US/UK rules packs.

One thing I have thought about more dakka is as others have said, it’s not about dakka anymore, it’s really about faster infantry and walkers, with. Touch more dakka for one turn.

Jidmah, you are right I do try to take models i like more than optimise the lists but I’m playing more games now against more competitive players and feel a bit like I’m hamstringing myself a bit. Really liked taking more shoota boyz in more dakka and I’ve made them work ok in tactical brigade too. The lists I made that were more optimum more dakka were a bit dull to me, but very powerful.

 Jidmah wrote:
The issue why most people were complaining is because people wanted to run their bad moons/dakkadakka armies from the past which heavily relied on shoota boyz.
Sustain 2 and those melee buffs are exactly what shoota boyz need to compete with the much better melee options we have.

Those armies are now once again left without a detachment to support their play style.

I can agree, it sucks, but so can the guy's over there, that want to play their buggies. This falls in the general sense that the issue is the data sheet not a detachment fix. Like i mentioned, i hope GW pivot's into fixing under performing stuff. I don't think it's a great idea when there is like another year for 11th, like some mentioned, to release more unbalanced stuff.

But that's just my opinion, for Gork & Mork only knows what goes in GW head.

Andykp wrote:
One thing I have thought about more dakka is as others have said, it’s not about dakka anymore, it’s really about faster infantry and walkers, with. Touch more dakka for one turn.

Jidmah, you are right I do try to take models i like more than optimise the lists but I’m playing more games now against more competitive players and feel a bit like I’m hamstringing myself a bit. Really liked taking more shoota boyz in more dakka and I’ve made them work ok in tactical brigade too. The lists I made that were more optimum more dakka were a bit dull to me, but very powerful.

I think you can easily get away with *a* unit of shootaboyz in tactical brigade or dreadmob. Give them a big mek or weirdboy and Ufthak and they wiIl absolutely have an impact on the game. I do it regularly for my crusades because I simply love the little buggers.

It doesn't scale though, if bring more than one of those tricked out units, they will eat away the points you need for units which actively work towards winning the game. Bringing 3+ units of shootas is pretty much losing the game at list building stage.

 Jidmah wrote:

Andykp wrote:
One thing I have thought about more dakka is as others have said, it’s not about dakka anymore, it’s really about faster infantry and walkers, with. Touch more dakka for one turn.

Jidmah, you are right I do try to take models i like more than optimise the lists but I’m playing more games now against more competitive players and feel a bit like I’m hamstringing myself a bit. Really liked taking more shoota boyz in more dakka and I’ve made them work ok in tactical brigade too. The lists I made that were more optimum more dakka were a bit dull to me, but very powerful.

I think you can easily get away with *a* unit of shootaboyz in tactical brigade or dreadmob. Give them a big mek or weirdboy and Ufthak and they wiIl absolutely have an impact on the game. I do it regularly for my crusades because I simply love the little buggers.

It doesn't scale though, if bring more than one of those tricked out units, they will eat away the points you need for units which actively work towards winning the game. Bringing 3+ units of shootas is pretty much losing the game at list building stage.

Good to know, I too love them, feel like “real” ORK boyz to me. The big mek leading them would give them the MEK keyword for Dredd mob right? Hadn’t thought of that.

Correct, and dat button works for them in both shooting and melee. Don't expect any miracles from them in combat though unless it's your Waaagh! turn.

Besides the lackluster Kult of Speed Detachment, I don't understand why Orks aren't represented more in the top 5 placements in tournaments.

T5 1w bodies and melee focus with no saves, horde.. you either do damage and deny points or your already playing from behind.
Although we have a simple plan we are surprisingly hard to pilot.

We are not eldar level but we don't have the marine saves, so mistakes snowball really hard. All you need is bypass our T and we star losing models fast and most weapons do this easily, couple that with bad position and bad data sheets and well that's it. Honestly, some datasheets are traps.

One or 2 critical charges fail, or you got a bad shooting turn and a winnable or close game turns to a loss out of no where.

 Jidmah wrote:
Correct, and dat button works for them in both shooting and melee. Don't expect any miracles from them in combat though unless it's your Waaagh! turn.

Hadn’t thought of the melee bonus too. Will try that then, be good to dust of the shoota boyz. Ta.

 Forceride wrote:
T5 1w bodies and melee focus with no saves, horde.. you either do damage and deny points or your already playing from behind.
Although we have a simple plan we are surprisingly hard to pilot.

We are not eldar level but we don't have the marine saves, so mistakes snowball really hard. All you need is bypass our T and we star losing models fast and most weapons do this easily, couple that with bad position and bad data sheets and well that's it. Honestly, some datasheets are traps.

One or 2 critical charges fail, or you got a bad shooting turn and a winnable or close game turns to a loss out of no where.

I agree. Orks are difficult to learn and have a higher skill ceiling than most armies. That's why even over decades and editions you see the same people doing well.
We've also seen great players switch to orks and fall flat on their faces, who then switch back to eldar or marines and immediately became successful again.

It also has repeatedly put GW into the situation where orks were mostly fine for your average tournament player, while seasoned veterans suddenly became unstoppable meta-crushers.