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 Forceride wrote:
Had they made the average calculation of what meant a Sustained 2 for the army, then amazing waagg strat and it's insanity... this might have been avoided. Human suck at perceiving probability and risk btw.

what i saw?... a normal loota doing 24 to 22 hits not counting spana for 100pts? in ideal conditions... that's insane for the game...

There was this argument that GW balances by what it feels is right, throw's a few dice and is math averse... I don't appreciate conspiracies but it's hard to justify this one...

Unfortunately I wasn't kidding with my Space Marines comment. Giving SH2 to BS 5+ is equivalent to giving SH4 to BS 3+. But does anyone on the GW design team realize that? I doubt it.

 Mr Nobody wrote:
Honestly, if More Dakka was changed to sustained 1, I think it would be just fine. Basically a shooty version of the War Horde detachment.

I'd let the poor shoota boys keep SH2 since they need something, but otherwise yeah. SH1 would have been fine, and then make the Waagh strat CP2.

 Mr Nobody wrote:
Honestly, if More Dakka was changed to sustained 1, I think it would be just fine. Basically a shooty version of the War Horde detachment.

But the sustained 2 isn't the problem. Those aren't eldar or SoB, they have volume of fire, but without garented 6s, their shoting phases have HUGE variation. This is the same situation we had with the wolf jail. Locking out/winning games turn 1, especialy when going first. And what follows is generaly nerfs, spread over 2 quarters, that hit the "too powerful" build and wreck the ability to use the units that made it up in any other configuration. If it wasn't for Zog and the gobos, the army wouldn't be more powerful then Ynari or GSC. What I agree with is the fact that GW is, with high probability, nerf the living hell out of what makes this detachment good. But it is hardly the first rodeo of this kind, that ork players have to go through this edition.

Until they nerf this list into oblivion, I expect to see it at every game where it isn't banned.

Is there any way to counter this detachment as it stands right now?

Either be so big and tough you shrug off all those rokkits, or so fast you can get in their face right away before you get blasted off the board.

 BorderCountess wrote:
Either be so big and tough you shrug off all those rokkits, or so fast you can get in their face right away before you get blasted off the board.

Are there any epic heroes that can be removed quickly to lessen the pain?

I'm just not sure how to counter this detachment.

Maybe deep striking the entire Guard army would allow me to close range Dakka the Orks into submission on my terms.

 Quixote wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:
Either be so big and tough you shrug off all those rokkits, or so fast you can get in their face right away before you get blasted off the board.

Are there any epic heroes that can be removed quickly to lessen the pain?

I'm just not sure how to counter this detachment.

Maybe deep striking the entire Guard army would allow me to close range Dakka the Orks into submission on my terms.

I mean outside of Zodgrod Wortsnagga, most Moar Dakka lists don't use any Epic Heroes, they just have Big Meks with SAG's to buff up tankbustas and either Warbosses/Beastbosses to buff up the melee contingent in the army.

Thrakka is fairly common among those lists actually, but trying to remove him is kind of a trap. The main strength of his squad is being a distraction carnifex, you are better off killing shooty units.

Close ranging orks also doesn't work too well - you just get hit by more weapons and the detachment has good buffs for fighting in close range.

I guess using indirect fire to take out lootas will reduce the damage you are taking, otherwise you best chance is opening up trukks and taking out tank bustas ASAP is the best you can do. If you go second, overwatching the supa-runts to get out of movement jail is probably not a terrible idea.

It's simply stupidly good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a different topic, on the weekend I had both my first game with the nerfed tactical brigade and the first game against new EC.

I played like a grot drunk on fungus beer, so I'll spare you the details. I basically traded my flash gits with kaptin against a rhino, Lucius refused to fail saves, I rapidly ingressed my bikes in a position where they couldn't actually shoot anything and deep struck my stormboyz onto an objective that wasn't actually available for the mission action. That said, I don't think tactical brigade lost that much. Then again, my orks also lost the ability to inflict 3 MW on themselves every time I order something. I still think it's superior to dread mob, even if it's just because of the broader choice of units available.

EC are a really cool army to face. It basically feels like playing against pink orks. They have low ranges, hit hard and are squishy. Despite all my fails I had a blast. Things to watch out for:
- They have sustained and lethal hits everywhere. Especially infantry dies a lot faster than it would against regular marines, and so do trukks. It's easy to misjudge them.
- Their lords are pretty much warboss level, treat them as such. They can easily go through a unit of nob profiles or beast snaggas if they chose their to use their bonus attacks. The fight first enhancement was very difficult to handle for me.
- Lucius is a monster. He might look puny, but he took out Mozrog and an entire squad of squigs in a single round of combat. Shoot him dead when you can.
- Noise marines have great gun and similar to boyz in combat. 18" range might not sound like much, but they can always advance and shoot. The ranged lord is mostly annoying to kill, not that great IMO. They operate very similar to tankbustas.
- There is a LOT of precision spread across the army, but none of it has high range. Keep your warbosses and meks safe.
- In general, all power armored marines are quite easy to kill, but are fast and good in combat. Make sure they are dead before they can hit you.
- Just like us, they struggle with high toughness. Lucious is probably the only reliable way of taking out something with T11+.
- I did not face Fulgrim or Flawless Blades

From Meta Monday on Reddit, Orks only had a 51% win rate over the weekend, with MD sitting at 53% win rate as a detachment.

It would seem that people are learning how to face the detachment and it might not be as potent as first thought. I would still probably suggest nerfing the Waaagh strat and the Grot jail though.

Bumping Waaagh! to 2 CP automatically nerfs the grot jail.

If you go first, you simply cannot use the Waaagh! because lack the CP to do so. It's a lot less effective when you go second - assuming there are enough gretchin left to jail anyone.

I'd still prevent tankbustas from benefiting from sustained hits 2. It's just way too efficient on them.

 Jidmah wrote:
Bumping Waaagh! to 2 CP automatically nerfs the grot jail.

If you go first, you simply cannot use the Waaagh! because lack the CP to do so. It's a lot less effective when you go second - assuming there are enough gretchin left to jail anyone.

I'd still prevent tankbustas from benefiting from sustained hits 2. It's just way too efficient on them.

This is true. However you could use your regular Waaagh turn 1 to circumvent the CP requirement. This would hugely impact the rest of the army, but it would work both in enabling the Grot jail, and limiting the abuse from the detachment.

Maybe just take the Sus2 away from Blast weapons, or Sus1 on Blast weapons if you still want TBs to have some benefit from the detachment.

That would hurt random things like stompa, naut or thump guns. Tank bustas are the problem, not blast weapons.

Then again, you could redesign the detachment and have it affect all rapid fire weapons. At least that would help bikes and some of the buggies.

I witnessed a butt kicking this weekend at the hands of the More Dakka! Orks.

Watched an Forgepact Imperial Knight army with a bunch of Skitarii disintegrate, as the Orks had some ability to negate cover...

And the Orks didn't seem to lose any close combat skills in this new Detachment.

The Orks targeted the Skitarii, then the Armigers and ignored the two large Knights as they couldn't contest enough objectives.

I really thought that the high toughness of the Armigers and Knights would be a deciding factor... but the Ork player just ignored the big guys until last and removed all the infantry and Armigers.

Now that I've witnessed it, I have no clue how to counter it with a deep strike Tempestus list, except to attempt surgical strikes to remove all the Flash Gitz and Tank Busters first.

Knights are a poor counter to Dakka. So far only thing keeping Dakka in check is fire and fade armies aka eldar. Tempestus bridgehead prenerf could have done well but that list has been overly nerfed.

Well short meta report based on last few CI and Reddit Meta Monday:

- game is balanced with no signifikant struggles.
- basicly becaus of wide range of bans on More Dakka and the fact that a lot of Warbosses has enough style to do not play it in full swing.
- the list is obviously the same, max TB FG and Lootas. The issue is, that some fast moving units can deal with it but a lot of armies (not lists, armies) seriously struggle to do anything. As was commented above with the knights.
- MD has 63% win rate and 39% X-0/X-1. So definitely not healthy. This can happen:

As more and more time goes on, the more I think that Sus1, and Sus2 during Waaagh, is the way forward with this detachment.

Make the Waaagh strat 2cp, then you have to decide whether you want Grot jail or big Dakka.

It's a non-decision though. No one will waste their big Waaagh! for grot jail, the unit will just be dropped.

 Jidmah wrote:
It's a non-decision though. No one will waste their big Waaagh! for grot jail, the unit will just be dropped.

Thus resolving the issue of the Grot jail without hiking points or hitting the datasheets, and meaning that we can focus on the rest of the detachment for any needed tweaks.

My point was that attaching the extra firepower to the Waaagh! is irrelevant to grot jail being dead as long as you properly cost the stratagem.

For any unit outside of tankbustas and maybe lootas, sustained hits 2 is not causing any problems at all. Therefore, any solution that affects anything but those two units is not a good one.

Please explain to me the effectiveness of the Grot Jail, and why the Dakka Detachment really makes it thrive.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Please explain to me the effectiveness of the Grot Jail, and why the Dakka Detachment really makes it thrive.

It's primarily the 1CP to make an Ork unit count as having the benefits of being in a WAAAAGH! turn strat, as it gives them the additional 6" movement boost to screen out byeond their initial 9" Scout move T1 and allow them to aggressively tie up a big chunk of your opponent's army with a large unit of 20 grots with Zogrod, which buys the rest of your units time to get in position and secure spots for primaries. It's basically our Orky equivalent of what marines do with their scouts and Eldar can do with their Striking Scorpions, just a lot more efficiently since we have the volume of bodies they can't bring, -1 to wound, and 5+ invuln that gives them the sweet spot of requiring a lot more investment than what they're worth to get rid of them and that first turn is crucial for setting up the rest of the units in the game.

Thanks!

Just trying to learn more about Orks.

One of my fever dreams was to build an Ork AirCav unit (aka Ork Commandos in Berets with Copters galore).

One of these days...

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Thanks!

Just trying to learn more about Orks.

One of my fever dreams was to build an Ork AirCav unit (aka Ork Commandos in Berets with Copters galore).

One of these days...

We did use to have the Chinork Warkopta from FW, alas that's been lost to the sands of time thanks to GW purges, so that would have actually been possible in the past if you wanted to put Kommandos in them for some reason.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Thanks!

Just trying to learn more about Orks.

One of my fever dreams was to build an Ork AirCav unit (aka Ork Commandos in Berets with Copters galore).

One of these days...

We did use to have the Chinork Warkopta from FW, alas that's been lost to the sands of time thanks to GW purges, so that would have actually been possible in the past if you wanted to put Kommandos in them for some reason.

We still have it. It's in Legends.
As for the model? OOP & probably expensive on the secondary market. But it's not very difficult to scratch build your own....

I've also seen a 3d printed version around which looks like a slightly more modern version of the original without losing the original style.

 Jidmah wrote:
My point was that attaching the extra firepower to the Waaagh! is irrelevant to grot jail being dead as long as you properly cost the stratagem.

For any unit outside of tankbustas and maybe lootas, sustained hits 2 is not causing any problems at all. Therefore, any solution that affects anything but those two units is not a good one.

EDIT
Previous comment now irrelevant as they've just updated the detachment.

All infantry and walkers gain assault, and then gain Sus1 during the Waaagh.

Get Stuck In is now 2cp and specifically excludes gretchin.

Ignore cover stratagem was also nerfed, affects just one unit now.

I guess the detachment failed its hazardous roll and takes three mortal wounds.

Not as bad as kult of speed, but worse than any other detachment with those changes.

https://www.goonhammer.com/more-dakka-nerfs-the-goonhammer-hot-take/?fbclid=IwY2xjawJjL0pleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHt7ykHIB7ugskmkdxuC-hD5APMd8uDHzK8OmmGxzM4N4hFSfOJGis_qUnLiK_aem_xHGH6xNptiHJ1s-JTMPOBg

 Jidmah wrote:


Not as bad as kult of speed, but worse than any other detachment with those changes.

Agreed. Classic GW move:
"We have three ideas as to how we can nerf this detachment, which one should we use"
"Yes"

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/mirza2hg/more-dakka-detachment-update/

It's not too bad....

More Dakka detachment update

Orks
1 min
09 Apr 25

It seems that there might be such a thing as “too much dakka” after all. The recently released More Dakka Detachment for the Orks has proven itself to be just that bit too shooty on the tabletop.


With that in mind, the Warhammer Design Studio has assessed the Orks’ recent performance at all levels of Matched Play, and have decided to make a few slight changes. This should make More Dakka more fun to play with and against for everyone.

The Detachment Rule has been changed to passively grant Assault, while Ork units now gain Sustained Hits 1 during the Waaagh!. The Get Stuck In, Ladz! Stratagem now excludes Gretchin units, as they ain’t the ladz, and Long, Uncontrolled Bursts will now only work for a unit that won’t lay off the trigger.

You can download the updated detachment below, or find it on the Warhammer 40,000 app. The rule change goes into effect immediately.

Still seems ok to me, Dredd mob seems more fun an and random this seems good for when you want a bit more predictability.