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He was basically a Mongol/Steppe leader on his planet, but at ~3 m/10 ft tall, guessing he weighs near ~450 kg/1,000 lbs without armor, no horse could support him. I'm not an expert in large horses like Clydesdales and Shire horses, the biggest species we have on Earth, but even they on average weigh ~900 kg/2,000 lbs and aren't known for their speed. Steppe peoples horses were typically smaller than the European breeds that had to support armored knights and a couple of decades isn't long enough to selectively breed a horse that could carry him into battle.

Generally horses can effectively carry 10-20% of their bodyweight on their back. It would require a monster of a horse to support a primarch I think. In addition, most horses would likely be physically inferior to primarchs- as it currently stands, well-trained infantry can have equivalent or better strategic mobility than typical cavalry (although worse tactical mobility) because humans are superb endurance critters. Primarchs have undoubtedly superior endurance and may be quicker in an outright sprint vs gallop.

Having said that, I could see a chariot approach working. The efficiency of wheels allows a much greater weight to be pulled safely.

Edit: shires and clydesdales are breeds, not species. They are the same species as the steppe horses and even Przewalski's horse, the last remaining wild horse population.

Who knows what genetic tinkering might’ve been done to Chogorian Steeds? Size, strength, endurance, all can be selectively bred for.

If they’re the sole species beast of burden, we could reasonably see a much larger variety, even without specific technological genetic and bionic tinkering.

The people of Chogoris were already Horsemen well before The Khan was found there, so we’re not having to limit it to a couple of decades.

I misspoke. Of course I know they're the same species, just different breeds, we're all allowed a brain fart from time to time.

I thought about using a chariot, but with his weight, the wheels would probably sink into the ground. He probably just had to run. When he got his bike, it was probably the first time he probably went FAST.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Who knows what genetic tinkering might’ve been done to Chogorian Steeds? Size, strength, endurance, all can be selectively bred for.

If they’re the sold species beast of burden, we could reasonably see a much larger variety, even without specific technological genetic and bionic tinkering.

The people of Chogoris were already Horsemen well before The Khan was found there, so we’re not having to limit it to a couple of decades.

As I stated, Steppe horses were generally smaller than their European counterparts, so they wouldn't have breeds even close to the size the Kahn could ride. If they decided to breed a horse of larger size, it would take decades, and even then, a horse that could support him would be the size of a rhino and not that fast.

The steeds on Chogoris aren't horses just like all how dogs are Canids and cats are Felines.

 Gert wrote:
The steeds on Chogoris aren't horses just like all how dogs are Canids and cats are Felines.

So what do they ride in a feudalistic era?

The point Gert is making is that whatever is ridden on Chogoris 29000 years into the future is going to be so far removed from current horses as to have capabilities likely to be significantly divergent.

Chogoris had a steppe culture similar to the Eurasian steppe of current and recent Earth. It is not medieval Mongolia mysteriously pushed thousands of years into the future, but inspired by that culture.

The horses likely underwent selective breeding or genetic tampering that has altered them majorly. Personally I doubt this would make them much larger because there isn't much benefit to huge horses for steppe peoples, but it might have done.

Citation needed that Chogoris followed exactly what was available to Mongols.

The Khan did not found Chogorian Culture. He was adopted into it. It had existed for an untold time before he arrived and conquered all.

Your claim of only having a few decades just isn’t based in, well fact sounds too strong for a fictional setting, but let’s say canon?

Also worth keeping in mind the Horsey wouldn’t be carrying him around whilst he’s clad in Power Armour or equivalent, so the weight isn’t going to be quite as significant as made out. Yes an 8’ tall muscle bound humanoid is still a hefty lad, but it doesn’t compare to a heavily armoured in near impregnable powered armour 8’ tall muscle bound humanoid.

Second, consider why Horses were favoured in war. Speed, yes. But only to the point where you can either outpace infantry to prevent you being bogged down, or fast and heavy enough to bowl over anyone standing in your way, letting the weight of the horse carry you into and ideally through enemy lines. You simply never needed your horse to go particularly fast as a result, because that is also relevant.

 NorthernXY wrote:
So what do they ride in a feudalistic era?

Beasts of burden that aren't horses, specifically aduu and yat beasts.

Other things to consider:

* I'm not sure how long the khan was on Chogoris, but the primarchs do seem to have been smaller when they first landed on their various worlds. I don't think we get exact measurements, but the impression I got from the Kurze and Alpharius stories was that they looked like really athletic teens when they landed. I think Sanguinius may have been a full-on baby? Whatever the case, my point is that for at least part of his time on Chogoris, the khan may have been physically small enough to make finding a mount easier.

* Chariots maybe? I know these aren't a clasically mongolian thing, but it would let the khan keep pace with his friends pretty well.

* Primarchs are made of fantasy biology and are also canonically just kind of magical to varying extents. It's entirely possible that the khan is (selectively?) lighter than he looks or that things around him sort of scale up/down subtly or something. That's probably pushing it, but primarchs are full of vague superpowers that blur the line between being physical, psychological, or straight up magical in nature.

He balanced himself on two horses running side by side, his foot on each one.

 Haighus wrote:
Generally horses can effectively carry 10-20% of their bodyweight on their back. It would require a monster of a horse to support a primarch I think. In addition, most horses would likely be physically inferior to primarchs- as it currently stands, well-trained infantry can have equivalent or better strategic mobility than typical cavalry (although worse tactical mobility) because humans are superb endurance critters. Primarchs have undoubtedly superior endurance and may be quicker in an outright sprint vs gallop.

Having said that, I could see a chariot approach working. The efficiency of wheels allows a much greater weight to be pulled safely.

Edit: shires and clydesdales are breeds, not species. They are the same species as the steppe horses and even Przewalski's horse, the last remaining wild horse population.

The lion rides a horse in his origin book. Just makes a mockery of the idea of primarchs being enormous, like 10 foot. So stupid. Yiu end up with scenes like on the North Pole in elf.

You get a lot of scenes in the HH stories where primarchs either explicitly or implicitly "seem" to become larger/smaller and more/less imposing. I think it's probably implied that this is more a matter of how they carry themselves or even a subtle psychic effect, but my headcanon is that the primarchs all have at least a toe in the warp and as such tend to make reality kind of "fuzzy" around them. So the primarch is literally twice your height, but he's also riding your horse without hurting the poor thing.

Or it's just hard to remember that being 10 feet tall is inconvenient when you're writing about primarchs.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
,my headcanon is that the primarchs all have at least a toe in the warp and as such tend to make reality kind of "fuzzy" around them. So the primarch is literally twice your height, but he's also riding your horse without hurting the poor thing.

we're essentially told this is the case with the emperor so I can't see why it can't also apply to primarchs

Perhaps part of Jaghatai Kahn's warp-infused special powers is that he is unnaturally light on horseback.

10+ foot primarchs is just so unfathomably stupid that I choose to ignore it

BrianDavion wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
,my headcanon is that the primarchs all have at least a toe in the warp and as such tend to make reality kind of "fuzzy" around them. So the primarch is literally twice your height, but he's also riding your horse without hurting the poor thing.

we're essentially told this is the case with the emperor so I can't see why it can't also apply to primarchs

Because biomancy isn't a free gift handed out to everyone..?

There are plenty of abilities which the Primarchs don't share with the Emperor or each other.

Andykp wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
Generally horses can effectively carry 10-20% of their bodyweight on their back. It would require a monster of a horse to support a primarch I think. In addition, most horses would likely be physically inferior to primarchs- as it currently stands, well-trained infantry can have equivalent or better strategic mobility than typical cavalry (although worse tactical mobility) because humans are superb endurance critters. Primarchs have undoubtedly superior endurance and may be quicker in an outright sprint vs gallop.

Having said that, I could see a chariot approach working. The efficiency of wheels allows a much greater weight to be pulled safely.

Edit: shires and clydesdales are breeds, not species. They are the same species as the steppe horses and even Przewalski's horse, the last remaining wild horse population.

The lion rides a horse in his origin book. Just makes a mockery of the idea of primarchs being enormous, like 10 foot. So stupid. Yiu end up with scenes like on the North Pole in elf.

To be fair, Caliban has a theoretical selection pressure for massive, tough horses because they are used explicitly as chargers for hunting huge, vicious beasties. A big horse might be helpful in toughing out attacks by a big beast.

It is at least more plausible for them to have huge warhorses already, that could support a smaller adolescent Lion.

Chogoris, on the other hand, is described as tribal steppe warfare, which we would expect to basically select for beasts similar to the real-life steppe horses- quite small, nimble, hardy, and very high endurance.

Genetic modification is a hell of a drug and whatever the beasts on Chogoris are, they won't be horses as we know them.
Hell if the original colonists of Fenris could splice wolf DNA into human DNA to the point where every single Fenrisian Wolf is actually a devolved Fenrisian, I'm willing to believe that whatever the Khan rode on Chogoris wasn't going to die every time he mounted it as a youth.
I find it weird that people are willing to accept Primarchs, Custodes, Space Marines, and Psykers but not the idea that the same genetic and biological sciences could be applied to non-sentient species in Mankind's Golden Age.

Also, keep in mind what Horses were available to Mongols of the era.

The current horses we have today? Are the result of selective breeding. Indeed it wasn’t until the Conquistadors invaded America that continent had horses. The Mongols would’ve started out with whichever local species were available.

Chogoris however came to cavalry warfare from the opposite direction - technological regression.

So whilst the people The Khan lead to dominance may not themselves have had the know-how for more than selective breeding, that’s not to say there was but a single breed of Horse on Chogoris.

As I speculated earlier? If Horses were the only or main livestock on that planet, we can reasonably expect further selective breeding and gene tampering.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also, keep in mind what Horses were available to Mongols of the era.

The current horses we have today? Are the result of selective breeding. Indeed it wasn’t until the Conquistadors invaded America that continent had horses. The Mongols would’ve started out with whichever local species were available.

Chogoris however came to cavalry warfare from the opposite direction - technological regression.

So whilst the people The Khan lead to dominance may not themselves have had the know-how for more than selective breeding, that’s not to say there was but a single breed of Horse on Chogoris.

As I speculated earlier? If Horses were the only or main livestock on that planet, we can reasonably expect further selective breeding and gene tampering.

Also, horses were domesticated ~6000 years or so ago, give or take a few hundred. All the variety in horse breeds we observe today, from huge Clydesdales and Percherons to race Horses, show horses and so on, has basically arisen in that timeframe, and that is without a good understanding of genetics for much of the time, and essentially without the ability to do direct genetic manipulation or editing. In the Warhammer 40k timeframe, these opportunities exist and an additional 4-5 times the total time span that we had horses for has elapsed. Conclusion: huge horse no biggy.

 Gert wrote:
Genetic modification is a hell of a drug and whatever the beasts on Chogoris are, they won't be horses as we know them.
Hell if the original colonists of Fenris could splice wolf DNA into human DNA to the point where every single Fenrisian Wolf is actually a devolved Fenrisian, I'm willing to believe that whatever the Khan rode on Chogoris wasn't going to die every time he mounted it as a youth.
I find it weird that people are willing to accept Primarchs, Custodes, Space Marines, and Psykers but not the idea that the same genetic and biological sciences could be applied to non-sentient species in Mankind's Golden Age.

I don't have an issue with huge GM future-horses. We know rough riders often ride heavily-modified steeds, like the DKoK Death Riders or Asgardian Rangers, so GM and bionic horses are widespread.

But big horses are unlikely to actually be useful to a steppe culture (that doesn't yet have Imperial tithes), which is why steppe nomads and pastoralists today still have small horses even though bigger horse breeds have been available for centuries. Of course, everyone on Chogoris could be riding horses that make a shire look like a fallabella, but it feels weird when they are unlikely to be as useful as smaller equines (much higher food requirements etc). At least until the miracle baby falls out of the sky and turns out to be collossal...

A culture and environment like Caliban is much more likely to have enormous horses.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also, keep in mind what Horses were available to Mongols of the era.

The current horses we have today? Are the result of selective breeding. Indeed it wasn’t until the Conquistadors invaded America that continent had horses. The Mongols would’ve started out with whichever local species were available.

Chogoris however came to cavalry warfare from the opposite direction - technological regression.

So whilst the people The Khan lead to dominance may not themselves have had the know-how for more than selective breeding, that’s not to say there was but a single breed of Horse on Chogoris.

As I speculated earlier? If Horses were the only or main livestock on that planet, we can reasonably expect further selective breeding and gene tampering.

Also, horses were domesticated ~6000 years or so ago, give or take a few hundred. All the variety in horse breeds we observe today, from huge Clydesdales and Percherons to race Horses, show horses and so on, has basically arisen in that timeframe, and that is without a good understanding of genetics for much of the time, and essentially without the ability to do direct genetic manipulation or editing. In the Warhammer 40k timeframe, these opportunities exist and an additional 4-5 times the total time span that we had horses for has elapsed. Conclusion: huge horse no biggy.

Most of that variety has arisen in the last 500-1000 years, when the concept of distinct breeds and selective breeding methods developed.

 Haighus wrote:
I don't have an issue with huge GM future-horses. We know rough riders often ride heavily-modified steeds, like the DKoK Death Riders or Asgardian Rangers, so GM and bionic horses are widespread.

But big horses are unlikely to actually be useful to a steppe culture (that doesn't yet have Imperial tithes), which is why steppe nomads and pastoralists today still have small horses even though bigger horse breeds have been available for centuries. Of course, everyone on Chogoris could be riding horses that make a shire look like a fallabella, but it feels weird when they are unlikely to be as useful as smaller equines (much higher food requirements etc). At least until the miracle baby falls out of the sky and turns out to be collossal...

A culture and environment like Caliban is much more likely to have enormous horses.

The thing is you're sticking to the idea that the tribes of Chogoris use horses when all we know is the names of the beasts and that they're used for rapid warfare. I think the only confirmed attributes we have of the beasts ridden by the Chogorians is that they were mammals and I'm not even sure of that.

 Gert wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
I don't have an issue with huge GM future-horses. We know rough riders often ride heavily-modified steeds, like the DKoK Death Riders or Asgardian Rangers, so GM and bionic horses are widespread.

But big horses are unlikely to actually be useful to a steppe culture (that doesn't yet have Imperial tithes), which is why steppe nomads and pastoralists today still have small horses even though bigger horse breeds have been available for centuries. Of course, everyone on Chogoris could be riding horses that make a shire look like a fallabella, but it feels weird when they are unlikely to be as useful as smaller equines (much higher food requirements etc). At least until the miracle baby falls out of the sky and turns out to be collossal...

A culture and environment like Caliban is much more likely to have enormous horses.

The thing is you're sticking to the idea that the tribes of Chogoris use horses when all we know is the names of the beasts and that they're used for rapid warfare. I think the only confirmed attributes we have of the beasts ridden by the Chogorians is that they were mammals and I'm not even sure of that.

Fair point. They may be huge like Mukhali.

Tsagualsa wrote:
huge horse no biggy.

I truly believe this exact line was said, in universe, by the person who procured Jaghatai Khan's horse.

It is also probably why I am not allowed to write for GW.

Clearly he needs to master gravity magic.

The lion rides out to hunt monsters on caliban, and a few shots of young guiliman at home on maccrage!

Khan: "Man I love horses. Such kind and loving animals. If you get a strong one you can even ride it more than once!"

Semi related. When Dorn found the Phalanx, was it a huge inconvenience for him to get around in it? If it was made for the average human during the Dark Age of Technology, then with Dorn being ~10 ft tall, he'd be hitting his head on every doorway and breaking chairs trying to sit in them.

People like grandiose entrances and corridors, or he deconstructed the doors to fit.
Not exactly rocket science.