Eldar Craftworlds probably have millions of Aspect Shrines

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Arschbombe**

Iracundus wrote:

Going back to the early Striking Scorpion from the novel discussion, it is weird and not something I personally agree with: Aspect Warrior that trained under Deadly Shadow shrine, where the Exarch used a power claw, becomes an Exarch and goes to become the Exarch of a new shrine where he uses the Biting Blade. One would think that the various Shrines should differ in fighting styles and a student of one style should go on to fight in that style, with only a few deciding to branch out or change styles.

The regular aspect warriors only have the basic gear. Korlandril did not train with the claw. He also did not train on the biting blade. But it doesn't matter because Korlandril ceases to be Korlandril once he dons the armor and becomes Morlaniath reborn. His spirit merges with the others and Morlaniath, being the first, is the dominant spirit. He is using Korlandril's body, but it is him picking up his biting blade,not Korlandril. When the reborn exarch meets up with Kenainath of deadly shadow, he comments about how he trained the Korlandril's body well.

The two exarchs waited for him in his private arming room, clad in loose robes, their spirit stones lighting the gloom.
"A welcome return, from the void of somnolence with new life inside," said Kenainath giving a polite bow.
Morlaniath smiled.
"It is good to return, you trained this body well; I am fully restored."

**Hellebore**

Arschbombe wrote:
Oh, cool. An new exarch discussion. Love these.

Hellebore wrote:It's a shark and fish thing. All shrines have exarchs but not all exarchs have to have shrines.

I think they do. It's where the armor is kept. It's where a new exarch is called when he becomes lost on the path. He dons the ancient armor and becomes the exarch as his spirit combines with the previous exarchs becoming the latest iteration of the first. In Path of the Warrior, Korlandril falls, is refused entry to the shrine of deadly shadow, is told to find his own shrine. He goes to the autarch chamber, sees the runes of the shrines and finds the shrine of hidden death. He goes there, dons the armor and become Morlaniath, first of seven to wear the exarch armor in that shrine. Korlandril was the eighth, but his spirit is submerged under the first. Soon his gets his first student.

Your first pupil.
One to be taught.
So soon?
Always it is so. A new exarch needs followers. The shrine calls to them.

It's called the path of the warrior, not the path of the karate instructor. Their first and foremost obsession is with warfare and perfecting their skills at it.

Exarchs are ancient. They have already mastered their skills. Only in the case of a new exarch in a new shrine would we see someone who is less than a consummate warrior.

Being lost on a path isn't constrained by property values. Hypothetically every student in a shrine could become lost on the path and become an exarch. It's a psychological consequence, not the availability of buildings or pants.

I think craftworlds function like living organisms. All members of the society are psychically attuned and react to stimuli. When a craftworld is headed towards war, the eldar will feel this in subtle ways. More eldar will start to walk the path of the warrior. More existing warriors will become lost and dormant shrines will be reawakened by them. If a craftworld requires new shrines to be built then this will be directed by the exarch council and autarchs.

The idea that someone fallen to the path of perfect warfare and murder death obsessed with honing those skills is actually really just obsessed with teaching those skills is a really bizarre take.

If anything the majority of exarchs should be lone operatives looking for battle to hone their skills, endlessly fighting. It should take an unusual type of exarch to focus on helping noobs learn to punch instead.

I think there's a distinction to be made between someone who becomes lost on the path of the warrior and someone who is tantamount to a berserker or death company.

Gert wrote:Is it a hard rule that it's one Exarch per Shrine?

Yes, I think that's clear from Path of the Warrior.

Iracundus wrote:

Gav Thorpe from his books is also clearly a follower of the small shrine concept with each shrine being 1 squad and 1 Exarch, yet also at the same time depicting shrines as relatively limited and rare.

I think that comes from the fact that he wrote a couple of eldar codices before he started writing the novels. So I think he approaches it from that angle with old school single detachment/FOC limitations in mind. The scale of what's really going on are unaddressed. Alaitoc has to have more than just 3 Striking Scorpion shrines (with just 2 active at the start of Path of the Warrior).

When Korlandril falls he goes to the Shrine of Deadly Shadow where he had trained. He is refused entry. Kenainath greets him at the door fully armed and armored:

"You have lost your way, you must find another shrine, it is tradition. The Path ends for you; Khaine has taken your spirit, you are an exarch."

"Your journey was short, but now it is completed, you must accept it. There are other shrines, empty and without leaders, one will call to you. As it was with me, as it was with all of us, those trapped on the Path. We will meet again, not as master and his pupil, but as two equals."

Korlandril ends up going to the chamber of the autarchs where he finds:

"...the long circles of runes around the central platform, each an aspect shrine. Some were worn thin by generations of feet, others as bright as the day they had been inscribed. As he circled slowly, he recognized the pattern. The oldest shrines were at the center, many of them Dire Avengers, Striking Scorpions, Howling Banshees, Swooping Hawks and Dark Reapers. There were duplicates, their runes careful variations on the parent shrines, each moving further from the dais. New runes appeared, of aspects unknown before - Crystal Dragons, Warp Spiders, Shining Spears. Outwards and onwards the history of Alaitoc's warrior past spiraled."

This gives the impression that Alaitoc has a large number of shrines, many if not most of which are dormant. This notion is reinforced by the reborn Morlaniath saying he had been dormant for three generations waiting for the next spirit to merge with him. Korlandril was the eighth. How long is an eldar generation? A thousand years? Five hundred?

Haighus wrote:
Bonesingers are the equivalent of Exarchs for the Path of the Artisan, I have been reliably informed.

I think it's actually the sub-path of the shaper/shaping FWIW.

Becoming an exarch is a psychological affect of the path system - concentrating so hard on one thing that you get lost on it. It is not controlled, that's why they fear it. Because anyone can become one. It's not a lottery.

The path of the warrior is not a teaching path. A dire avenger is not trained to teach. So why would it make sense for someone who has fallen to that path to suddenly become interested in teaching? They are priests of khaine utterly consumed with embodying the path of khaine the warrior. I'm not sure what's hard to understand about that.

Teaching is a secondary affect of being part of a shrine. Farseers aren't compelled to teach the witch path, nor are bonesingers. The fact that an exarch does isn't an intrinsic factor of being an exarch.

Nothing requires someone who has psychologically been trapped on a path to put on special path pants. They don't affect being locked on that path. They weren't wearing them when they become lost, there's no reason they couldn't continue to wear their original armour, Which is exactly how the first magic pants were created. The first exarchs wore ordinary armour, became lost, had their souls infused into their armour and when they died, it stayed there. Starting the whole process.

Ergo, there is no reason that a person becoming an exarch can't start as the first in the line, because if no one could there wouldn't be any.

Farseers, exarchs, bonesingers etc are all locked. Being locked is a psychological side effect of the path on the eldar psyche. Wearing shrine armour is a traditional outcome of becoming an exarch, not a requirement. Just as using a diresword is a traditional option for being an exarch, not a requirement.

Once psychologically trapped in that one path, an exarch focuses on perfecting their skills. They take up other weapon styles within the canon of their aspect in keeping with their phoenix lord founder's philosophy. Or they stick with their original weapons. Or they continue chasing them selves on the path, becoming menshad korum, the hunter in pursuit of themselves and never staying in one aspect.

I would say in the context of being trapped on a path, people learning how to do that path from you is a terrible idea. They are obsessed with their path, would you trust that they teach a balanced method of entering the battle trance and wearing the war mask? That's like asking an actively high junky to teach kids about drugs.

I would say that aspect warriors learn from watching and sparing with an exarch, not because he sets up lesson plans and consciously tries to teach. The exarchs would probably be spending all their time fighting each other, with students practicing around them and learning from emulating. The psychological fixation on the path is at odds with the education and patience needed to be an actual formal teacher.

**Haighus**

The Exarchs for most of the main Aspects follow the tenets of their Phoenix lords, who absolutely were teachers. If they weren't, the whole concept of Aspects would probably have died out in the first generation.

Therefore, it would not be surprising if teaching is baked into the tenets of any Aspect with a Phoenix lord, and likely into the other main Aspects. An Eldar who falls to the Path of the Warrior may choose to avoid teaching pupils, but that is probably a deviation from the traditions of most Aspects.

This makes sense, because they are Aspects of War, not of personal combat. Fighting as teams is much more consistent with warfare than being an impeccable individual combatant, and an Exarch would need to induct the warriors under their command into their ways of war to form an effective combat unit. Any Aspect that focussed on personal prowess at the exclusion of teamwork and teaching probably disappeared due to having no followers to maintain the Aspect. Such Exarchs could even be considered outcasts and dangerous and forced away from the Craftworld- why tolerate a murder addict who is unwilling to contribute to the craftworld as a whole?

Mere observation and imitation also sounds like a poor way to learn, on the the whole.

I also don't think obsessive practitioners are necessarily bad or uninterested teachers. I have learnt much from the knowledge of utterly work-obsessed senior colleagues, even if I can recognise that they live in a manner that is harmful to their work-life balance. Eldar obviously take this to the extreme, but they also recognise the risks.

**Daba**

I would say maybe the priest/warrior monk side of them reflects into being a sort of teacher the best. The oldest exarchs (i.e. the Phoenix Lords) would teach and spread the shrines around so it's a complex subject.

**shortymcnostrill**

Haighus wrote:
The Exarchs for most of the main Aspects follow the tenets of their Phoenix lords, who absolutely were teachers. If they weren't, the whole concept of Aspects would probably have died out in the first generation.

Yeah that makes sense, I'm convinced. This means non-teaching murder exarchs should be very rare at best. Well put!

**Arschbombe**

Hellebore wrote:

Becoming an exarch is a psychological affect of the path system - concentrating so hard on one thing that you get lost on it. It is not controlled, that's why they fear it. Because anyone can become one. It's not a lottery.

It kind of is a lottery. Most who walk the path of the warrior do not succumb. Only a few do.

The path of the warrior is not a teaching path. A dire avenger is not trained to teach. So why would it make sense for someone who has fallen to that path to suddenly become interested in teaching? They are priests of khaine utterly consumed with embodying the path of khaine the warrior. I'm not sure what's hard to understand about that.

The fluff does not support your argument. Not sure what's so hard to understand about that.

The new exarch does not suddenly develop an interest in teaching. When he enters a shrine and dons the armor he is no longer himself. He is an amalgam of all who have worn the suit with the first being the dominant spirit and the name by which he will be known. The old exarch is reborn. The new one fades into the background.

Nothing requires someone who has psychologically been trapped on a path to put on special path pants. They don't affect being locked on that path. They weren't wearing them when they become lost, there's no reason they couldn't continue to wear their original armour, Which is exactly how the first magic pants were created. The first exarchs wore ordinary armour, became lost, had their souls infused into their armour and when they died, it stayed there. Starting the whole process.

Ergo, there is no reason that a person becoming an exarch can't start as the first in the line, because if no one could there wouldn't be any.

They could be wearing the pants when they fall. In fact I'd say they always are, but they just don't realize it. They don the war mask for battle and when they return they cannot take it off. Thus they are trapped. It may not be recognized until later as in the novel. Korlandril starts stalking people and speaks openly of killing. Not sure of what has happened to him he runs to the shrine where he is rejected as exarch. Kenainath tells him what to do which leads him to becoming Morlaniath in the shrine of Hidden Death. But we can posit a few other possibilities for how the process might run.

Firstly, a newly lost warrior could be detected by his exarch when they are disarming after a battle. He may note that the warrior is unable to shed his war mask and direct him to find a new shrine then. Alternately, the warrior could leave the shrine still with his war mask in place undetected at first as Korlandril did, but instead of fleeing back to his old shrine he attempts to escape perhaps on a ship or into the webway. Not sure how viable a course of action this would be since he wouldn't have access to his aspect armor or weapons. Maybe he ends up as an incubi in Commorragh. Maybe he becomes a murderer in the craftworld until hunted down, which I suspect wouldn't take long.

If the shrines are all taken and he is to become first of a new line, a new shrine, then this would be enabled by the phoenix lord, who likely would have appeared in anticipation of his fall and prepared a shrine for the new exarch. The phoenix lord would train the exarch in the exarch weapons which would end with the exarch taking the ritual weapon of his choice. The lord would also impart leadership and training fundamentals so that the exarch would be ready for his first student. Somewhere in there he would arrange for a new suit of armor.

Once psychologically trapped in that one path, an exarch focuses on perfecting their skills. They take up other weapon styles within the canon of their aspect in keeping with their phoenix lord founder's philosophy. Or they stick with their original weapons. Or they continue chasing them selves on the path, becoming menshad korum, the hunter in pursuit of themselves and never staying in one aspect.

Menshad Korum is no longer canon. Hasn't been for decades. The only ones who can tread more than one warrior path are those destined for the path of command, the autarchs. The name autarch denotes self-suffficiency, self mastery which is why they are able to walk many warrior paths without falling.

shortymcnostrill wrote:
Haighus wrote:
The Exarchs for most of the main Aspects follow the tenets of their Phoenix lords, who absolutely were teachers. If they weren't, the whole concept of Aspects would probably have died out in the first generation.

Yeah that makes sense, I'm convinced. This means non-teaching murder exarchs should be very rare at best. Well put!

I'm trying to figure out how a murder exarch actually works out. He can't get back into his shrine to get his armor and weapons. Presumably he can't steal weapons from the other shrines without becoming an old exarch reborn. So where does he go? What can he do? Maybe if had served as a guardian he steal some gear from their armories. But he's cut off from the infinity circuit so that's probably out. Maybe he'd be useful to the craftworld as a future young king. He is exarch, so he can be used to wake the avatar. Where do they park him in the meantime?

**pelicaniforce**

I guess Arschbombe is a really good poster, I wasn’t expecting to find one of those this year.

As far as I know, the concept of paths in general is attributed to Asurmen, and even the civilian paths exist because of his idea. Separately, in the recent Asurmen novel a chaos daemon appears to recognize him as a type of daemon. Exarch suits appear to exist because the rest of the craft world wants to keep their corrupted souls from infecting the main infinity circuit, so we could extend this daemonhood to exarchs. A large motivation of daemons is to propagate its way of thinking among mortals, so I think training followers is an essential quality of exarchs. For an exarch it’s like breathing.

Arschbombe wrote:

I think craftworlds function like living organisms. All members of the society are psychically attuned and react to stimuli. When a craftworld is headed towards war, the eldar will feel this in subtle ways. More eldar will start to walk the path of the warrior. More existing warriors will become lost and dormant shrines will be reawakened by them. If a craftworld requires new shrines to be built then this will be directed by the exarch council and autarchs.
.

Happy to see this. It’s in keeping with the original model for Avatars being Eldar-sized, and a kind of Porto-exarch suit hooked into the whole infinity circuit. The modern statue form of Avatar is still hooked into the infinity circuit and wakes partly because the craftworld social consciousness is stirring to war.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah, I’m sure a Murder Exarch is already wearing his armour when he becomes such, and so are any new exarchs. This happens in the Gordon Rennie novel Shadowpoint (like USD $60 second hand) where a character becomes a new exarch during combat.

**Daba**

The original mini-Avatar's concept got distributed to the Exarchs and Phoenix lords. In the first time it was written, the spirit stones on it were all the Young Kings who all add to the experiences of an avatar. In today's description 'no one knows but the Farseers' what happens to the Young Kings [but it's blatantly the same thing, just not explicit].

Automatically Appended Next Post:
With Exarchs founding a new shrine, I kind of like the idea that he just wonders somewhere deep in the craftworld, piles up a bunch of rocks as his own dedication to Khaine and starts training. In this dedication, it's felt across the craftworld, and a few who are attracted to the aspect of war seek him out and find him. They build up from the pile of rocks a more complex shrine structure and start learning there. The Exarch is happy to pass on any skills, as a combat enthusiast and enjoyer, but they must approach him first. And they do.

**Haighus**

Exarchs and particularly Phoenix lords being daemon princes of Khaine is an interesting concept. I can see some merit to that idea, but they are not far enough along to be treated as daemons in game rules (unlike the Avatar).

One thing that always struck me is that the first Exarch always seems to be the strongest-willed of the spirits inhabiting the armour. However, presumably it is possible for a particularly dominant soul to don the armour and overpower the older spirits and remain themselves, instead taking the other spirits as advisary components of themselves rather than becoming such themselves. I imagine this would be rare as the oldest spirit has the longest time to cement their sense of self, but appears possible.

**Gene St. Ealer**

I just wanted to jump in and say that this is the best thread on dakka right now. 40k the game may have lost the plot, but lore and discussions like this keep me coming back for more even if I no longer feel like playing the game.

**Wyldhunt**

Haighus wrote:
Exarchs and particularly Phoenix lords being daemon princes of Khaine is an interesting concept. I can see some merit to that idea, but they are not far enough along to be treated as daemons in game rules (unlike the Avatar).

One thing that always struck me is that the first Exarch always seems to be the strongest-willed of the spirits inhabiting the armour. However, presumably it is possible for a particularly dominant soul to don the armour and overpower the older spirits and remain themselves, instead taking the other spirits as advisary components of themselves rather than becoming such themselves. I imagine this would be rare as the oldest spirit has the longest time to cement their sense of self, but appears possible.

Theoretically possible, but I've always had the impression that the first exarch being the dominant personality had less to do with their willpower and was more an implied function of their armor. That is, I get the impression that exarch armor intentionally puts the first exarch's spirit in the driver's seat so that the oldest and most experienced personality is the one doing the combat moves; not one of the younger personalities with a fraction of the first-hand experience.

Some questions I have about exarchs:
* Can the gestalt soul be separated out? Like, if you download one of the souls from the suit, can you put it in a different suit or wraith lord? I think the answer is yes given that Iyanna Arienell's wraith lord friend is a dragon exarch whose suit was destroyed, and he *seems* to be a singular soul rather than a gestalt iirc.
* We know that past wearers of the exarch suit can bicker like past Avatar lives in a Tiktok meme. If Roku and Kyoshi have enough of a falling out inside the suit, could they end up requesting that one of them be transferred into a new vessel?
* When a new exarch comes to be, there's a period of time where there are only a few souls in the suit instead of a whole crowd of them. I wonder what that experience is like. When you're the second wearer of the suit, is your personality have more sway over the first exarch's than subsequent wearers will?
* At what point do you become eligible for Young King duty? Like, if you're an exarch whose gestalt only contains like, 3 souls, are you considered an especially appealing or unappealing candidate?

And yes. This thread is great. I wish I'd jumped in sooner because everyone else has made all my best points for me.

**Haighus**

Wyldhunt wrote:
Haighus wrote:
Exarchs and particularly Phoenix lords being daemon princes of Khaine is an interesting concept. I can see some merit to that idea, but they are not far enough along to be treated as daemons in game rules (unlike the Avatar).

One thing that always struck me is that the first Exarch always seems to be the strongest-willed of the spirits inhabiting the armour. However, presumably it is possible for a particularly dominant soul to don the armour and overpower the older spirits and remain themselves, instead taking the other spirits as advisary components of themselves rather than becoming such themselves. I imagine this would be rare as the oldest spirit has the longest time to cement their sense of self, but appears possible.

Theoretically possible, but I've always had the impression that the first exarch being the dominant personality had less to do with their willpower and was more an implied function of their armor. That is, I get the impression that exarch armor intentionally puts the first exarch's spirit in the driver's seat so that the oldest and most experienced personality is the one doing the combat moves; not one of the younger personalities with a fraction of the first-hand experience.

Some questions I have about exarchs:
* Can the gestalt soul be separated out? Like, if you download one of the souls from the suit, can you put it in a different suit or wraith lord? I think the answer is yes given that Iyanna Arienell's wraith lord friend is a dragon exarch whose suit was destroyed, and he *seems* to be a singular soul rather than a gestalt iirc.
* We know that past wearers of the exarch suit can bicker like past Avatar lives in a Tiktok meme. If Roku and Kyoshi have enough of a falling out inside the suit, could they end up requesting that one of them be transferred into a new vessel?
* When a new exarch comes to be, there's a period of time where there are only a few souls in the suit instead of a whole crowd of them. I wonder what that experience is like. When you're the second wearer of the suit, is your personality have more sway over the first exarch's than subsequent wearers will?
* At what point do you become eligible for Young King duty? Like, if you're an exarch whose gestalt only contains like, 3 souls, are you considered an especially appealing or unappealing candidate?

And yes. This thread is great. I wish I'd jumped in sooner because everyone else has made all my best points for me.

There are so many questions. For example, lets say Yriel had become an Exarch instead of an Autarch (is this still possible?). He seems like an especially forceful personality, would he be subsumed into the dominant personality? What if someone with the force of will of Jain Zar or Asurmen came along?

I kind of always assumed that some fancy Aeldari version of drawing lots was used for selecting the sacrifice to Khaine.

I wonder if souls that don't get along just get knocked into line by the head honcho soul.

**Iracundus**

Wyldhunt wrote:

* At what point do you become eligible for Young King duty? Like, if you're an exarch whose gestalt only contains like, 3 souls, are you considered an especially appealing or unappealing candidate?

The sacrifice is an Aspect Warrior not an Exarch. There has been a tug of war over the various editions by writers, but it is now back to Aspect Warrior.

Thematically however it makes more sense than an Exarch. Why? The sacrifice of the Young King is basically a symbolic re-enactment of the death of Eldanesh, the Eldar Adam figure whose title was the Young King, at the hands of Khaine after Eldanesh took up Anaris, the sword reforged by Vaul. It also symbolically represents the sacrifice of Eldar innocence to the cause of bloodshed and war. Thus it is symbolically more in keeping with that for an "innocent" (i.e. one not yet Trapped) to be sacrificed than one that is already effectively Khaine's (i.e. an Exarch).

**Arschbombe**

pelicaniforce wrote:
Oh yeah, I’m sure a Murder Exarch is already wearing his armour when he becomes such, and so are any new exarchs. This happens in the Gordon Rennie novel Shadowpoint (like USD $60 second hand) where a character becomes a new exarch during combat.

I see that book for around $30. Is it any good? It's from the C.S. Goto era. How much Eldar content is in it?

Haighus wrote:Exarchs and particularly Phoenix lords being daemon princes of Khaine is an interesting concept. I can see some merit to that idea, but they are not far enough along to be treated as daemons in game rules (unlike the Avatar).

Hadn't thought of them like that before either. I think it might fit for the phoenix lords, but not for exarchs. For me another term for daemon is warp entity. I don't think that works for an exarch which is clearly a dude in a suit with spiritstones and a composite identity. The phoenix lords, on the other hand, could just be animated, soul-powered suits kind of like an eldar version of a daemon host.

One thing that always struck me is that the first Exarch always seems to be the strongest-willed of the spirits inhabiting the armour. However, presumably it is possible for a particularly dominant soul to don the armour and overpower the older spirits and remain themselves, instead taking the other spirits as advisary components of themselves rather than becoming such themselves. I imagine this would be rare as the oldest spirit has the longest time to cement their sense of self, but appears possible.

Two possibilities immediately come to mind. One is that a new exarch goes to a shrine that has had only one owner and he is a stronger will than the original and takes over. The second is someone who gets trapped on the warrior path after having been on the path of the seer. They would come into the psychic marriage with enough oomph to overpower the original inhabitants. Unlike most, they probably know what to expect when it comes time to put on the exarch armor.

So I can imagine a scenario where some exarchs go to visit a reborn colleague as Kenainath and Aranarha did to Morlaniath. They show up at the shrine in their robes. But to their shock they are greeted by the new exarch instead of the old:

The two exarchs, Donseth and Elamdrad waited for him in his private arming room, clad in loose robes, their spirit stones lighting the gloom. They had come expecting reunion with Daldras.
"A welcome return, from the void of somnolence with new life inside," said Elamdrad giving a polite bow.
Esardor gave a wry smile.
"You trained my body well; I am invigorated with the others."
"Daldras, are you not restored?" asked Donseth warily.
"He is here."
"Are you not Daldras reborn?"
"We are Esardor. Daldras is here. We are many. We are one. You know this."
"But Daldras is Deadly Bite! He was the first!" Elamdrad exclaimed. "He was trained by Karandras! He is skilled with the claw. You have never used it! How can you.."
"We have all the skills we need. We remember our training well. And well we remember fighting alongside Lethal Grace in ages past. I am Deadly Bite. You know why we have returned. I must prepare. New pupils will soon come to Deadly Bite. When the time comes I will see you at council."
Nonplussed, the two exarchs nodded and left.

Gene St. Ealer wrote:40k the game may have lost the plot, but lore and discussions like this keep me coming back for more even if I no longer feel like playing the game.

Agreed. I haven't played since 6th. I did get into KT2018, but the current versions squad building sapped all my interest. I still like the models and discussing the lore.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Theoretically possible, but I've always had the impression that the first exarch being the dominant personality had less to do with their willpower and was more an implied function of their armor. That is, I get the impression that exarch armor intentionally puts the first exarch's spirit in the driver's seat so that the oldest and most experienced personality is the one doing the combat moves; not one of the younger personalities with a fraction of the first-hand experience.

Some questions I have about exarchs:
* Can the gestalt soul be separated out? Like, if you download one of the souls from the suit, can you put it in a different suit or wraith lord? I think the answer is yes given that Iyanna Arienell's wraith lord friend is a dragon exarch whose suit was destroyed, and he *seems* to be a singular soul rather than a gestalt iirc.
* We know that past wearers of the exarch suit can bicker like past Avatar lives in a Tiktok meme. If Roku and Kyoshi have enough of a falling out inside the suit, could they end up requesting that one of them be transferred into a new vessel?
* When a new exarch comes to be, there's a period of time where there are only a few souls in the suit instead of a whole crowd of them. I wonder what that experience is like. When you're the second wearer of the suit, is your personality have more sway over the first exarch's than subsequent wearers will?

I like the questions. I can imagine the hilarity in the autarch council chambers when the lone exarch asks for a divorce from some of his spirits. Have we seen anything to indicate transferring from stone to stone is possible?

Exarch spirit seniority is interesting. What if it goes not in sequential order, but in years of service? Like spirit number 2 only served 200 years before falling in battle. Spirit 3 served for 300 before dying in a battle and thus has more experience and seniority in the internal pecking order.

And here's my question. What happens when male and female spirits are mixed within an exarch? Or is that something that the eldar actively prevent?

So much unexplored potential in the Eldar Path.

**Nevelon**

IIRC, spirits are coaxed from the infinity circuit, into waystones for use in wraith constructs. Basically pulling an individual out of the pool. If we view the suit of exarch armor as a mini-circuit, the same could be possible?

It might be all sorts of taboo, but probably doable without any major bending of the lore IMHO

**Wyldhunt**

Arschbombe wrote:

I like the questions. I can imagine the hilarity in the autarch council chambers when the lone exarch asks for a divorce from some of his spirits. Have we seen anything to indicate transferring from stone to stone is possible?

What Nevelon said. Plus, the way the Path of the Warrior describes things, it seems like the composite souls inside an exarch or even phoenix lord suit retain their individuality (even if they're sort of lost in the ocean of other souls), so I don't think we'd have to worry about the component souls like... fusing or anything. Theoretically, you should be able to coax an individual spirit back into a stone and then stick that stone in a new suit or a wraith construct or whatever. Although I imagine the exarch as a whole would generally be reluctant to give up the experience (points) associated with that soul.

Exarch spirit seniority is interesting. What if it goes not in sequential order, but in years of service? Like spirit number 2 only served 200 years before falling in battle. Spirit 3 served for 300 before dying in a battle and thus has more experience and seniority in the internal pecking order.

Huh. Good question. I could also see different merits of a given individual being in charge being a factor. Like, sure, Jeff spent twice as many years actively on combat fields, but Bob is the one who founded the Cutting Cubes of Zanatos aspect. Then again, craftworlders generally seem to be pretty good at cooperating as ghosts. Look at the widespread use of things like spirit stones as a vehicle upgrade. Maybe they just naturally ease into a cooperative gestalt most of the time.

And here's my question. What happens when male and female spirits are mixed within an exarch? Or is that something that the eldar actively prevent?

Pretty sure some of the souls in Morlaniath were women. I don't imagine there's much to it. If the eldar language has gendered pronouns (it's implied to based on how things are translated and the fact that there's a "Matriarchy of Iybraesil"), I imagine they probably use the pronouns of the dominant personality. Or maybe there's a separate set of neutral or exarch-specific pronouns. Exarch suits seem to be either adjustable enough or outright shape-shifty enough to handle any physiological differences between wearers. And aside from that, I don't think most craftworlders think much about the sex or gender of their murderous dojo dwellers.

"Are you a boy or a girl?"
"I am the damnation of a hundred souls and the ending of a billion lives."
"But what's in your pants?"
"Extra shurikens."

Hadn't thought of them like that before either. I think it might fit for the phoenix lords, but not for exarchs. For me another term for daemon is warp entity. I don't think that works for an exarch which is clearly a dude in a suit with spiritstones and a composite identity. The phoenix lords, on the other hand, could just be animated, soul-powered suits kind of like an eldar version of a daemon host.

I think of it as exarchs essentially being marked by Khaine in a similar fashion to how harlies are bound to Cegorach or cult marines are bound to their respective chaos gods. Basically, fixating on the philosophies and paradigms of their aspect puts them "in synch" with Khaine and allows them to manifest aspect-specific warp phenomena. So a dragon exarch can wreathe his hands in flame and punch through ceramite (the flaming fist exarch power), a scorpion exarch becomes more difficult to perceive, etc. Sort of the eldar version of ork vehicles going faster when painted red; it's a naturally-occurring psyhci phenomena tied to their mental state.

Phoenix Lords are probably doing something similar, but they also seem to have a little something extra going on. There are hints of divine intervention from Asuryan in the Asurmen and Jain Zar novels, and apparently Phoenix Lords bend fate and screw with predictions in a way that exarchs don't. And then there's the fact that the Phoenix Lords are figures of widespread legend. Their reputations/the perceptions of other eldar might functionally be elevating them to a more supernatural status by virtue of being legendary heroes with strong symbolic motifs. Maybe Fuegan has more supernatural fire magic going on than he otherwise would because other eldar think about him and associate him with the symbolic motifs of fire and dragons.

**General Kroll**

Just started reading Valedor by Guy Haley and what’s really striking is just how empty Craftworld Iyanden is. Obviously they are a bit of a special case because of the triple woe that has caused many deaths on the Craftworld.

However, craftworlds are huge and the Eldar are a dying race, it’s not a stretch to think that most craftworlds are not filled to the brim with population.

**Haighus**

I have been pondering the daemon analogy.

Arguably Exarch suits (and spirit stones in general) are more akin to daemon weapons (and other bound daemons) rather than daemon princes. They are a warp entity (a soul) bound into a physical object to tether it to the material realm.

Exarchs being self-actuating daemon-weapons of Khaine is an evocative image.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Might also depend on exactly where you draw the line between a Daemon and a soul somehow able to remain conscious and whole within the warp.

Phoenix Lords and Exarchs are, perhaps, more accurately described as the most sophisticated iteration of Eldar Spirit Warrior technology. Kind of.

I mean, so far as I’m aware (as ever folks, correct me if I’m wrong, spesh with a citation because we all love a good citation!) the Phoenix and Exarch suits aren’t noted for walking around on their own. They need an occupant. And it could be argued the occupant serves as a dedicated Spirit Seer for the souls contained within the relic suits?

All speculation on my behalf, but with at least a foot in established background. As ever happy to admit I’m wrong if folk have a more informed source

Automatically Appended Next Post:

General Kroll wrote:
Just started reading Valedor by Guy Haley and what’s really striking is just how empty Craftworld Iyanden is. Obviously they are a bit of a special case because of the triple woe that has caused many deaths on the Craftworld.

However, craftworlds are huge and the Eldar are a dying race, it’s not a stretch to think that most craftworlds are not filled to the brim with population.

I’ve not read that book, and it’s not currently on my list. But as you say, Craftworlds are vast. So being surprisingly empty is still relative.

For instance. If its current maximum occupant capacity is say…..1 trillion Eldar. And its current occupancy is….10 billion? It would seem all but deserted, despite still have a comparatively vast population, because said 10 billion are a mere sliver of what it could carry.

**pelicaniforce**

Shadow Point is a top recommend for 40k and craftworlders. It has an Avatar in a side plot, by itself, it has a two craftworlders in the main cast, and there’s a villain pov who also interacts with eldar. Also it’s above average for bl as a novel, in terms of characters, pacing, dialogue. I was genuinely invested I what happens to the various characters and their interpersonal conflicts. Brief visit to a planet of ratlings, for what that’s worth.

On Exarchs I offer this from Epic Swordwind.

[list][on exarchs] Once put on the suit is never removed and becomes a permanent part of the eldar, its psycho-plastic form meshing with his tissues. If slain the warrior's suit will be found to be empty, his tissues having been long since been consumed within the suit itself. Exarch suits are studded with spirit stones of all the eldar which have ever worn the suit. Their spirits continue to circulate through the psycho supportive environment of the suit like a miniature version of the infinity circuit of the craftworld. It is the presence of this spirit pool of raw psychic energy that gives the suit and the warrior (for the two are indistinguishable) their special warrior powers.

As far as I know the head writers for this were jervis Johnson and Andy chambers but no promises

On the other hand, Jain Zar has recently died and left a body in the suit.

Deceased Eldar having separable personalities is might only be superficial. The reason they’re segregated from the infinity circuit is that like someone who’s chaos corrupted, they’ve lost a lot of self actualization

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Ta for that

Both could be true. I can see the suit’s slowly devouring the wearer. Or indeed allowing their consciousness to continue animating the suit long after their body perished and rotted away. Jain Zar in the example offered could simply have been a particularly and brutally short intern’s experience, as in they hadn’t been Jain Zar long enough the body to be discarded.

Certainly I don’t think it points to the occupant’s physical form being actively ravaged by the suit?

**General Kroll**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

General Kroll wrote:
Just started reading Valedor by Guy Haley and what’s really striking is just how empty Craftworld Iyanden is. Obviously they are a bit of a special case because of the triple woe that has caused many deaths on the Craftworld.

However, craftworlds are huge and the Eldar are a dying race, it’s not a stretch to think that most craftworlds are not filled to the brim with population.

I’ve not read that book, and it’s not currently on my list. But as you say, Craftworlds are vast. So being surprisingly empty is still relative.

For instance. If its current maximum occupant capacity is say…..1 trillion Eldar. And its current occupancy is….10 billion? It would seem all but deserted, despite still have a comparatively vast population, because said 10 billion are a mere sliver of what it could carry.

So far I’m enjoying it. There’s a lot in there about Iyanden society and how they interact with the numerous wraith constructs. There’s also talk of how many of the occupants have abandoned large sections in order to live nearer to each other preferring a sense of community than what could be a lonely existence. This is likely down to the losses incurred by the Tyranid invasion, but it’s interesting none the less.

One of the Farseers also expresses concern about how many people are having to follow the path of the warrior, and is concerned that the Craftworld will lack those devoted to more civilian lifestyles.

**Daba**

pelicaniforce wrote:
Shadow Point is a top recommend for 40k and craftworlders. It has an Avatar in a side plot, by itself, it has a two craftworlders in the main cast, and there’s a villain pov who also interacts with eldar. Also it’s above average for bl as a novel, in terms of characters, pacing, dialogue. I was genuinely invested I what happens to the various characters and their interpersonal conflicts. Brief visit to a planet of ratlings, for what that’s worth.

On Exarchs I offer this from Epic Swordwind.

[list][on exarchs] Once put on the suit is never removed and becomes a permanent part of the eldar, its psycho-plastic form meshing with his tissues. If slain the warrior's suit will be found to be empty, his tissues having been long since been consumed within the suit itself. Exarch suits are studded with spirit stones of all the eldar which have ever worn the suit. Their spirits continue to circulate through the psycho supportive environment of the suit like a miniature version of the infinity circuit of the craftworld. It is the presence of this spirit pool of raw psychic energy that gives the suit and the warrior (for the two are indistinguishable) their special warrior powers.

As far as I know the head writers for this were jervis Johnson and Andy chambers but no promises

On the other hand, Jain Zar has recently died and left a body in the suit.

Deceased Eldar having separable personalities is might only be superficial. The reason they’re segregated from the infinity circuit is that like someone who’s chaos corrupted, they’ve lost a lot of self actualization

The Epic Swordwind one looks like the 2nd edition description. In 4th edition, the Exarch entry changed this section in particular, but left earlier paragraphs the same (verbatim if I recall), so it looked like this was changed in particular for normal exarchs.

Zar leaving a body in the suit would be a change the Phoenix Lords AFAIK though. It makes them seem too much like regular exarchs, where they had rules that represented the 'living armour' (i.e. eternal warrior, and later the wound cap).

The Phoenix Lords (and Exarchs) as 'daemons' works in a sort of way that they are as much 'ideas' as they are a physical fighting armour and a bunch of minds/souls together. Asurmen plays a 'role' and maybe founded it with the paths with these 'roles' because as they take action and look like mythical heroes, people believe they are mythical heroes, and when people believe they are mythical heroes, they become real mythical heroes. All Aspect Warriors are shades of this, and spookily, GW giving them all invulnerable saves now (even if it's just their aspect armour) leans into this inadvertently. Perhaps it's a concept that could be taken further to show the supernatural Aspect Warrior, then Exarch powers.