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Every new edition I have a few different "lists" I try to make to see whats up - Deathwing and Ravenwing only, a full company of Space Marines, a few others.

I think we're closer to the full company in 2,000 points than we've been in a long time.
I usually try and make it 50/50 Primaris/Firstborn, and based on shoulderpads not necessarily FOC Slot (which no longer exists anyway. Mostly).

Primaris Captain
Primaris LT
Chaplain
LT

Tac Squad
Tac Squad
Tac Squad
Intercessors
Heavy Intercessors
Infiltrators (Battle Line shoulder, Other FOC slot)

Assault Intercessors (Battle Line FOC Slot, Close Assault Shoulderpad)
Assault Squad with Jump Packs

Desolators
Devastators


100 Marines, 1 Cap, 1 Chap, 2 LT. 2270 points. I think in 9th it was closer to 2500. Going full old school 60 Tacs, 20 Jump Assaults, 20 Devs, Firstborn Cap, Chap, 2x LT is 2220. That's a somewhat deceptive price difference because while the HINTS are significantly more than the Tac Squad, the Jump Assaults are also significantly more than the Assault Intercessors.

I don't know what the rest of you make of it, if anything. I just like that we're getting closer to the Full Company army again.

And yet you went from a full, Imperial Guard doctrinal company of Russes to not being able to run one...

... Interesting, that.

Did you include wargear in 8th edition? I made a list using 9th edition pts, Monoliths got a lot more expensive (probably fairly so) so the list didn't pan out in 10th.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
And yet you went from a full, Imperial Guard doctrinal company of Russes to not being able to run one...

... Interesting, that.

What do you mean?

 vict0988 wrote:
Did you include wargear in 8th edition? I made a list using 9th edition pts, Monoliths got a lot more expensive (probably fairly so) so the list didn't pan out in 10th.

Yeah, I think I usually gave them box art loadouts or something intelligent if it was close in points.

While you could get a full company into lower point games before, it was always a struggle. You want some extras, like transports, support characters, dreads, etc. And in prior editions a healthy amount of warger upgrades.

I think the last time I put a full company on the table was in 5th, for a 3k each apoc game. I’ve theorycrafted other lists, just a blue tide of bodies, but nothing practical. A 50+ body demi-co is much more practical.

I should have my full primaris battle company done some time in 10th. Probably not this year though.

 vict0988 wrote:
Did you include wargear in 8th edition? I made a list using 9th edition pts, Monoliths got a lot more expensive (probably fairly so) so the list didn't pan out in 10th.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
And yet you went from a full, Imperial Guard doctrinal company of Russes to not being able to run one...

... Interesting, that.

What do you mean?

I mean you can't run the 10 leman Russ tanks that are standard for an IG tank company, like you used to be able to.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
And yet you went from a full, Imperial Guard doctrinal company of Russes to not being able to run one...

I'm fairly sure you can: 3 Punishers, 3 Eradicators, 3 Vanquishers, and 1 Tank Commander comes out at 1890 points. So you can go 3 Battle Tanks, 3 Executioners, and 3 Vanquishers for a fluffy "fire support" style armored company and give the Tank Commander Grand Strategist because you will need it, and there you go: a 2000 points army.

He means you can’t run more than 3 Battle Cannon Russes, unless some are Tank Commanders, because the Leman Russ Battle Tank is not Battleline.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
Did you include wargear in 8th edition? I made a list using 9th edition pts, Monoliths got a lot more expensive (probably fairly so) so the list didn't pan out in 10th.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
And yet you went from a full, Imperial Guard doctrinal company of Russes to not being able to run one...

... Interesting, that.

What do you mean?

I mean you can't run the 10 leman Russ tanks that are standard for an IG tank company, like you used to be able to.

Not 10 of the same, but with all the variants on different datasheets, you could still get a lot of treads onto a list without hitting the rule of 3.

Although I get the classic guard deployment enjoys a decent amount of homogeneity from a fluff POV.

Having an entire squadron of Vanquishers is a big ask, and "back in the day" Tank Commanders/Aces were mostly squadron commanders, not company commanders, so you really need 4 of them, one with the Drill Master relic, to represent the old-style (4th edition) Guard tank company.

(Fyi the structure was Command Tank HQ, Tank Ace elites, and tanks as troops choices were 0-2 per Command Tank or Tank Ace. This meant that you could run 10 tanks, 4 of whom were "commanders", and then for every commander you could take his 2 squadron mates, leaving the last to be the company commander).

Plus, the Tank Commander HQ selection cost 65 points more than the Tank Ace elites section, meaning you pretty much HAD to do this structure - it never made sense to take 5 commander tanks, because you were at least 65 if not 130 points overpaying, which meant you got fewer Russes.

It was a marvel how they used the game design (points, FOC, and bespoke restrictions) to encourage but not mandate a doctrinal guard Armored Company.

The current tank company commander, based on the number of orders he can give, must be a squadron command tank. You can pay for Drill Master to approximate a company commander, but you simply don't have enough points for what you need.

Plus, your example uses some specialist tanks to be cheap as chips (vanquishers and punishers). Try running Demolishers and Exterminators instead (much more fluffy for armored units, since the exterminator is typically used in a recon/maneuver role and Demolishers are a better assault tank than Punishers) and see how it works out. Vanquishers are rare and hyperspecialized, and Punishers are hyperspecialized the other direction.

Captain 80
Tactical Squads x6 1050
Assault Squads w/Packs x2 460
Devastator Squads x2 400

1990

You could drop the Jump Packs for both Assault Squads and get a Chaplain in there if you wanted. But eff that guy, he's always yelling out some crazy ***t.

 alextroy wrote:
He means you can’t run more than 3 Battle Cannon Russes, unless some are Tank Commanders, because the Leman Russ Battle Tank is not Battleline.

And russ companies only run battle cannons?

tneva82 wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
He means you can’t run more than 3 Battle Cannon Russes, unless some are Tank Commanders, because the Leman Russ Battle Tank is not Battleline.

And russ companies only run battle cannons?

They tend to run them in much greater proportion - they are lucky to have more than one squadron of something other than the Big Three: Main, Demolisher, and Exterminator.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Captain 80
Tactical Squads x6 1050
Assault Squads w/Packs x2 460
Devastator Squads x2 400

1990

You could drop the Jump Packs for both Assault Squads and get a Chaplain in there if you wanted. But eff that guy, he's always yelling out some crazy ***t.

The fact that you think it’s OK to drop the Chaplain means you need to spend more time listening to “some craxy “ he’s yelling. Shame

I’d rather march my assault troops alongside their brothers, shoulder to shoulder, than disrespect the legacy of the chapter by leaving the Chaplain behind.

--

Still lacking the command elements, dreads and transports, but sounds like a lot of fun just to toss a full company down. They may be footslogging, but that’s a lot of boots on the ground.

We march for Macragge!

2K is the points level for a supplemented demi-company of Marines. You have points for half the line marines along with command elements, vehicles, and seconded units from the Veteran and Reserve Companies. 3K gets you to the full company level.

AFAIK the Chaplain thing only even became a "thing" for the 7th ed Demi-Company Formation. Otherwise they were just supernumaries alongside the Ancients and Apothecaries. I can't recall offhand if the Librarians and Techmarines were also assigned to individual Companies org. I don't think they were.

These days I suppose the more appropriate secondary command model would be the Lt.

 alextroy wrote:
2K is the points level for a supplemented demi-company of Marines. You have points for half the line marines along with command elements, vehicles, and seconded units from the Veteran and Reserve Companies. 3K gets you to the full company level.

You are not wrong. From a practical POV, you get a much more “realistic” fleshed out demi-co at 2k. I just fine it amusing that you could field a legit company at that level as well. No whistles or bells, not even any of the company level assets which should be present. Just 100 battle-brothers, and a commander (or two) to lead them.

I’ve done “blue tide” lists before, and outnumbered necrons and orcs. It’s a silly turnabout, but fun.

^I've found the 70+ Marine army to be one of the more competetive builds, personally. I've hovered at 70-80 for most of post 7th.

 Insectum7 wrote:
AFAIK the Chaplain thing only even became a "thing" for the 7th ed Demi-Company Formation. Otherwise they were just supernumaries alongside the Ancients and Apothecaries. I can't recall offhand if the Librarians and Techmarines were also assigned to individual Companies org. I don't think they were.

These days I suppose the more appropriate secondary command model would be the Lt.

Librarians and Techmarines have (almost?) always been chapter level assets. They might have snuck in at the company level in one codex. If they did, I just ignored it as heresy.

Before Lts were returned to the command structure, chaplains were the closest thing companies had to a second in command. Each company had their own, and they were the lead from the front spiritual leader type. I know it was cemented in 7th with formations, but it was stuck in my head as fact since 3rd+ at the very least. Although I’d need to dig through books to find a citation.

I always think back to the 2nd Codex Ultramarines, with its full company listing - 1 Captain, 1 Chaplain, 1 Apothecary, 1 Ancient/Standard Bearer. The 1st Company had two Chaplains!

I don't think I've ever fielded a full company in a game before. It would be fun to try out though.

tneva82 wrote:
And russ companies only run battle cannons?

Why do you always make these oddly confrontational strawman posts?

Not a single person has argued that Russ companies only field regular Battle Cannon Russes - not one person - but it is something that is normal in a Russ company and the comment was that the rules currently do not allow for that. That's all the comment was.

I'd like to be able to field a traditional Armoured Company, and not just because I'm an insane person who has three. But my armoured companies are set out like this:

Vanquisher Tank Commander
Vanquisher + 2 vanilla Russes
Vanquisher + 2 vanilla Russes
Vanquisher + 2 vanilla Russes

Executioner Tank Commander
3 Exterminators
3 Demolishers
3 Demolishers

Annihilator Tank Commander
3 vanilla Russes
3 vanilla Russes
3 vanilla Russes

It'd be fun if the rules supported a formation like this.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I always think back to the 2nd Codex Ultramarines, with its full company listing - 1 Captain, 1 Chaplain, 1 Apothecary, 1 Ancient/Standard Bearer. The 1st Company had two Chaplains!

I don't think I've ever fielded a full company in a game before. It would be fun to try out though.

The problem with fielding a full marine company is that to do it right, you are looking at 3,000 point games. And at that point scale a lot of things come out to play that can just remove MEQ from the table by the double handful. Granted, you have the bodies to fill those big scoops a few times. Also, a huge portion of your army is in bolter boys. Which is fine for clearing chaff. Assuming you can get them in range of good targets.

Admittedly, the last (and only) time I put a full company on the table was not with the most recent apoc rules. Things might be better now.

I enjoyed the day, and was glad I got it to the table once. But was very underwhelmed by the play experience of putting a company down.

Guard armored companies I suspect would fair better.

 Nevelon wrote:
The problem with fielding a full marine company is that to do it right, you are looking at 3,000 point games. And at that point scale a lot of things come out to play that can just remove MEQ from the table by the double handful. Granted, you have the bodies to fill those big scoops a few times. Also, a huge portion of your army is in bolter boys. Which is fine for clearing chaff. Assuming you can get them in range of good targets.

Yeah that's fair, but there is some appeal to drowning an opponent with "Horde Marines".

 Nevelon wrote:
Guard armored companies I suspect would fair better.

Unfortunately you don't make friends with salad Armoured Companies.

And, naturally, my eyes are bigger than my stomach in this instance. I don't want to field an Armoured Company. I don't even want to field all three of my Armoured Companies, or my Artillery Company (Armoured Basilisk + 3x Basilisk + 3x Manticores + 2x Griffons + 1x Bombard)... I want to field my Super-Heavy Tank Regiment. That's a Baneblade command, then Hellhammer + 2 Baneblades, Stormblade + 2 Shadowswords, and 3 Machariuses.

But that's a LOT of points. Would be fun to try out though. See how many Marine Companies you'd need to fight it all.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
The problem with fielding a full marine company is that to do it right, you are looking at 3,000 point games. And at that point scale a lot of things come out to play that can just remove MEQ from the table by the double handful. Granted, you have the bodies to fill those big scoops a few times. Also, a huge portion of your army is in bolter boys. Which is fine for clearing chaff. Assuming you can get them in range of good targets.

Yeah that's fair, but there is some appeal to drowning an opponent with "Horde Marines".

 Nevelon wrote:
Guard armored companies I suspect would fair better.

Unfortunately you don't make friends with salad Armoured Companies.

And, naturally, my eyes are bigger than my stomach in this instance. I don't want to field an Armoured Company. I don't even want to field all three of my Armoured Companies, or my Artillery Company (Armoured Basilisk + 3x Basilisk + 3x Manticores + 2x Griffons + 1x Bombard)... I want to field my Super-Heavy Tank Regiment. That's a Baneblade command, then Hellhammer + 2 Baneblades, Stormblade + 2 Shadowswords, and 3 Machariuses.

But that's a LOT of points. Would be fun to try out though. See how many Marine Companies you'd need to fight it all.

I’m just as crazy, but a different flavor. By a strict head count, I should be over half a chapter of marines. Getting close to finished on my second formal battle company, and if I shook up the swap/spares shelf could probably muster a third. The Leviathan box puts me dangerously close to a full 1st company, and I’m about halfway through the 10th. I’ve got more HQs then sense, and might be pushing twice the captains allowed by The Codex.

I’m not sure I could take a SH regiment, but we’d go down swinging.

And I know my collection pales in comparison to some people here.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I want to field my Super-Heavy Tank Regiment. That's a Baneblade command, then Hellhammer + 2 Baneblades, Stormblade + 2 Shadowswords, and 3 Machariuses.

But that's a LOT of points. Would be fun to try out though. See how many Marine Companies you'd need to fight it all.

10 Superheavies? Well, back in the day it would have only taken one SM Company, the First. 10 Sternguard squads all with combi-meltas and Drop Pods.

But if we're just footslogging Marines at them, I don't really want to think about it, lol.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
AFAIK the Chaplain thing only even became a "thing" for the 7th ed Demi-Company Formation. Otherwise they were just supernumaries alongside the Ancients and Apothecaries. I can't recall offhand if the Librarians and Techmarines were also assigned to individual Companies org. I don't think they were.

These days I suppose the more appropriate secondary command model would be the Lt.

Librarians and Techmarines have (almost?) always been chapter level assets. They might have snuck in at the company level in one codex. If they did, I just ignored it as heresy.

Before Lts were returned to the command structure, chaplains were the closest thing companies had to a second in command. Each company had their own, and they were the lead from the front spiritual leader type. I know it was cemented in 7th with formations, but it was stuck in my head as fact since 3rd+ at the very least. Although I’d need to dig through books to find a citation.

Looking at my 3rd ed and 4th ed books, for 3rd ed techmarines were part of the command squad of the captain (or space marine hero, as they were then), and the "entire Ultramarines chapter!" in the front shows Librarians with the command squads for each company, however the "strategic disposition of the Ultramarines chapter" in the same book shows Librarians and Techmarines as a chapter level asset, as well as all apothecaries besides the singular company apothecary. 4th ed shows the same, though without precise numbers and with no accounting for excess apothecaries, with the only ones mentioned being 1 per company.

Though honestly I am glade firstborn lieutenants were reintroduced, helps me satisfy my addiction to character making in a way that doesn't involve 20 captains.

Can I pull people's attention to the Crusader squad from Black Templars?

If you take the 10 man version, you get 10 marines with boltguns, with a very similar list of upgrades to the Tactical squad. And they count as Tacticals for joining characters to them.
(Basically Tacticals can get Sergeant weapons, a special weapon and either a special or heavy weapon. Crusaders get all that, with the exception of taking 2 special weapons).

So you can effectively make a Tactical squad out of a Crusader squad.
For 30 less points.

That saves a total of 180 points on Insectum7's Firstborn list. Which is 2 Lieutenants and change, filling out the roster.
(Obviously you would take the "Gladius Task Force Detachment" rule, and cope with the different special rule on the Tacticals/Crusaders)

---

From a more fluff-focused point of view, it looks like there are lots of examples of Space Marine chapters bending the definition of a company.
Here's an example of the Ultramarine(!) 2nd company arguing that half a squad of Primaris marines counts as a full squad for a company. Which is a thing.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/6/68/Ultramarines2ndCompanyPrimaris.png/revision/latest?cb=20170813011615

That obviously makes the maths much easier to do. So lets do it, ignoring the "Crusader trick".

If we take that image, we can put that version of the 2nd company on the table for 1860 points, if we are willing to ignore the assigned reserves, command squad and dreadnoughts. We get to keep the chaplain and lieutenants.
It goes to 2025 if you want the command squad of firstborn. So we are under budget if you replace them with a generic 5 man Veteran squad.
(It's 2660 if you want literally everything in that image, including the reserves and the ironclad&standard dread).

Eh, it's not REALLY a full company deploy until they get transported in on their plastic Thunderhawk

If I remember correctly, I would field a company of marines in 4th edition. If going only by 100 marines per company and ignoring ranks and including vehicle crew ...

Chapter Master (for army-wide LD 10)
Chaplain with Jump Pack

6 Terminators w/ 2× Assault Cannons
Dreadnaught w/ Assault Cannon
10 Veterans w/o Jump Packs

10 Las/Plas Tacs
10 Las/Plas Tacs
10 Multi/Melta Tacs
10 Multi/Melta Tacs
5 Scouts
5 Sniper Scouts

Landspeeder ...Tornado? Assault Cannon
Landspeeder...same... Assault Cannon

8 Missile Devastators
8 H. Bolter Devastators
Whirlwind

I think that was my usual list. I know I also owned a full command squad, 2 rhinos, 2 Predators, a Landraider and several HQ options so maybe I'm cross-remembering my collection and actual army.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It'd be fun if the rules supported a formation like this.

Just wait for the codex. The index detachments are generic "a little of everything" forces (as they have to be when you only get one detachment per faction) and the current LRBT options work just fine in that context. But an armored company detachment that has some way of taking LRBTs as battleline units would be a pretty obvious thing for the codex.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Eh, it's not REALLY a full company deploy until they get transported in on their plastic Thunderhawk

Despite having no practical use for one, if they came out with a plastic thunderhawk I’d pick one up just as a centerpiece. Even at a reasonably unreasonable cost.