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leopard wrote:
"reduced lethality"

had a combat patrol game yesterday, Marine Aggressors are not "reduced lethality"

Let's see. Bolters had shots halved, AP reduced. How is that not reduced lethality?

In 9e you would have had more than twice the firepower.

tneva82 wrote:

leopard wrote:
"reduced lethality"

had a combat patrol game yesterday, Marine Aggressors are not "reduced lethality"

Let's see. Bolters had shots halved, AP reduced. How is that not reduced lethality?

In 9e you would have had more than twice the firepower.

when the difference is not in how many they kill but in the level of overkill there isn't much difference, when they are perfectly able to still wipe their target where as before they wiped their target with dice to spare, from the perspective of the spattered remains on the floor the change is marginal

There was reduced damage done to some unit, and two armies. The rest is either changed damage or the damaged actualy went up. I think no one who played a game vs knights or eldar, for the first time in 10th, can say there is less leathality in the game. Or saw what GSC pipe bombs do to even toughest stuff.

One thing I strongly dislike (probably my main issue actually) with 10th now when I've started settling in, is Devastating Wounds, especially in conjunction with Anti-X.

There's just too many weaponprofiles with Devastating Wounds in 10th. Combine it with how keywords work and/or Anti-X and it becomes too much.

For the good of the game, Devastating Wounds needs a rework.

One possible solution would be to have them work like the old rending-system from earlier editions, i.e. a critical wound ignores armour saves (or improves AP by X.)
Edit: And make Anti-X count as a wound and not a critical-wound while you're at it, did GW learn nothing from pre-nerf LoV in 9th?

I played 2000 points Imperial Fists vs Blood Ravens.
More relaxed lists I guess.

Mine (all Primaris):
Tor Garadon
Captain in Gravis
Biologis
Apothecary
Lieutenant
Techmarine

4x 5 Heavy Intercessors with Heavy Bolter
2x 5 Intercessors with Grenade launcher and PFist

5 Aggressors
3 Eliminators
3 Eradicators
3 Eradicators
5 Hellblasters
Leviathan with Melta, Volkite and Storm
ATV with multimelta

His army (from memory):
Gabriel (Captain in Terminator)
Librarian
Techmarine (warlord)
Blade Guard Ancient

3 Blade Guard
10 Sternguard
10 Assault Marines
Dreadnaught
Redemptor plasma
Redemptor onslaught
Storm Talon
Storm Talon
Storm Raven

I went first. Started a long my deployment edge.
He took the bait and tried to close the gap asap.
My opening turn didn't do much.
His first turn he moved up with the hovering Storm Raven and deployed a Dread, the Sternguard, and the librarian next to his onslaught Redemptor directly in front of my aggressors, an Intercessor squad, Eradicators and Biologis.
He pushed up the other side of the board with the blade guard, plasma Redemptor and one storm talon.
He was able to destroy all my Eradicators in his first turn and put a wound on Tor Garadon.

My next turn I moved forward with Devastator Doctrine to completely blend the lines our forces, now covering the entire map with overlapping fields of heavy boltrifle fire.
My Leviathan removed his regular Dread in one blast with his cyclonic Melta lance and put some damage on the Storm Talon. Tor and the ATV charged the plasma Redemptor. Tor did some hurt and then got stomped to paste.
My remaining aggressors and captain charged his Sternguard and their neighboring onslaught Redemptor. The put some big hurt on the Sternguard with the Redemptor removing another 2 aggressors.

His 2nd turn the 10 man assault squad deep strikes into my deployment zone onto my rear objective (tagged by my Intercessors turn one).
His blade guard engage in combat with my other intercessor squad trying to take a center objective.
As he had chosen to active his Tactical Doctrine he fell back out of many combats to fire and charge.
His plasma Redemptor targeted the ATV he moved away from, only for the ATV to fire back with his ability after surviving the Redemptor attacks.
BOOM! ATV earns his place among the 1st company lol.
The Aggressors and Captain killed off the Sternguard/librarian after surviving their charge.

My 3rd turn the Leviathan destroyed the Storm Talon and Raven (and we both only now realized he hadn't deployed the second Talon yet). The Hellblasters/lieutenant/apothecary unit turned around and overcharged the assault squad off the table.
The Captain destroyed the onslaught Redemptor and the blade guard were chopped down by massed bolter fire as the Intercessors fell back on the mid objective.

The game was called. Imperial Fists victory 22-12.
We played the basic mission with the 4 objective markers and our own secondaries of 5vp for killing the warlord and 1VP for each unit destroyed.

Overall feelings...
Was fun. Very few issues with rules or confusion. It took 6 hours but we didn't have quick references (scrolling through apps is kinda slow I guess) and we took a few short breaks just to walk away from the table a bit. We also were chatting quite about about Warhammer in general that distracted us regularly lol.

My opinions on his army...
Too many flyers (one was not even used), Redemptors are badass, some characters can be completely useless.

His options on my army...
An army of toughness 6, 3 wound models in 3+ saves is not to be dismissed. ATVs are apparently kinda cool. Hellblasters are infantry better than Eradicators.

 MinscS2 wrote:
...did GW learn nothing from pre-nerf LoV in 9th?

Literally no. The rules for Devastating wounds had already been sent to the printers by the time LoV were released.

 MinscS2 wrote:
...did GW learn nothing from pre-nerf LoV in 9th?

If you spend enough time around GW you'll notice that they never learn anything from anything.

They have learned rather well that players are always looking to buy op stuff so by deliberately making game imbalanced which changes they rake in huge money.

It's deliberate since players buy the latest OP unit all the time like lemmings.

As long as that continues and rules and models come from same source it continues.

If they were learning anything from that, they'd learn that that type of player is in the minority and certainly shouldn't be something you base all the changes in your game around.

leopard wrote:
"reduced lethality"

had a combat patrol game yesterday, Marine Aggressors are not "reduced lethality"

Given they fire half as many shots as they used to...

Got in my first 10th Edition game, 1K of Sisters of Battle versus Space Marines. My Sisters pulled out the win due to superior positioning. A lucky round of 5 Repentia surviving shooting of 2 5-model Intercessor Squads didn't hurt either (even if they then failed a rerolled 6" charge!).

I have to say the game reminds me of a more refined version of the 8th Edition Index era. The rules were just so much simpler than the massive layers of rules we got in 9th Edition.

 MinscS2 wrote:

Edit: And make Anti-X count as a wound and not a critical-wound while you're at it, did GW learn nothing from pre-nerf LoV in 9th?

The 10th rules were long done and sent to the printers when LoV came out.

If GW learned anything there, it will come into effect in 11th edition. And that is a big "if".

One of the first things I thought after reason the 10th Ed rules was that 11th should be great...

And it won't be long now. Less than 3 years away.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
If they were learning anything from that, they'd learn that that type of player is in the minority and certainly shouldn't be something you base all the changes in your game around.

leopard wrote:
"reduced lethality"

had a combat patrol game yesterday, Marine Aggressors are not "reduced lethality"

Given they fire half as many shots as they used to...

Not necessarily - usually more than half. The Boltstorms are the most "popular" and now get about 2/3s and those shots One Twin Linked Boltstorm + D6 Harness shots vs 3+3+D6) are more lethal than they were with the stacking/parallel buffing now available to them.

In 9th 10ish shots for 5 - 50 shots, reroll hits and 1s to wound (CM + LT - or Guilliman - Auras) - 33 hits + 11 out of 17 RR Hits = 44 hits, top out at -1 AP for Tactical Doctrine S4 vs T4 22 wounds plus 3.5 for 25 woundings saving on a 4+ for 12-13 damage.

In 10th with a Bolter Discipline Biologis + Dev Doc + Storm of Wrath - 6 x 6.5 attacks 39 attacks, me-you-Sustained+Lethal-6-of-one-half-dozen-of-the-other = 26 hits counting 13 Crit Hits that wound and add another hit meaning 39 Hits, and 13 already-woundings. 39 hits wound T3 19.5 times, and save at -2 - 19 woundings plus the 13 already woundings from the crit hits is 32 -2 woundings (-1 for closest Target, -1 for Storm of Fire in Dev Doctrine + Ignores Cover) = about 22 damage.

With that said, they're generally the exception proving the rule. They need to gimmick and buff stack to do that - without the -2 AP from the stacking they almost certainly do less than before - and thats where most of the reduced lethality is coming from - Much harder to acquire (better than) -2AP plus a large number of elite infantry getting toughness boosts while most weapons did not get a Strength boost. Those Aggressors are only wounded by super Power Swords on a 4+, even Master Crafted ones are only on a 5+ - 3+ to a 4+ on Terminators with a 4++ instead of being reduced to their 5+/5++ armor save of last edition. Most Melta lost range, The Krak missile gained a point of S but using them against Marine bodies was sort of a wink-and-nod "off-label" prescription.

Terminators as mentioned went to a blanket 4++, while Roboute went from his 3++ to a 4++ Individual units may have gotten more/less lethal and/or more/less durable but overall the "elite" units became more durable and through some relativity to that most units became less lethal.

Breton wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
If they were learning anything from that, they'd learn that that type of player is in the minority and certainly shouldn't be something you base all the changes in your game around.

leopard wrote:
"reduced lethality"

had a combat patrol game yesterday, Marine Aggressors are not "reduced lethality"

Given they fire half as many shots as they used to...

Not necessarily - usually more than half. The Boltstorms are the most "popular" and now get about 2/3s and those shots One Twin Linked Boltstorm + D6 Harness shots vs 3+3+D6) are more lethal than they were with the stacking/parallel buffing now available to them.

In 9th 10ish shots for 5 - 50 shots, reroll hits and 1s to wound (CM + LT - or Guilliman - Auras) - 33 hits + 11 out of 17 RR Hits = 44 hits, top out at -1 AP for Tactical Doctrine S4 vs T4 22 wounds plus 3.5 for 25 woundings saving on a 4+ for 12-13 damage.

In 10th with a Bolter Discipline Biologis + Dev Doc + Storm of Wrath - 6 x 6.5 attacks 39 attacks, me-you-Sustained+Lethal-6-of-one-half-dozen-of-the-other = 26 hits counting 13 Crit Hits that wound and add another hit meaning 39 Hits, and 13 already-woundings. 39 hits wound T3 19.5 times, and save at -2 - 19 woundings plus the 13 already woundings from the crit hits is 32 -2 woundings (-1 for closest Target, -1 for Storm of Fire in Dev Doctrine + Ignores Cover) = about 22 damage.

With that said, they're generally the exception proving the rule. They need to gimmick and buff stack to do that - without the -2 AP from the stacking they almost certainly do less than before - and thats where most of the reduced lethality is coming from - Much harder to acquire (better than) -2AP plus a large number of elite infantry getting toughness boosts while most weapons did not get a Strength boost. Those Aggressors are only wounded by super Power Swords on a 4+, even Master Crafted ones are only on a 5+ - 3+ to a 4+ on Terminators with a 4++ instead of being reduced to their 5+/5++ armor save of last edition. Most Melta lost range, The Krak missile gained a point of S but using them against Marine bodies was sort of a wink-and-nod "off-label" prescription.

Terminators as mentioned went to a blanket 4++, while Roboute went from his 3++ to a 4++ Individual units may have gotten more/less lethal and/or more/less durable but overall the "elite" units became more durable and through some relativity to that most units became less lethal.

Whilst I see your point that is a 300 pt unit with 1CP and a once per game ability being used to kill 130 pts of guardsmen.

You don't become resilient with a 4++, when DevWounds are common spammed and GSC pipe bombs kill knights in a turn. And that is coming from a person playing an army of 100% dudes being +4inv. NDKs are a non entity, because they just die too easy.

Dudeface wrote:

Whilst I see your point that is a 300 pt unit with 1CP and a once per game ability being used to kill 130 pts of guardsmen.

Dev Doctrine is only "free" once per game, but you can use it on the Aggressors all game long if you want, I've built a list to do that over and over- but yeah I was going for the point not the gimmick.

Dev wounds/mortals are a staple of Aeldari, GSC and CSM lists.

Marines can lean into them hard too.

 Bosskelot wrote:
Dev wounds/mortals are a staple of Aeldari, GSC and CSM lists.

Marines can lean into them hard too.

Not especially well - vs Infantry at least. The combination of Anti-X + Devastating Wounds to spam Mortals is pretty rare - they even nerfed it on Deathwatch off the bat.

Breton wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Whilst I see your point that is a 300 pt unit with 1CP and a once per game ability being used to kill 130 pts of guardsmen.

Dev Doctrine is only "free" once per game, but you can use it on the Aggressors all game long if you want, I've built a list to do that over and over- but yeah I was going for the point not the gimmick.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
You don't become resilient with a 4++, when DevWounds are common spammed and GSC pipe bombs kill knights in a turn. And that is coming from a person playing an army of 100% dudes being +4inv. NDKs are a non entity, because they just die too easy.

Who is common spamming Dev Wounds, and how?

ccs wrote:

Last summer I picked up a SM army dirt cheap from a guy at the one shop on his way out of the game. He'd built it focused on using Gatling Cannons - max ATVs, Redemptor dreads, Gladiators, whatever the other primaris tank that can have a gatling. If it could have a gatling of any size, that's what he built.... Because he thought that looked cool.
Of course he had no way to know that a year later all those guns would be flinging devastating wounds, overwatch would be improved, or that the ATVs would be able to provide cover fire for SM "mounted" units..... Not to mention Oath of the Moment.
I picked this force up for a crazy good price - as in, too good to pass up even if I only ever played it once or twice. And then I got lucky when the rules shifted with 10e.
To this I've since added an outrider squad with a mounted Chaplain.
I've put mixes of this stuff on the table a few times in the past month & chewed the hell out of most everything I've faced. And it works quite well at lower pt games.

Again I'm not sure spamming 1/6 of 2/3 of 1/5 of your army is spamming Dev Wounds. At one-in-six they're still frosting on cake, not roast beef on taters and gravy. Invader ATV is probably the cheapest Points per "rotary cannon" shot you'll get at about 10 points per attempt to DW. Even if you COULD spam all 2,000 points that's 200 attempts hitting 134 times, generating 21 natural 6 DW's. Meanwhile the 3+ 4+, and 5+ wounds deal 89 wounds, for 29 damage after saves. You're chewing things up on volume of fire not DW. And like I said, even if you did try and max the assorted miniguns you're not getting 200 attempts a turn. In theory you can pack 6 Invaders (But three will cost way more per attempt for the Outriders they have to attach to) - 3 Tornadoes that jump to 11+ points per attempt, Redemptors at 11.25 per attempt up to Reapers at about 13 points per. Don't get me wrong 10 D1 DW wounds per turn isn't anything to scoff at - but spread out over your whole army its more like a disease/poison bleed effect than a haymaker punch.

ccs wrote:

To this I've since added an outrider squad with a mounted Chaplain.
I've put mixes of this stuff on the table a few times in the past month & chewed the hell out of most everything I've faced. And it works quite well at lower pt games.

How well it works at 2k? Low point game balance always been junk in gw games. Gw makes non-scaling rules.

Who is common spamming Dev Wounds, and how?

Eldar. They have them where they want, when they want and there is 0 interactive ways you can go around it, in fact they are fewer then zero ways, because Incarne and phantasm exists, but that is a separate thing.

Dudeface wrote:
Whilst I see your point that is a 300 pt unit with 1CP and a once per game ability being used to kill 130 pts of guardsmen.

Exactly.

"But if you use a strat on them they're powerful!"

They're weaker than they were. They fire half as many shots as they did before. This is an immutable fact.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Whilst I see your point that is a 300 pt unit with 1CP and a once per game ability being used to kill 130 pts of guardsmen.

Exactly.

"But if you use a strat on them they're powerful!"

They're weaker than they were. They fire half as many shots as they did before. This is an immutable fact.

Again, they (the more popular/prevalent version) don't fire half the shots. They went from 3+3+D6 to 3+D6. They lost about a third of the shots.

Have played five games against various different opponents and so far we’ve all been having fun with the new edition.

The game feels quicker and less weighed down by dozens of strats and gotchas.

Last and only experience with 10th, 1 game of combat patrol death guard vs SM….got tabled turn 3.
5x Deepstriking terminators with librarian giving sustaining hits on autocannon, 5x stormbolters and 3x 3+ powerfists with oath of the moment. But theres more. 5 man squad of flamers and new overwatch triggers if you sneeze. Immortal CC captain in term armour with reroll fails of everything. Killed 2 flamer
marines whole game. Yea 10th edition is the Fox News of wargaming.

 Ineedvc2500 wrote:
Last and only experience with 10th, 1 game of combat patrol death guard vs SM….got tabled turn 3.
5x Deepstriking terminators with librarian giving sustaining hits on autocannon, 5x stormbolters and 3x 3+ powerfists with oath of the moment. But theres more. 5 man squad of flamers and new overwatch triggers if you sneeze. Immortal CC captain in term armour with reroll fails of everything. Killed 2 flamer
marines whole game. Yea 10th edition is the Fox News of wargaming.

Oh yeah, i went to see the DG combat patrol and its giga bad lol.
Still, i wouldn't dismiss the whole edition after one game, and DG is getting buffs soon-ish most probably so that should help them.

I've played a couple 1000 pts games - some with my brother, and a SM mirror match against Salamanders. I won the latter, mostly because my opponent wasn't expecting me to bring a Redemptor and Repulsor.

Oath of Moment is kind of busted.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
I've played a couple 1000 pts games - some with my brother, and a SM mirror match against Salamanders. I won the latter, mostly because my opponent wasn't expecting me to bring a Redemptor and Repulsor.

Oath of Moment is kind of busted.

You are playing 1k game. GW games have never ever scaled well and oath is blindingly obviously more powerful the smaller the game.

Hell even GW saw that and changed the rule for combat patrol.

It's lot more powerful at 1k than 2k.

Oath of Moment needs to be either removed, or it and Doctrines swapped around so that every Marine army isn't Oath of Moment'ing everyone off the table each turn.

 Ineedvc2500 wrote:
Last and only experience with 10th, 1 game of combat patrol death guard vs SM

Firstly, you played Combat Patrol, which is to 40k what Warcry is to Warhammer. It's not really 10th. Secondly, you played Death Guard, arguably the worst army in 10th.

I don't think that's a good metric from which to base your conclusions.