How do you stop hating the lore?

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**ThePaintingOwl**

SgtBANZAI wrote:
Define "a few". There were multiple Cadian regiments throughout the galaxy at the time of its destruction. We also know it is possible for the regiments to claim the planets they've liberated as special reward for their services; if said planet was previously uninhabited, majority of its population will be Cadian descendents. After Cadia's destruction, some of its original population founded another colony:

So, exactly like the Ultramarines being destroyed but their successor chapters carrying on the traditions of their parent chapter.

**JNAProductions**

ThePaintingOwl wrote:
SgtBANZAI wrote:
Define "a few". There were multiple Cadian regiments throughout the galaxy at the time of its destruction. We also know it is possible for the regiments to claim the planets they've liberated as special reward for their services; if said planet was previously uninhabited, majority of its population will be Cadian descendents. After Cadia's destruction, some of its original population founded another colony:

So, exactly like the Ultramarines being destroyed but their successor chapters carrying on the traditions of their parent chapter.

Since Ultras act more like a Legion than a Chapter, do you mean 1,000 Marines (including Calgar, Chronos, various other UM named characters) being killed?
Because your post made it seem more like "The entire Ultramar sector goes kaput, with Ultramarines and most all their successors gone too."

**ThePaintingOwl**

JNAProductions wrote:
Since Ultras act more like a Legion than a Chapter, do you mean 1,000 Marines (including Calgar, Chronos, various other UM named characters) being killed?
Because your post made it seem more like "The entire Ultramar sector goes kaput, with Ultramarines and most all their successors gone too."

I mean the Ultramarines specifically, with the rest of the sector suffering losses like the Fall of Cadia. But I don't particularly care which chapters die or for which reason, feel free to have the Iron Hands wiped out by the GSC uprising with only successor chapters remaining. It's not about killing off the Ultramarines specifically (though they need to lose their near-monopoly on being the face of the IP), it's about ending the absurd and boring as hell situation where any time a "real" chapter appears in a story they're almost guaranteed to win and only non-marine factions will ever suffer meaningful losses.

Though now that you mention it, the Imperium deciding to stop tolerating the Ultramarines acting like a 30k-era legion in defiance of Imperial law would make an excellent plot point, far better than the GSC uprising. An Imperial fleet descends upon the realms of Ultramar, the Ultramarines are declared to be traitors, and the chapter homeworld is destroyed by guard and navy forces with virtually all of the chapter (and some expendable minor successors) dying in the final stand. Forces from the successor chapters and secondary worlds arrive to drive off the initial fleet and force a stalemate, perhaps with some of the successors begging the Imperium for mercy and accepting penance crusades to clear the shame of their treason.

**RaptorusRex**

ThePaintingOwl wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
Since Ultras act more like a Legion than a Chapter, do you mean 1,000 Marines (including Calgar, Chronos, various other UM named characters) being killed?
Because your post made it seem more like "The entire Ultramar sector goes kaput, with Ultramarines and most all their successors gone too."

I mean the Ultramarines specifically, with the rest of the sector suffering losses like the Fall of Cadia. But I don't particularly care which chapters die or for which reason, feel free to have the Iron Hands wiped out by the GSC uprising with only successor chapters remaining. It's not about killing off the Ultramarines specifically (though they need to lose their near-monopoly on being the face of the IP), it's about ending the absurd and boring as hell situation where any time a "real" chapter appears in a story they're almost guaranteed to win and only non-marine factions will ever suffer meaningful losses.

Though now that you mention it, the Imperium deciding to stop tolerating the Ultramarines acting like a 30k-era legion in defiance of Imperial law would make an excellent plot point, far better than the GSC uprising. An Imperial fleet descends upon the realms of Ultramar, the Ultramarines are declared to be traitors, and the chapter homeworld is destroyed by guard and navy forces with virtually all of the chapter (and some expendable minor successors) dying in the final stand. Forces from the successor chapters and secondary worlds arrive to drive off the initial fleet and force a stalemate, perhaps with some of the successors begging the Imperium for mercy and accepting penance crusades to clear the shame of their treason.

I'm no fan of the Ultras, but your hate-boner is something else. Two points:

A.) The Ultras and Primogenitor Chapters have no unitary command structure, unlike the Dark Angels.

B.) Comparing successor chapters to Cadian regiments is hilariously ignorant.

**ThePaintingOwl**

RaptorusRex wrote:
B.) Comparing successor chapters to Cadian regiments is hilariously ignorant.

No, it's accurate. It's only because of marine favoritism that a successor chapter is treated as more valid or unique than a successor regiment.

**evil_kiwi_60**

Dang the amount of ultramarines hate made me check what year it was. Matt Ward is gone you don’t have to hate a faction to be one of the cool kids anymore. The massive amount of hatred for the literal poster emblem for the game aside, GW has destroyed a first founding chapter. The fists explicitly all died. The Blood Angels got close. Even if it were to to occur, the Imperium would simply force successors to donate marines to revive the destroyed first founding chapter. A totalitarian empire like the Imperium would never accept the loss of prestige from a founding element getting destroyed like that. The destruction would accomplish nothing beyond dating your own grudges. Especially for a chapter that probably is one of the most well documented. I always do find it amusing when people suggest a faction or group gets removed. Funnily enough it’s never one they use.

**Maréchal des Logis Walter**

Even more than space marines getting a few more slaps to even the stories, we need xenos on xenos action.

I just love Valedor, or the octarian war (with nids)... Real shame we get so few big fat stories like those.

**tneva82**

Overread wrote:
Tyranids DID eat their way to the Ultramarine homeworld and tore a huge chunk of them up. Granted the marines survived, but they paid a heavy price for it!

And had marines died imperium would have recreated it. Or you think imperium would choose not to?

And that was before primarch came out. Now even if marines die and somehow all collected tithe is destroyea they still can bring ultramarines back...

But hey fine. Ultramarines removed provided gw removes all factions sergeant bob plays

fair is fair after all. So if bob wants others lose faction better be willing to be left without own faction.

Plus side nobody would have to play vs bob as he doesn't have legal army anymore.

**ccs**

tneva82 wrote:
Overread wrote:
Tyranids DID eat their way to the Ultramarine homeworld and tore a huge chunk of them up. Granted the marines survived, but they paid a heavy price for it!

And had marines died imperium would have recreated it. Or you think imperium would choose not to?

And that was before primarch came out. Now even if marines die and somehow all collected tithe is destroyea they still can bring ultramarines back...

But hey fine. Ultramarines removed provided gw removes all factions sergeant bob plays fair is fair after all. So if bob wants others lose faction better be willing to be left without own faction.

Plus side nobody would have to play vs bob as he doesn't have legal army anymore.

This assumes Bob actually plays to begin with....

**Tyel**

Obligatory observation that Marine Chapters being 1000 strong makes them a complete joke/non-entity in 40k given the relative scale of everything else.

"Eldar are a dying race."
"The Ultramarines/Blood Angels/literally everyone would functionally cease to exist in a seriously contested skirmish, never mind a proper war".

Even the 30k legions were far too small.

**Memnoch**

I just tend to ignore a lot of the lore these days. For example Primaris origins are daft so I ignore.

All these Primarchs coming back and battling 1vs1 without anyone actually dying is one of my pet hates though and that trend seemed to start in the Horus Heresy novels where they started padding the series out about 1/3rd in to it.

**RaptorusRex**

ThePaintingOwl wrote:
RaptorusRex wrote:
B.) Comparing successor chapters to Cadian regiments is hilariously ignorant.

No, it's accurate. It's only because of marine favoritism that a successor chapter is treated as more valid or unique than a successor regiment.

Not really. A successor chapter such as the Mortifactors, Doom Eagles, or Emperor's Spears would seem very alien culture-wise to an Ultramarine from Macragge.

This guy is a son of Guilliman, but he is decidely not an Ultramarine. He comes from a feral planet where the inhabitants regard his kind as the ghosts of abducted children. He refers to his Battle-brothers by their tribal exonyms. He likely has engaged in blood rites of some form or another.

Cadian regiments, on the other hand, are Cadian regiments. Their children might not all be exiled to the isolated islands of the Caducaces sea because of that body of water no longer existing. But they live a highly militarized lifestyle, where one is able to shoot from the time they hold a gun.

**Souleater**

I just make up my own head canon for the bits I don’t like.

For example, Vect annoys the heck out of me, not least for having somehow survived so long in Commorragh. So in my head it’s a Dread Pirate Roberts kind of deal.

**Sgt. Cortez**

I mean, the DID wipe out the whole

Spoiler:

quite recently. Recently in real time, not in the fluff though. But it happens that Marines bite the dust. As someone who is not familiar with Blood Angels lore that much I get the impression they've been brought to near extinction repeatedly during those tyranid attacks. Fenris also looks pretty bad since Magnus attacked.
In the grand scheme of things Marines aren't doing that great. However, that picture gets a little blurry when they still appear everywhere and in every conflict in the galaxy. Especially the First Founding chapters appear in almost every campaign book, which makes you sometimes wonder: Hey, Ultramarine, don’t you have to defend against Mortarion attacking Ultramar, right now? What are you doing here?

**Andykp**

Best thing to do with the lore you don’t like is ignore the bits you don’t like. You can do this in universe easily enough too, set your fluff in a region of the galaxy that isn’t in the know, it’s a big enough place and ignorance is a policy enforced violently. Easy to have your game set current day but have no idea about primarchs or primaris if you don’t like them.

For me it’s the heresy gargbage since they made those novels. Could’ve ruined a lot. But I just don’t read them. Easy.

**Cyel**

I agree. It's like deciding not to watch Terminator:Genysis or whatever it was called.

**BuFFo**

Abanshee wrote:
Does the lore really even matter? With the recent dip in lore quality and the more recent lore additions, I'm honestly left asking what's the point anymore? It's like the deeper I dive into the novels, games, pre-history of 40k, and sourcebooks that my appreciation for the setting drops. I know that this is primarily a setting designed around selling miniatures and at the end of the day, that's GW's top priority. However, that just led me to question as to why so many people are even invested in such an expensive hobby or more so what's the point?

If not the lore, is it just pure aesthetics? Are the models really the only reason anyone is here? Buyer's stockholm syndrome, lol? The so called "wonderful community"? The awful rules? I was never here for any of that.

I've got a good understanding of most of the factions, I've read close to 25 Black Library books, read every one of the FW Imperial Armour, read all of the Horus Heresy Black Books, and have caught myself up on most of the new lore like the Indomitus Crusade. The only thing I like anymore are the Leagues of Votann and Orks. That's simply because they have little to no lore on them and GW hasn't had the chance to feth them up. Everything, I used to enjoy has been changed to a point where I either no longer like it or I actively hate it. Like, I used to sympathize with the Night Lords and actually thought their terroristic actions were completely justified. Now, I think they're a bunch of whiny man-children, who just like being edgy for the sake of being edgy.

Tyranids? Blatant xenomorph rip-offs that lose 24/7. Tau? Slowly turning into the Imperium 2.0. Space Marines? Plot armor thicker than steel and portrayed as whiny teens rather than professional inhuman soldiers. Chaos? Bigger joke than the Empire from Star Wars. Necrons? Please don't remind me of the worst faction/lore update in the game's history. Eldar? Ynnead, really living up to that "god of the dead" title cuz he's just as dead in the lore, also Ynnari.

I dunno it's a mid-life wargaming crisis or what? It just sucks I can't enjoy the lore anymore the way I used to without finding something blatantly wrong about it and writing it off as gak. How did you stop hating the lore, if you ever have? Or is it time to look for greener pastures?

I have disliked the lore for decades.

Playing fascists of various flavors as your army/heroes doesn't work unless the company and it's setting is blatant satire. 40k used to be satire, but since going grim dark in the late 90's, the "awesome" space marines people love to read about are just unironic stand ins for Socialism as heroes ( fascism and communism ). Socialism is trash in real life, and should be in a fantasy setting.

Which is why I only play White Scars or Tyranids. White Scars is as anti-authoritarian as you can get if you decide to play as space marines ( but white scars are still philosophically dead fascists ) which is why I enjoy playing the only race in the game that is just a perceptual animal - Tyranids. No morality issues there. Tyranids are just stupid animals guided by some magical animal consciousness to survive.

I enjoy stories like Judge Dredd, where the takes on Socialism are satire and the "heroes" aren't sold to you as heroic in anyway.

I also enjoy compartmentalized stories of "regular" people trying to survive in the 40k setting, which typically amounts to enjoying stories that only spotlight regular imperial guardsmen and their day to day adventures. Anything above a grunt who doesn't understand the politics he is forced to live under isn't enjoyable to me in the slightest.

**Cyel**

Tbh it's much more nationalism (specieism

) and authoritarian than socialism (which is far from trash, unless you don't actually understand what it means and think in categories like "LGBT wants to send people to gulags by suggesting paternity leaves"

)

And if you have authoritarian govs, it hardly matters if they claim to be left or right, they work the same way - install oppressive tools to protect the ruling class from the increasingly dissatisfied people. That's your wh40k.

**Maréchal des Logis Walter**

BuFFo wrote:
Abanshee wrote:
Does the lore really even matter? With the recent dip in lore quality and the more recent lore additions, I'm honestly left asking what's the point anymore? It's like the deeper I dive into the novels, games, pre-history of 40k, and sourcebooks that my appreciation for the setting drops. I know that this is primarily a setting designed around selling miniatures and at the end of the day, that's GW's top priority. However, that just led me to question as to why so many people are even invested in such an expensive hobby or more so what's the point?

If not the lore, is it just pure aesthetics? Are the models really the only reason anyone is here? Buyer's stockholm syndrome, lol? The so called "wonderful community"? The awful rules? I was never here for any of that.

I've got a good understanding of most of the factions, I've read close to 25 Black Library books, read every one of the FW Imperial Armour, read all of the Horus Heresy Black Books, and have caught myself up on most of the new lore like the Indomitus Crusade. The only thing I like anymore are the Leagues of Votann and Orks. That's simply because they have little to no lore on them and GW hasn't had the chance to feth them up. Everything, I used to enjoy has been changed to a point where I either no longer like it or I actively hate it. Like, I used to sympathize with the Night Lords and actually thought their terroristic actions were completely justified. Now, I think they're a bunch of whiny man-children, who just like being edgy for the sake of being edgy.

Tyranids? Blatant xenomorph rip-offs that lose 24/7. Tau? Slowly turning into the Imperium 2.0. Space Marines? Plot armor thicker than steel and portrayed as whiny teens rather than professional inhuman soldiers. Chaos? Bigger joke than the Empire from Star Wars. Necrons? Please don't remind me of the worst faction/lore update in the game's history. Eldar? Ynnead, really living up to that "god of the dead" title cuz he's just as dead in the lore, also Ynnari.

I dunno it's a mid-life wargaming crisis or what? It just sucks I can't enjoy the lore anymore the way I used to without finding something blatantly wrong about it and writing it off as gak. How did you stop hating the lore, if you ever have? Or is it time to look for greener pastures?

I have disliked the lore for decades.

Playing fascists of various flavors as your army/heroes doesn't work unless the company and it's setting is blatant satire. 40k used to be satire, but since going grim dark in the late 90's, the "awesome" space marines people love to read about are just unironic stand ins for Socialism as heroes ( fascism and communism ). Socialism is trash in real life, and should be in a fantasy setting.

Which is why I only play White Scars or Tyranids. White Scars is as anti-authoritarian as you can get if you decide to play as space marines ( but white scars are still philosophically dead fascists ) which is why I enjoy playing the only race in the game that is just a perceptual animal - Tyranids. No morality issues there. Tyranids are just stupid animals guided by some magical animal consciousness to survive.

I enjoy stories like Judge Dredd, where the takes on Socialism are satire and the "heroes" aren't sold to you as heroic in anyway.

I also enjoy compartmentalized stories of "regular" people trying to survive in the 40k setting, which typically amounts to enjoying stories that only spotlight regular imperial guardsmen and their day to day adventures. Anything above a grunt who doesn't understand the politics he is forced to live under isn't enjoyable to me in the slightest.

Not sure of your regime classification but I get the point.

I, for one, don't care if it carries any sort of political satire or message. Better it didn't. Way better educated authors, philosophers, theologists, writers are working on it. Plastic toy soldiers and dice rolling in the basement is not the place for it.

I'd rather keep my enjoyment of a blatantly over the top unibers seperate from those other serious matters. I'd go so far as to say, the less politics in it the better.

What's more, in my eyes the satire in itself is absolutely still valid. Yes, it is a fact that the universe has got a more polished cover, at first sight, it could totally look like nothing more than space knights battling any silly cool and creepy alien. But when you delve a bit more into it, obviously, you must acknowledge their is more than catches the eye, at least it has been for a long time until girlyman returned. People more better versed may confirm or not.

The Imperium is still a total nightmare. The fact the tyranical, corrupted, brain-dead Imperium is the only way for mankind to try and weather the storm is just the perfect emphasize of how gakky, nonsensical and hopeless this setting is, because in any other brighter setting. Such horrible regime would probably have been cast down long ago. But 40k is absurd, over the top, and silly in the extreme.

As far as I know, it is still valid that space marines are brainwashed into the fearless warriors they are. If anything, you could say the heroics of space marines are actually if not sometimes faked, at least ironic.

I guess we could carry on longer on this topic, but long story short, if you are willing to look at it this way, the universe has two layers of understanding, one of which still delivers the satire. I don't believe it to be truly political in are days and age though, and mostly there to delight in the absurdness of it all.

This is, of course, a personnal opinion. You may disagree.

**Andykp**

A lot of the satire is lost because the world it was a satire of no longer exists. It was very much a satire of 19070/80s Britain, not something relevant to todays audience and certainly not something understood. While socialism may not be everyone’s politics, the people behind early GW were certainly socialists. No secret there.

The building blocks of the satire ares till there, the ironic state of the imperium as state that is destroying its self through its ignorance and self purging is still there. The maintenance of the status quo at all costs is still key to its existence and its biggest threat.

So I agree that there is the polished corporate façade but dig even a little bit and the dystopia is still there.

I dislike the application of real life political themes to the setting because it takes away from the satire and intention, it’s all to easy to say marines are nazis, but it’s kind of missing the point.

And nowadays with extreme groups jumping on existing things it opens the games up to hijacking by these groups for their cause. All because of a misinterpretation by a few people. It’s better to have nuance and ambiguity in the setting and protagonists.

**Souleater**

There’s no satire in The Lion: Son of the Forest, though.

The good guy marines are genuinely ready to lay down their lives and souls for ‘mortals’ while the Evil Marines are a bunch of back-stabbing fools.

**Cyel**

There's a lot of dissonance between books like Sons od Medusa and, say, Uriel Ventris novels. Definitely some authors kind of miss or omit the satire/negativity of the Imperium's background.

**Brickfix**

Even if most of the books about space marines show them as noble knights protecting the weak citizens, the life of the ordinary human in M41 is still absolutely awful. It shows that the hero can be an noble and courageous as possible, it still doesn't change anything for the average human because the system is oppressive. And nothing can change it.

It may not be directly written in any novel, but it's still there. 40k for me is a (exaggerated) warning where humanity can go wrong, and I believe it conveys that message pretty well. All while allowing some power fantasy about generic super soldiers, immortal robots and technology mixed with magic. And it's still a sales vehicle in the end, so some stuff has to be taken with some (or a lot of) salt.

**Unit1126PLL**

I mean, you can say that and then you can turn around and have citizens in like Ultramar living lives not so different from us on Earth...

**Cyel**

And I think novels where potagonists are unrelatable, sociopathic, fanatical killers would be enjoyed by fewer readers.

**Andykp**

Most books are still aimed at the wide end of the hobby trumpet, it’s GWs way and always will be.

But I have read a few marine books where there are still flashes of marine dickness. Like rynns world, and hellsreach. There are times where the marines are real arrogant knobs.

**Overread**

And yet people love watching cannibalistic morgue workers regularly murdering people.

**Maréchal des Logis Walter**

Andykp wrote:
Most books are still aimed at the wide end of the hobby trumpet, it’s GWs way and always will be.

But I have read a few marine books where there are still flashes of marine dickness. Like rynns world, and hellsreach. There are times where the marines are real arrogant knobs.

We could say in essence that the "satire" is still there obviously, but it is not advertised, couldn't we? Sums it up fairly I think.

**Deadnight**

Like the best things, its not in your face. It's there, waiting and ready to be discovered with a little digging.

**Brickfix**

Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Andykp wrote:
Most books are still aimed at the wide end of the hobby trumpet, it’s GWs way and always will be.

But I have read a few marine books where there are still flashes of marine dickness. Like rynns world, and hellsreach. There are times where the marines are real arrogant knobs.

We could say in essence that the "satire" is still there obviously, but it is not advertised, couldn't we? Sums it up fairly I think.

Deadnight wrote:Like the best things, its not in your face. It's there, waiting and ready to be discovered with a little digging.

I agree with both posts above. The more blatant power fantasy is "in your face", but there are a lot of hidden gems that really do it for me.
But if learned not to mind inconsistencies. As an engineer I couldn't watch most action movies with sci-fi elements if I cared to much ^^