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Tomb-blades as top-of-the-line aero-space fighters bugs me more.
(also, puzzled by the SW reference, since we're introduced to x-wing fighters as FTL capable in the OT)
The Last Jedi shows us that ramming into enemy ships at hyperspeed is a viable (and highly effective) tactic - which absolutely destroys every prior space battle in the franchise where it isn't used - the battle of Yavin could have been over in seconds! Rise of Skywalker tries to handwave it away as only being a one in a million occurrence, but that creates huge narrative problems for Last Jedi (lol Holdo's plan was a one in a million shot at suicide), and we see it happen again in Rise of Skywalker anyway!
Why aren't the Necrons trivialising every naval engagement by ramming their enemies with expendable fighters? Or using them as planetary bombardment?
Tomb-blades as top-of-the-line aero-space fighters bugs me more.
(also, puzzled by the SW reference, since we're introduced to x-wing fighters as FTL capable in the OT)
The Last Jedi shows us that ramming into enemy ships at hyperspeed is a viable (and highly effective) tactic - which absolutely destroys every prior space battle in the franchise where it isn't used - the battle of Yavin could have been over in seconds! Rise of Skywalker tries to handwave it away as only being a one in a million occurrence, but that creates huge narrative problems for Last Jedi (lol Holdo's plan was a one in a million shot at suicide), and we see it happen again in Rise of Skywalker anyway!
Why aren't the Necrons trivialising every naval engagement by ramming their enemies with expendable fighters? Or using them as planetary bombardment?
From a 40k stance, who cares what SW does?
And why would you want one franchises bad writing to apply to another (wich often has its own bad writing)?
Tomb-blades as top-of-the-line aero-space fighters bugs me more.
(also, puzzled by the SW reference, since we're introduced to x-wing fighters as FTL capable in the OT)
The Last Jedi shows us that ramming into enemy ships at hyperspeed is a viable (and highly effective) tactic - which absolutely destroys every prior space battle in the franchise where it isn't used - the battle of Yavin could have been over in seconds! Rise of Skywalker tries to handwave it away as only being a one in a million occurrence, but that creates huge narrative problems for Last Jedi (lol Holdo's plan was a one in a million shot at suicide), and we see it happen again in Rise of Skywalker anyway!
Why aren't the Necrons trivialising every naval engagement by ramming their enemies with expendable fighters? Or using them as planetary bombardment?
From a 40k stance, who cares what SW does?
And why would you want one franchises bad writing to apply to another (wich often has its own bad writing)?
Because Rian Johnson made a middling-at-best, terrible-at-worst movie. Since that is attached to one of the biggest names in Hollywood IP, we have to hear about it from now 'til the end of time from aggrieved nerds. Even in a context where it doesn't matter at all, they will bring it up.
The thing about 40k is that no one person can grasp the fullness of it.
Tomb-blades as top-of-the-line aero-space fighters bugs me more.
(also, puzzled by the SW reference, since we're introduced to x-wing fighters as FTL capable in the OT)
The Last Jedi shows us that ramming into enemy ships at hyperspeed is a viable (and highly effective) tactic - which absolutely destroys every prior space battle in the franchise where it isn't used - the battle of Yavin could have been over in seconds! Rise of Skywalker tries to handwave it away as only being a one in a million occurrence, but that creates huge narrative problems for Last Jedi (lol Holdo's plan was a one in a million shot at suicide), and we see it happen again in Rise of Skywalker anyway!
Why aren't the Necrons trivialising every naval engagement by ramming their enemies with expendable fighters? Or using them as planetary bombardment?
From a 40k stance, who cares what SW does?
And why would you want one franchises bad writing to apply to another (wich often has its own bad writing)?
Because Rian Johnson made a middling-at-best, terrible-at-worst movie. Since that is attached to one of the biggest names in Hollywood IP, we have to hear about it from now 'til the end of time from aggrieved nerds. Even in a context where it doesn't matter at all, they will bring it up.
Thread title is about lore. Post is about poor handling of in-lore FTL capability, and compares it to another example of poor handling of in-lore FTL capability. Is asked to explain. Explains.
Seems pretty straight forward. If "aggrieved nerds" bother you maybe don't hang out in a thread about "hating the lore"? Lol, just sayin.
Sorry, but I adore this piece of lore. I want to imagine SMs wandering around with empty Grav Guns tied to strings like they're balloons. Or, better still, a SM running out of ammo and being carried up into the stratosphere because he refuses to let go.
'Brother, no! It's a lost cause!'
'The Grav-Gun is my sacred responsibility, brother. Carry on the fight without meeeeeeeeeeee.'
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Sorry, but I adore this piece of lore. I want to imagine SMs wandering around with empty Grav Guns tied to strings like they're balloons. Or, better still, a SM running out of ammo and being carried up into the stratosphere because he refuses to let go.
'Brother, no! It's a lost cause!'
'The Grav-Gun is my sacred responsibility, brother. Carry on the fight without meeeeeeeeeeee.'
Gadzilla666 wrote: @OP: Regarding your problems with 8th Legion lore: Which books on the 8th Legion have you seen reading? And by which particular author?
I know this might piss you off and probably any other fellow brothers of the Legion around, but please don't flay me just yet. Hear me out. Aaron-Dembski Bowden. I think he's a great dude, but after reading some of his stuff in the Heresy era I have grown to dislike his writing. I've read all of the Night Lords Trilogy (ADB at his best), Savage Weapons (I hate this one for how pointless it is), Prince of Crows (I hate this one, it's pure edge), The Abyssal Edge (I liked it for background's sake), The Long Night (I AM JUDGEMENT! TIER). I also really, really dislike the Primarch Novel for one reason: Curze killing the suicidal girl. I'm extremely mentally ill myself and it kind of came off as the author trying to make Curze as evil as possible. I adore their Horus Heresy Black Book though.
No anger here. You're quite welcome to your opinions. I do, however, find it interesting that you enjoy ADB's 40k 8th Legion work, but dislike his 30k work. Is it possible that you just dislike the character of Sevatar, since he is central to all of those stories? I could definitely see how someone could see his "snarkiness" as "edgy for edgies sake" (though I can't think of anything "whiny" about him).
Fully agreed on the Curze novel, and everything else that Haley has done to the 8th whenever given the chance. It's obvious that he neither understands, nor likes, the Legion, and goes out of his way to make them look as bad as possible every chance that he gets. If you haven't read any of his other work regarding the 8th, I'd advise you to avoid it, as it just features more of the stuff that you profess to dislike.
Sevatar is extremely charming and genuinely tragic (you see many instances where he doesn't fit in among his own legion or any group really, it's why I loved The Long Night). He can get a little too "theatrical" for my tastes at times. I still think ADB is probably the only man next to Chris Wraight who can properly write a space marine. He still makes them feel inhuman even his really whiny guys like, Iskander, has loads of inhumanity to his character (the fact his shuttle is literally his sister and his two Rubricae are like the only remaining part of his past life).
Maybe, I'm just being a little to hard on Aaron? He's genuinely the only guy who even slightly interested me with Primaris Marines (Emperor's Spears is a novel I really need to get around to reading, lol), so that's gotta count for something.
Anywho, after reading a lot of the posts about how they handle the lore problems. Yeah I think I need to take a step back, figure out what I actually enjoy now, and just stick to it. If that means experimenting with the nu-gak, so be it. I've got a few hours worth of videos on the new lore like Leutin's series on the Octarius War, a basic primer on the Adeptus Mechanicus (I'm familiar with them from 30k, but not really 40k cuz aesthetic), the Lion's Return, Vashtorr, and some Ynnari/Ynnead stuff. I'll see where this takes me. Maybe start writing my own lore, while staying true to the general canon.
I think it just hurts seeing something you love change so drastically and with a genuine lack of care.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/08/01 07:41:36
I advise a more general approach to lore. Enjoy the theme of the army not specifics and minutiae.
For example I like how orks are madmaxian brutal fungi that thrive on constant fighting. I don't care which specific warboss fought which specific IG general on which world in which year and what they exactly did then - such details are bound to become inconsistent over the scope of how huge the lore has become.
Specific, personalised stories and minutiae of the faction's operations will emerge from your games.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/08/01 09:48:02
Cyel wrote: I advise a more general approach to lore. Enjoy the theme of the army not specifics and minutiae.
For example I like how orks are madmaxian brutal fungi that strive on constant fighting. I don't care which specific warboss fought which specific IG general on which world in which year and what they exactly did then - such details are bound to become inconsistent over the scope of how huge the lore has become.
Specific, personalised stories and minutiae of the faction's operations will emerge from your games.
This. I'm only reading bits and pieces here and there - when I want to know more about a character, or a subject. I don't dive deep. For me, the lore is very important, but only as a setting, a background where I paint and play with my minis.
solution: take the bits of the Lore you like, ignore the rest and make up stuff to fill in the gaps
e.g. my Marines, the 37th Tiosen Rifles, are simply the 37th regiment of a much larger military (a Primaries regiment was raised as the 38th as required)
they follow much of the earlier fluff that they are basically better trained, much better equipped and cybernetic/bionetic enhancements applied over the basic humans who make up the 221st Infanty and 158th Infantry they fight alongside as required
not that they can fight alongside so easily these days, but then they couldn't in 5th when the regiment started either
Did they give necrons their ftl back after the whole dolmen gate nonsense? How about tau? Them losing ftl was one of the most nonsense changes I ever read.
Yeah Forge World gave Necrons their FTL back a bit after GW took it away From what I gather, that's carried across into other things too because GW realised it was a dumb descision.
Tau never lost their FTL, it's just that it was always worse than the other races (since it didn't peirce the warp, just skim the edge of it and realsapce). Part of the lore of the 4th Sphere was that Tau started using experimental warp-peircing FTL reverse engineered from Imperial Warp Drives... but it all went wrong when the Ethereals ignored the advice of the Earth Caste and activated them en-mase all at once in the same system, tearing reality asunder and resulting in the program getting scrapped
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/08/01 12:11:28
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Tau never lost their FTL, it's just that it was always worse than the other races (since it didn't peirce the warp, just skim the edge of it and realsapce). Part of the lore of the 4th Sphere was that Tau started using experimental warp-peircing FTL reverse engineered from Imperial Warp Drives... but it all went wrong when the Ethereals ignored the advice of the Earth Caste and activated them en-mase all at once in the same system, tearing reality asunder and resulting in the program getting scrapped
There was definitely a period where GW wrote out FTL for Tau, and made them a sublight race. It caused a lot of calling GW idiots at the time.
Why are you reading 40k novels explicitly aimed at children?
Why shouldn't I?
Why don't you think that children deserve good writing?
'There is nothing worth reading at 5 that isn't equally worth reading at 55.'
I might have that quotation slightly wrong, but Roald Dahl knew what he was talking about.
My opinion is that the good writers have mostly gone now, or were loaded with SoT content. Average writers have filled the void. The quality of fiction has always been inconsistent (going all the way back to the old Boxtree days) but the overall quality has definitely dropped.After the final SoT book, I doubt I'll read any new publications. I hope that I am proved wrong (Black Legion 3...).
Like how would a faction without FTL even work in 40K? They would be completely irrelevant as it would take them centuries or even millennia to get anywhere.
Crimson wrote: Like how would a faction without FTL even work in 40K? They would be completely irrelevant as it would take them centuries or even millennia to get anywhere.
They used stasis chambers, because that helps the nonsense apparenlty. T'au codex 8th edition:
In order to reach those more distant systems earmarked as desirable by advanced scouts, the vast armadas of T'au spacecraft had been outfitted with the latest Earth caste modifications. The ships' propulsion systems were upgraded so that when magnified by impulse reactors, the engines could obtain faster speeds, propelling ships forwards at hitherto unthinkable velocities. To further lessen the burden on those space-faring craft with the longest journeys, the Earth caste had outfitted transport vessels with large stasis chambers, allowing Hunter Cadres or whole commands to shift to far distant battle zones months or years away without actually aging a day in the process.
Well that really is pants-on-head stupid
Seems like they removed the Tau's old FTL just to immediately give it back to them... then give a lore reason to immediately take it away again.
Crimson wrote: Like how would a faction without FTL even work in 40K? They would be completely irrelevant as it would take them centuries or even millennia to get anywhere.
They used stasis chambers, because that helps the nonsense apparenlty. T'au codex 8th edition:
In order to reach those more distant systems earmarked as desirable by advanced scouts, the vast armadas of T'au spacecraft had been outfitted with the latest Earth caste modifications. The ships' propulsion systems were upgraded so that when magnified by impulse reactors, the engines could obtain faster speeds, propelling ships forwards at hitherto unthinkable velocities. To further lessen the burden on those space-faring craft with the longest journeys, the Earth caste had outfitted transport vessels with large stasis chambers, allowing Hunter Cadres or whole commands to shift to far distant battle zones months or years away without actually aging a day in the process.
Well, they haven't aged a day? It's like time stopped entirely!.... right?!
Did they give necrons their ftl back after the whole dolmen gate nonsense? How about tau? Them losing ftl was one of the most nonsense changes I ever read.
Yeah Forge World gave Necrons their FTL back a bit after GW took it away From what I gather, that's carried across into other things too because GW realised it was a dumb descision.
The 5th edition codex never actually removed Necron realspace FTL - it just didn't mention it, while adding dolmen gates as a 'fast' travel option.
The Word Bearers omnibus was re-published shortly after the 5th edition codex, and that contained explicit realspace FTL travel.
Even with realspace FTL though, deployment of fleets can still be slow (the ship in Dark Creed takes several months to arrive at it's destination, for example) relative to teleportation or webway travel.
Lord Damocles wrote: The 5th edition codex never actually removed Necron realspace FTL - it just didn't mention it, while adding dolmen gates as a 'fast' travel option.
Necron 5th edition codex:
As a race bereft of psykers, the Necrons are incapable of warp travel, and without access to the webway, they would be forced to rely once more on slow-voyaging stasis-ships, all but ending their ambition to re-establish their empire of old.
Lord Damocles wrote: The 5th edition codex never actually removed Necron realspace FTL - it just didn't mention it, while adding dolmen gates as a 'fast' travel option.
Necron 5th edition codex:
As a race bereft of psykers, the Necrons are incapable of warp travel, and without access to the webway, they would be forced to rely once more on slow-voyaging stasis-ships, all but ending their ambition to re-establish their empire of old.
Lord Damocles wrote: Even with realspace FTL though, deployment of fleets can still be slow (the ship in Dark Creed takes several months to arrive at it's destination, for example) relative to teleportation or webway travel.
Space big. Big distance still take big time realspace FTL. Realspace FTL slow compared to webway, teleportation (which only works if you already have something at the destination anyway).
Even warp travel takes long spans of time. Months in space is not uncommon. It also comes with the potential risk that you can get messed around and arrive before you left or appear generations later or just get lost entirely.
One reason we don't perhaps see it as often is because the months/years spent travelling are still short spans of time in a setting where most major heroes have extended lifespans.
Crimson wrote: Like how would a faction without FTL even work in 40K? They would be completely irrelevant as it would take them centuries or even millennia to get anywhere.
They used stasis chambers, because that helps the nonsense apparenlty. T'au codex 8th edition:
In order to reach those more distant systems earmarked as desirable by advanced scouts, the vast armadas of T'au spacecraft had been outfitted with the latest Earth caste modifications. The ships' propulsion systems were upgraded so that when magnified by impulse reactors, the engines could obtain faster speeds, propelling ships forwards at hitherto unthinkable velocities. To further lessen the burden on those space-faring craft with the longest journeys, the Earth caste had outfitted transport vessels with large stasis chambers, allowing Hunter Cadres or whole commands to shift to far distant battle zones months or years away without actually aging a day in the process.
Well, they haven't aged a day? It's like time stopped entirely!.... right?!
Sorta!
Old tau lore had them using not-quite-warp travel to get around slower than imperial ships but fast enough to eventually expand a bit. This is why a big chunk of their lore involves the Damocles Gulf; a stretch of space that wouldn't be a big deal for imperials but is a significant voyage for the tau. Basically, warp travel in 40k is literally magic. Tau travel using a combination of slower magic and basically magic wormhole portal gates. So it's kind of hard to say tau are "too slow to be relevant" or what have you because you have to make assertions about how fast their magic travel is.
And yeah, tau stasis seems to either completely or nearly completely arrest aging. Plus you've got farsight's magic sword that apparently de-ages him when he stabs people?
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
Overread wrote: Even warp travel takes long spans of time. Months in space is not uncommon. It also comes with the potential risk that you can get messed around and arrive before you left or appear generations later or just get lost entirely.
One reason we don't perhaps see it as often is because the months/years spent travelling are still short spans of time in a setting where most major heroes have extended lifespans.
The creation of iconic heroes that do not has always been one of the tricky issues with moving the timeline forward.
Overread wrote: Even warp travel takes long spans of time. Months in space is not uncommon. It also comes with the potential risk that you can get messed around and arrive before you left or appear generations later or just get lost entirely.
One reason we don't perhaps see it as often is because the months/years spent travelling are still short spans of time in a setting where most major heroes have extended lifespans.
The Milky Way Galaxy is approximately 80,000 light years across. FTL travel at 1000 times the speed of light (not quite Warp 8 in Star Trek) would take 80 years to cross the Galaxy.
This is why the Imperium put up with the risks of Warp Travel. It is the only way to maintain a Galaxy-spanning empire. It is also why the Tau are regulated to a corner of the Galaxy where there FTL travel makes an empire possible.
Lord Damocles wrote: The 5th edition codex never actually removed Necron realspace FTL - it just didn't mention it, while adding dolmen gates as a 'fast' travel option.
Necron 5th edition codex:
As a race bereft of psykers, the Necrons are incapable of warp travel, and without access to the webway, they would be forced to rely once more on slow-voyaging stasis-ships, all but ending their ambition to re-establish their empire of old.
Lord Damocles wrote: Even with realspace FTL though, deployment of fleets can still be slow (the ship in Dark Creed takes several months to arrive at it's destination, for example) relative to teleportation or webway travel.
Space big. Big distance still take big time realspace FTL. Realspace FTL slow compared to webway, teleportation (which only works if you already have something at the destination anyway).
However there's a vague bit in the 3rd ed book about Necron ships that could "cross the galaxy in the galaxy in the blink of an eye" . . . (Probably not exact quote, no codex atm). I seem to recall some other tidbits in the BFG Necron lore, but it's been a while since I looked.
The impression I always had was not just FTL, but fast.
The caveat for the 3rd ed quote being that was at the height of their power, and it's possible that capability has degraded. But whatever the BFG stuff is, it was "current". I'd dig for it, but am away from my resources.
Abanshee wrote: Does the lore really even matter? With the recent dip in lore quality and the more recent lore additions, I'm honestly left asking what's the point anymore? It's like the deeper I dive into the novels, games, pre-history of 40k, and sourcebooks that my appreciation for the setting drops. I know that this is primarily a setting designed around selling miniatures and at the end of the day, that's GW's top priority. However, that just led me to question as to why so many people are even invested in such an expensive hobby or more so what's the point?
Same as with every other fictional setting: headcanon. Ignore the stuff you dislike, you will not receive a badge for staying trve to canon. I mostly ignore NuCrons, but I really liked that new Szeras sculpt so I just bought it as a modelling project and future display piece. I tried to get into The Infinite and the Divine, but I just couldn't make it work in my slice of 40k, so I refunded the audiobook.
Earlier this year, my old Death Guard bug bit me and I bought a box of plague marines to salvage convert them into properly scaled and less mutated versions. I also got around to listening to a couple of novels from the past Indomitus era because of the DG's involvement, and they were fine. Not amazing, but fine to catch up on some of the more recent developments. Mortarion I just cannot stand as he is portrayed in the novels, but the miniature is one of the best GW ever produced, so I'll likely get it at some point.
Lastly, I was very hesitant on the new Leviathan stuff, so I got the novel on Audible and some choice miniatures from the big set off eBay. The best way to avoid bad feelings about 40k is to not overcommit. Pace yourself and your purchases, engage only with whatever makes you happy and ignore the rest. Cur your losses, both in terms of time and money. Don't like a novel? Refund/resell it. A kit hasn't turned out to be as fun to build as you had imagined? Sell it online at a decent discount. I've had this approach for several years now and I've never been happier about my hobby.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/08/02 01:32:58
Lord Damocles wrote: The 5th edition codex never actually removed Necron realspace FTL - it just didn't mention it, while adding dolmen gates as a 'fast' travel option.
Necron 5th edition codex:
As a race bereft of psykers, the Necrons are incapable of warp travel, and without access to the webway, they would be forced to rely once more on slow-voyaging stasis-ships, all but ending their ambition to re-establish their empire of old.
Lord Damocles wrote: Even with realspace FTL though, deployment of fleets can still be slow (the ship in Dark Creed takes several months to arrive at it's destination, for example) relative to teleportation or webway travel.
Space big. Big distance still take big time realspace FTL. Realspace FTL slow compared to webway, teleportation (which only works if you already have something at the destination anyway).
However there's a vague bit in the 3rd ed book about Necron ships that could "cross the galaxy in the galaxy in the blink of an eye" . . . (Probably not exact quote, no codex atm). I seem to recall some other tidbits in the BFG Necron lore, but it's been a while since I looked.
The impression I always had was not just FTL, but fast.
The caveat for the 3rd ed quote being that was at the height of their power, and it's possible that capability has degraded. But whatever the BFG stuff is, it was "current". I'd dig for it, but am away from my resources.
Sidenote: You remembered right, that's the exact quote. There's another bit later that mentions Necron ships have never been seen translating to or from the Warp, but also appearing well inside max sensor range without warning (though they have been seen to decelerate upon arrival). I'd assume BFG would have more, but I don't have those rulebooks to hand so I couldn't say.
