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Does the lore really even matter? With the recent dip in lore quality and the more recent lore additions, I'm honestly left asking what's the point anymore? It's like the deeper I dive into the novels, games, pre-history of 40k, and sourcebooks that my appreciation for the setting drops. I know that this is primarily a setting designed around selling miniatures and at the end of the day, that's GW's top priority. However, that just led me to question as to why so many people are even invested in such an expensive hobby or more so what's the point?

If not the lore, is it just pure aesthetics? Are the models really the only reason anyone is here? Buyer's stockholm syndrome, lol? The so called "wonderful community"? The awful rules? I was never here for any of that.

I've got a good understanding of most of the factions, I've read close to 25 Black Library books, read every one of the FW Imperial Armour, read all of the Horus Heresy Black Books, and have caught myself up on most of the new lore like the Indomitus Crusade. The only thing I like anymore are the Leagues of Votann and Orks. That's simply because they have little to no lore on them and GW hasn't had the chance to feth them up. Everything, I used to enjoy has been changed to a point where I either no longer like it or I actively hate it. Like, I used to sympathize with the Night Lords and actually thought their terroristic actions were completely justified. Now, I think they're a bunch of whiny man-children, who just like being edgy for the sake of being edgy.

Tyranids? Blatant xenomorph rip-offs that lose 24/7. Tau? Slowly turning into the Imperium 2.0. Space Marines? Plot armor thicker than steel and portrayed as whiny teens rather than professional inhuman soldiers. Chaos? Bigger joke than the Empire from Star Wars. Necrons? Please don't remind me of the worst faction/lore update in the game's history. Eldar? Ynnead, really living up to that "god of the dead" title cuz he's just as dead in the lore, also Ynnari.

I dunno it's a mid-life wargaming crisis or what? It just sucks I can't enjoy the lore anymore the way I used to without finding something blatantly wrong about it and writing it off as gak. How did you stop hating the lore, if you ever have? Or is it time to look for greener pastures?

The make it your own aspect is what keeps me attracted.

I think I appreciate the lore from more of a bird's eye view. I'm mostly distracted by the writing styles of the authors and their microscopes which I just can't get over. Though I've only a sampling under my belt compared so be your own judge.

The good thing about the lore is you can pretty much pick what interests you and ignore the rest.

I just ignore the modern stuff. Phil Kelly is a hack and his Tau novels are grimderp trash but I don't have to consider them canon, I can stick with the original lore for the faction. The Horus Heresy novels completely miss the point of the Heresy lore but who cares about the primarch soap opera, I can pretend none of it exists and that entire era is still mythology and half truths. Etc.

 Adeptekon wrote:
The make it your own aspect is what keeps me attracted.

I think I appreciate the lore from more of a bird's eye view. I'm mostly distracted by the writing styles of the authors and their microscopes which I just can't get over. Though I've only a sampling under my belt compared so be your own judge.

The good thing about the lore is you can pretty much pick what interests you and ignore the rest.

I really wish I could ignore it. However, if I so much as glance at a faction I dislike, it immediately brings out all of the negative qualities I equate to bad writing. I have been enjoying making lore a lot more, but I (I wrote a French WW1 Guard Regiment and had a lot of fun. They essentially had the most number of battlefield executions, incompetent commanders, basilisks, and primarily fought Blood Axe Orks) can't get over the feeling my writing is bad or gak, so I'll usually end up scrapping entire army ideas out of a genuine fear of criticism from others. Also, I'm immensely depressed right now, so it ain't helping my writing or self-esteem.

I have a tendency to let things get to me and bad lore is one of them.

You might start by actually reading it. Your claim “tyranids are just xenomorphs” strongly suggests you’ve not read any Tyranid background.

I’d also recommend reading the Votann Codex, because their background is quite incredible. It does a solid job of calling back to their original incarnation, their brief time in the wilderness where they may or may not have been Demiurg, into their current form, whilst being neatly slotted into pre-Imperial history of mankind, with some pretty interesting propositions about those now barely documented days. Super short version? They’re essentially a slave race, engineered to enjoy what they do, and without the capacity to care that they only love what they do because it’s a means of control devised by a now long gone corporations or civilisation.

Primaries are also surprisingly interesting when you read into Cawl’s background. No disagreement his introduction was somewhat botched, but he’s developed nicely. Super short version is it really illustrates how the now monickered First Born really were a rush job. A desperate salvaging of the Primarchs post-abduction. And a reminder that The Emperor was nothing if not a relentless tinkerer. Cawl himself invented nothing. Rather he was able to pick up where the original Astartes left off when they got to a “Good Enough” stage. Using the original project’s notes (which he may or may not have been involved in directly) he completed certain odds and ends, bringing the resulting Primaris Marines arguably closer to what The Emperor originally intended the Primarch’s sons to be.

Engage openly and honestly in lore discussion here on Dakka. No I don’t mean “and simply agree with everything I am say”. I ask only that you take it all onboard.

And a general rule of thumb for life? Don’t focus on anything you don’t enjoy. It gets you nowhere and serves no purpose. I mean, I can moan for Britain when it comes to stuff I don’t like (reality tv, sports, celeb culture, Rick and Morty, The Orville, the media blackout on Rock and Metal music). I just….don’t. I don’t watch it. I don’t discuss it. I do my best to ignore it, instead seeking out things I do enjoy. Nor do I especially care what the next person thinks about stuff I enjoy, as long as they’re not being disingenuous or outright lying. But even then that’s less to do with “how dare they say mean things about thing I like”, and more I have a strong dislike for lies and liars.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You might start by actually reading it. Your claim “tyranids are just xenomorphs” strongly suggests you’ve not read any Tyranid background.

I’d also recommend reading the Votann Codex, because their background is quite incredible. It does a solid job of calling back to their original incarnation, their brief time in the wilderness where they may or may not have been Demiurg, into their current form, whilst being neatly slotted into pre-Imperial history of mankind, with some pretty interesting propositions about those now barely documented days. Super short version? They’re essentially a slave race, engineered to enjoy what they do, and without the capacity to care that they only love what they do because it’s a means of control devised by a now long gone corporations or civilisation.

Primaries are also surprisingly interesting when you read into Cawl’s background. No disagreement his introduction was somewhat botched, but he’s developed nicely. Super short version is it really illustrates how the now monickered First Born really were a rush job. A desperate salvaging of the Primarchs post-abduction. And a reminder that The Emperor was nothing if not a relentless tinkerer. Cawl himself invented nothing. Rather he was able to pick up where the original Astartes left off when they got to a “Good Enough” stage. Using the original project’s notes (which he may or may not have been involved in directly) he completed certain odds and ends, bringing the resulting Primaris Marines arguably closer to what The Emperor originally intended the Primarch’s sons to be.

Engage openly and honestly in lore discussion here on Dakka. No I don’t mean “and simply agree with everything I am say”. I ask only that you take it all onboard.

And a general rule of thumb for life? Don’t focus on anything you don’t enjoy. It gets you nowhere and serves no purpose. I mean, I can moan for Britain when it comes to stuff I don’t like (reality tv, sports, celeb culture, Rick and Morty, The Orville, the media blackout on Rock and Metal music). I just….don’t. I don’t watch it. I don’t discuss it. I do my best to ignore it, instead seeking out things I do enjoy. Nor do I especially care what the next person thinks about stuff I enjoy, as long as they’re not being disingenuous or outright lying. But even then that’s less to do with “how dare they say mean things about thing I like”, and more I have a strong dislike for lies and liars.

The Tyranids quote was hyperbole. Of course there is more too them, however, they suffer from the exact same problems that xenomorphs do. It's an enemy for good guys to shoot at in droves rather than an unstoppable tide out of Lovecraft's wildest dreams. That's a awfully hostile way to reply, but I expected this type of pushback. They're still uncomfortably similar either way: both have a hive mind, fethed up life cycles, are highly adaptable to any environment, and have different types of biological lifeforms made for specific purposes (Xenos got Praetorians, Runners, Crushers, and Royal Facehuggers).

I'm a quarter of the way into Votann codex. I already said I liked them.

Primaris were poorly implemented, simple as that. If it's poorly implemented in the first place, I'm not going to be very invested to begin with and will have to force myself to read it. I'll try reading some of Cawl's stuff, but will most likely dislike it. I never really touched Ad-Mech in general (Outside of the Black Books) because there aesthetic was off to what I think they should look like and I was never really interested in them too begin with (Mechanicum was like one of the first few novels I skipped in the Heresy). Sounds, like massive damage control to me. I'll give it a try though.

It's kind of hard to not focus on something when it's on your mind most of time. I love 40k, but god do I fething hate it as well. Like, I said above I have a hard, hard time ignoring lore blunders and usually too much bad writing will ruin something for me entirely. Again, I like Votann and Orks, but really wish I could enjoy (Night Lords, Tyranids, Tau, and The Imperium in general again) the old stuff I liked again.

Like any fan of any long-running media (Star Wars, Star Trek, comics...) you complain loudly about how it was better back when you liked it and disregard anything that came later.

Again I don’t think you’ve read any Tyranid background. Not to mention you don’t seem aware of the timeline for Nids and Xenomorphs.

Prior to Alien 3? We saw a total of four Xenomorph creatures. Egg. Facehugger. Alien. Alien Queen.

Tyranids were a bioengineered race from the get go. Their initial formalised army list and background arrived, to the best of my knowledge, in White Dwarf 145, January 1992. That same issue (which I happen to have on hand) also includes Genestealer Hybrids. Indeed Hybrids arrived in the lore no later than 1990, in the Genestealer expansion for Space Hulk.

Xenomorphs wouldn’t get “the host informs the bug” until Alien 3 released in May 1992. And it wouldn’t get anything akin to Hybrids until the Colonial Marines comic in 1994.

So the only commonality between Nids and Xenomorphs? They’re space bug things with a hive mind who have exoskeletons. Space Ants, if you will. But really? That’s about it. Indeed Tyranids have a far greater background, and their own means of interstellar travel.

To claim stuff introduced to the Alien franchise after Tyranids were properly codified in the run up to 2nd Ed has been stolen from Aliens is up there with “40K just ripped off StarCraft”.

Are xenomorphs a hive-mind? I never got that impression. I mean, yes they serve the queen but in an insect sort of way, not like actually psychic/telepathically connected.

Tyranids are, at least in my experience, pretty unique. Yes they're drawn from the Bugs from Starship Troopers, but they evolved into the idea of an entire predatory ecosystem-as-organism which feels pretty unique.

Stories written with/about them are often bad because many of the BL authors are bad. So I don't read much BL.

Part of growing up is realizing that expanded universe lore in every franchise is almost always bad and has always been mostly bad. Although much of the whining about certain aspects of 40k lore is just whining that the lore wasn't what the fan expected it to be and they are angry their headcanon has been disproven.

Anyway, consider I don't know, reading a real book or something? I have read like one 40k book in the past year and I am completely at peace with that.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Again I don’t think you’ve read any Tyranid background. Not to mention you don’t seem aware of the timeline for Nids and Xenomorphs.

Prior to Alien 3? We saw a total of four Xenomorph creatures. Egg. Facehugger. Alien. Alien Queen.

Tyranids were a bioengineered race from the get go. Their initial formalised army list and background arrived, to the best of my knowledge, in White Dwarf 145, January 1992. That same issue (which I happen to have on hand) also includes Genestealer Hybrids. Indeed Hybrids arrived in the lore no later than 1990, in the Genestealer expansion for Space Hulk.

Xenomorphs wouldn’t get “the host informs the bug” until Alien 3 released in May 1992. And it wouldn’t get anything akin to Hybrids until the Colonial Marines comic in 1994.

So the only commonality between Nids and Xenomorphs? They’re space bug things with a hive mind who have exoskeletons. Space Ants, if you will. But really? That’s about it. Indeed Tyranids have a far greater background, and their own means of interstellar travel.

To claim stuff introduced to the Alien franchise after Tyranids were properly codified in the run up to 2nd Ed has been stolen from Aliens is up there with “40K just ripped off StarCraft”.

I wonder what this strange book on my desk called, "Codex: Tyranids" is about? Has this ominous line on the spine of it that says "The Great Beast is come. The Devourer of Worlds.". Also, has this weird quote by some old fart named Czevak on
the back of it.

That's still four creatures. Your also not separating warriors from drones (the xeno in the 1979 film is not the same as the xenos in the 1986 film). Also, leaving out that they are both species that are highly adaptable to any given environment. The xenomorph has also been shown to be highly adaptive of it's surroundings ("WHAT DO YOU MEAN THEY CUT THE POWER! HOW COULD THEY CUT THE POWER MAN! THERE ANIMALS!" - William Hudson, Aliens (1986)) before the dates you listed. I mean they went down to the atmospheric processor because it was a warm and dry environment to set up there nest, killed over 150 colonists with like 10-12 initially getting infected, cut the fething power, and had enough smarts to back off when Ripley threatened their young.

The intent was always there and was only fully fleshed out by Alien 3. So, yes the basic idea for a Genestealer and the Tyranids has it's roots in the Alien franchise. They both even have a similiar aesthetic design with dorsal ridges, domed heads, secondary mouths, and a Giger-esque style to their exoskeletons.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Are xenomorphs a hive-mind? I never got that impression. I mean, yes they serve the queen but in an insect sort of way, not like actually psychic/telepathically connected.

Tyranids are, at least in my experience, pretty unique. Yes they're drawn from the Bugs from Starship Troopers, but they evolved into the idea of an entire predatory ecosystem-as-organism which feels pretty unique.

Stories written with/about them are often bad because many of the BL authors are bad. So I don't read much BL.

God, I love me some xenomorphs. They're definitely not psychic or telepathic. However, they're all hyper-intelligent (enough to know that power runs through power lines thus generating light and that cutting it, disables it) and certainly a hive-mind in the sense that the only thing they're collectively focused on is procreating as much as possible/keeping the queen's chamber safe..

I can see the similarities with the Bugs from Starship Troopers, but Genestealers are where I start to question the author's creative liberties a little bit. The whole Genestealer's Kiss just sounds like the reproductive cycle of a facehugger, but slightly rehashed.

Also, yeah I agree. BL is trash for the most part.

^The Genestealer and xenomorph are absolutely related, sure. The greater Tyranid superorganism though, seemingly much less so.

Edit: The whole genestealer life cycle thing is, imo, waaaay creepier and more subversive.

If I hate something I either strive to understand why I hate it and thus why it might annoy me and then see if that is factual or not.
The other option is to ignore it if its only one part of something I enjoy and to instead focus on the parts I do enjoy. The lore might not be for you right now and you might prefer the older lore. Great go read it; there's mountains of it enough to keep you engaged for utterly ages. Or perhaps put the lore to one side and focus on other areas of the game and hobby.

And if not then perhaps step out from 40K entirely into something else.

One thing I've noticed over the years is that people have interests and focuses that shift over time and when this happens within a hobby the mind/person can often fight it hard. They strive to remain within the thing that once brought them joy; even though it is no longer doing so and could even be bringing them anger and frustration with what they perceive as failings. Trying to fight that is hard when its a hobby and it can make something so un-fun that you end up having a massive breakdown in the future and never return.
Sometimes the best thing is to step back and try other things; get a fresh take. Perhaps a different game; a different lore; a different hobby entirely. Sometimes just stepping away for a short while recharges your interest.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Are xenomorphs a hive-mind? I never got that impression. I mean, yes they serve the queen but in an insect sort of way, not like actually psychic/telepathically connected.

Tyranids are, at least in my experience, pretty unique. Yes they're drawn from the Bugs from Starship Troopers, but they evolved into the idea of an entire predatory ecosystem-as-organism which feels pretty unique.

Stories written with/about them are often bad because many of the BL authors are bad. So I don't read much BL.

Xenomorph lore depends where you take it from. The original 4 films, and honestly most of the newer ones, don't actually tell us much about them. We basically deal with either loan individuals or very small very new broods; with most of the interaction being basic sneaking, hunting, killing on both sides.


If you dip into the original comics they flesh out the Xenomorphs a lot lot more. To the point where yes they do exhibit psy capacity as well as many other traits.






As for Tyranids, they are like a lot of 40K. A grab-bag of multiple alien influences of the day mixed up and thrown out and adapted over time.
Heck they inspired the Zerg of Starcraft who then inspired the Tyranids right back - just look at those Hydralisks from Starcraft and the concept of a Ravener, esp some of the original head designs and such.

You can certainly see some of the influences, heck the original Hormagaunts were a Xenomorph with lance-arms; meanwhile Genestealers copy out a lot of the concepts of infection and hosts. However they take a different path in that genestealers don't become their host; their hosts become genestealers (to a greater degree over time as the cult matures).
So yeah you can see elements of Xenomorphs, Bugs from Starship Troopers, Zerg and dozens of other films and books and stuff.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^The Genestealer and xenomorph are absolutely related, sure. The greater Tyranid superorganism though, seemingly much less so.

Edit: The whole genestealer life cycle thing is, imo, waaaay creepier and more subversive.

Eh, different strokes for different folks. I find xenomorphs scarier because they play off more primal fears: a lifeform far more intelligent than you, fear or violation, the dark, and the unknown.


I can't take Genestealer Cults seriously when I see they're heads. I'm like, "did that insane priest just glue a purple sea shell to his forehead? OH gak HE'S GOT AN AUTOGUN!". I am glad that Tyranids are getting a model update though, they needed it badly. Termagants actually look terrifying now.

@OP: Regarding your problems with 8th Legion lore: Which books on the 8th Legion have you seen reading? And by which particular author?

Adeptekon wrote:The make it your own aspect is what keeps me attracted.

I think I appreciate the lore from more of a bird's eye view. I'm mostly distracted by the writing styles of the authors and their microscopes which I just can't get over. Though I've only a sampling under my belt compared so be your own judge.

The good thing about the lore is you can pretty much pick what interests you and ignore the rest.

AnomanderRake wrote:Like any fan of any long-running media (Star Wars, Star Trek, comics...) you complain loudly about how it was better back when you liked it and disregard anything that came later.

I think these quotes address it pretty well. 40k is inspired by a ton of different things and strikes a bunch of different tones at different times. The lore has so many little nooks and crannies on top of the main elements that you'll probably find something you dislike eventually.

The trick, I think, is to accept that not every single piece of the lore is going to be your cup of tea and just give your permission to have fun with the parts you do like.

Batman has been around a long time. A lot of people like goofy Adam West Batman. A lot of people like hyper-edgy Frank Miller Batman. Some people like might both, but the existence of Frank Miller Batman doesn't have to ruin all of Batman for the Adam West fans and vice versa.

It also helps, I think, to not get caught up in the setting/factions on a macro level. Give yourself permission to zoom in on the little corner of the galaxy you like even if you have to make that corner up yourself. If you liked the Night Lords until you read a novel with some angsty edge lords that drove you nuts, make up your own warband whose personalities are more to your taste. Don't like loyalist marines being wrapped in plot armor? Play a dying chapter that seems to be more grounded and bereft of the plot armor found in other corners of the galaxy. Don't like tau slowly sliding into a repeat of the imperium's fate? Focus on the exploits of a chunk of the empire that's trying avoid doing just that, and let your games on the tabletop be an attempt to keep that effort alive.

Abanshee wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^The Genestealer and xenomorph are absolutely related, sure. The greater Tyranid superorganism though, seemingly much less so.

Edit: The whole genestealer life cycle thing is, imo, waaaay creepier and more subversive.

Eh, different strokes for different folks. I find xenomorphs scarier because they play off more primal fears: a lifeform far more intelligent than you, fear or violation, the dark, and the unknown.


I can't take Genestealer Cults seriously when I see they're heads. I'm like, "did that insane priest just glue a purple sea shell to his forehead? OH gak HE'S GOT AN AUTOGUN!". I am glad that Tyranids are getting a model update though, they needed it badly. Termagants actually look terrifying now.

I get the Star Trek foreheads not working for you. Personally, I have to dig up all the illustrations with bizarre-looking 40k humans to suspend my disbelief and accept that these guys were able to "blend in" with the larger populace. But you have to admit that all those elements you say you like are present:

Smarter than you = weird alien cunning/unnerving and genuinely alien intellect of the patriarch.
Fear of violation = the genestealer's kiss; reasonably comparable to face huggers.
The dark = ... the dark. I mean, genestealers are sneaky. They crawl around in air vents and pop out of shadows. This is absolutely as true for genestealers as it is for xenomorphs.
The unknown = see above about the patriarch. Like, in addition to (eventually) being linked to the hive mind's weirdness, this guy sits on a pile of organic... stuff that is essentially magical (see the GSC relics) and can straight up manifest psychic familiars into existence.

Plus, you have that whole... creepy small town cult that will sacrifice you to the corn god vibes mixed with some Innsmouth fish-man energy.

 Abanshee wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^The Genestealer and xenomorph are absolutely related, sure. The greater Tyranid superorganism though, seemingly much less so.

Edit: The whole genestealer life cycle thing is, imo, waaaay creepier and more subversive.

Eh, different strokes for different folks. I find xenomorphs scarier because they play off more primal fears: a lifeform far more intelligent than you, fear or violation, the dark, and the unknown.


I can't take Genestealer Cults seriously when I see they're heads. I'm like, "did that insane priest just glue a purple sea shell to his forehead? OH gak HE'S GOT AN AUTOGUN!". I am glad that Tyranids are getting a model update though, they needed it badly. Termagants actually look terrifying now.

Oh don't get me wrong. I love the xenomorph. I bought the HR Giger Alien design book back in high school in the early 90's. I could have recited Aliens to you. I had the sourcebook to the RPG, a smattering of comics, plus a number of the Halcyon model kits. Oh, and a couple miniatures too. I still have some of the eggs in lead, I think.

Tyranids for me have grown into a very separate thing, and feel very different even though they have similar roots. The integrated bio-weapons, the explicit hive mind, the creation of new species by intent, the star spanning galactic threat and the one-organism-with-many-forms thing.

Maybe the comics align the two more together, I wouldn't be surprised if there were cross pollination there. I'm might be more of a purist there though, I'm more inclined to go with the movies as the primary sources of canon.

Edit: Also Tyranids get a big pass from me just because they're both not humanoid and on a different biometric scale. Every faction being both humanoid and similarly sized is honestly pretty dumb from a science fiction perspective. OG Tyranid Warriors absolutely towered over everybody else, which was refreshing.

Speaking of Xenomorphs, I personally like how the most recent Alien movies switch the lore up (that the Xenomorphs are actually a living weapon created by a madman). So no, I'm not seeing how they are like Tyranids or Genestealers anymore..

As for the other lore stuff you're fed up with, don't know what to tell you.. I stopped reading BL books by the time I was around twenty, as it felt like it was mostly just dross and didn't really offer anything more to the setting than the rulebooks themselves. To this day, I haven't really bothered to deep dive into the lore, as I'd probably just feel annoyed by it. IMHO, the less I know about the universe of the 41st Millennium, the bigger and more filled with possibility it seems to me..

TL;DR - yeh, I'm only in it for the miniatures these days

As far as 40k s concerned, the lore I mean, I skip what I don"t like. As I proudly repeat: I live in the past, never updated my headcannon to newer lore. Good thing is it's fine, no lore police has been breaking into my house and the world hasn't crumble yet because of it. Everything is fine.

I retain the idea of 40k prior to gathering storm etc, that it is a sandbox to go wild with. Not as storyline. This is not true, as officially the story advances. But I don't give a gak and pretend it is not. And we keep making our slowed stories in said sandbox and have tons of fun doing so.

Secondly, why be in the hobby, I mean waraming at large? There are so many reasons. I like tinkering to get terrain. I like painting. I like having that excuse to gather with friends and have a beer, a laugh, around thronwing dices and imagining stories of our own. Making up rules. Delving into historical concerns in historical wargames... And many more.

I can't tell you how to not hate the lore besides this, making your head canon.

If you can't because you value officially licensed things, get another game, setting, or hobby you enjoy. We can all agree day to day life has got enough things to ruin your day already, don't let your relief/fun ruin it as well!

I think if you've reached the point of actual hate and not just strong dislike, then you should move on to another hobby.

Chances are you just aren't the target audience anymore and that realisation hasn't sat well with you.

Your right. The recent lore has been more bad than good. Especially primaris wich is basically embarising bad.

Come on you mean to tell me the imperium of man would allow a tech heritic like cawl to get away with making thousands of new big space marines? What was the assassinorum doing alowing somthing like this? Somthing like this would be impossible to get away with it's just bad writing. Also the imperium wouldn't even allow primaris.

They would kill them all it's a religous state. You can't improve on the work of God in a religous state. The inquisition would have found out and killed them. The high lords would have at least made a solid attempt at killing guilliman.

This is supposed to be a dark gritty setting and it's not even as dark as modern life anymore. Embarrassing really.

Now having said that their are still some interesting lore bits around. Belisarius cawl is a cool in the book. The great works, just fun to read about. I liked the lords of silence (a death guard book.

The setting no longer makes sense in an in univers way. Judging by what you have said I would step away for 5-10years. If your still alive and have any intrest by then check back in.

How do you stop hating the lore?

Real easy

Does the lore really even matter? With the recent dip in lore quality and the more recent lore additions, I'm honestly left asking what's the point anymore? It's like the deeper I dive into the novels, games, pre-history of 40k, and sourcebooks that my appreciation for the setting drops. I know that this is primarily a setting designed around selling miniatures and at the end of the day, that's GW's top priority. However, that just led me to question as to why so many people are even invested in such an expensive hobby or more so what's the point?

Everything prior to the gathering storm is the lore, everything afterword is fanfic by people who do not understand the universe. they inherited it but do not understand the setting and just listen to the marketing department. It is why our group have gone back to playing hybrid 5th edition with a heavy dose of 3rd and 4th edition codexes written by the people who created the setting. they pretty much all left (Andy is free lance, Phil runs warlord games etc..)

there are only 3 or 4 5th ed codexes we like and only 2 or 3 in 7th because the factions didn't exist prior to that. but hey they are all cross compatible with 5th. most players go back to 3rd and 4th ed to get the full immersion into the setting. no chaos player worth his spikes will touch anything other than the 3.5 chaos codex outside of importing a few things into it from say the 4th ed demon codex. same with black templar. there is only the 4th ed codex.

I honestly do not give a feth anymore about what GW does with the game. i have more than enough minis to play oldhammer and GW will never mess with it again.

Gw lore is a mixed bag. Some is good, some is stupid. I advice to not take it too seriously. I lean more on head canon and my own imagination to fill in gaps, and I disregard parts that lessens the setting.

Like for example a marine chapter being a 1000 dudes, yeah, it does not matter how awesome they are, they wont be relevant in the galactic scheme, or they wont be practical in games. Maybe 1 000 000 dudes per chapter makes more sense in a galactic conflict, and at least a couple of chapters per system.

 Gitdakka wrote:

Like for example a marine chapter being a 1000 dudes, yeah, it does not matter how awesome they are, they wont be relevant in the galactic scheme

Thats the point. Although it is also a major contention I have with how 40k lore is written currently because Space Marines were never intended to be Astartes: Galaxy Police. They're SUPPOSED to be semi-mythical figures viewed as LITERAL angels of the Emperor by a huge, huge majority of the Imperium. They operate in small squads and make surgical strikes in most conflicts. If they need to deploy as an entire army then the threat is star system threateningly serious and they'll probably cause just as much damage as the threat to the locals but as long as the threat is dead they don't care about things like infrastructure or homes. But the way GW writes it's lore they're like bouncers at a night club and will show up for a punch up in a supermarket car park. Basically the lore should be that every conflict in the Imperium is pretty much resolved by the Guard like 99% of the time and Space Marines will only turn up is things are going VERY badly. How it's ACTUALLY written is that Space Marines seem to be on their way to every minor scuffle before it's even started, save the day from the inept and pointless Guard and jet off into the sunset and everyone lives happily ever after.

 Adeptekon wrote:
The make it your own aspect is what keeps me attracted.

I'm puzzled that you says it keeps you attracted, given that GW has basically removed the whole 'your dudes' aspect entirely, such that there's no real difference between special characters (who can't be customised because they represent particular individuals) and generic characters (who also can' be customised because GW can't be arsed giving them options anymore).

 vipoid wrote:
I'm puzzled that you says it keeps you attracted, given that GW has basically removed the whole 'your dudes' aspect entirely, such that there's no real difference between special characters (who can't be customised because they represent particular individuals) and generic characters (who also can' be customised because GW can't be arsed giving them options anymore).

Special characters are just stats, you can call them whatever you like.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Gitdakka wrote:

Like for example a marine chapter being a 1000 dudes, yeah, it does not matter how awesome they are, they wont be relevant in the galactic scheme

Thats the point. Although it is also a major contention I have with how 40k lore is written currently because Space Marines were never intended to be Astartes: Galaxy Police. They're SUPPOSED to be semi-mythical figures viewed as LITERAL angels of the Emperor by a huge, huge majority of the Imperium. They operate in small squads and make surgical strikes in most conflicts. If they need to deploy as an entire army then the threat is star system threateningly serious and they'll probably cause just as much damage as the threat to the locals but as long as the threat is dead they don't care about things like infrastructure or homes. But the way GW writes it's lore they're like bouncers at a night club and will show up for a punch up in a supermarket car park. Basically the lore should be that every conflict in the Imperium is pretty much resolved by the Guard like 99% of the time and Space Marines will only turn up is things are going VERY badly. How it's ACTUALLY written is that Space Marines seem to be on their way to every minor scuffle before it's even started, save the day from the inept and pointless Guard and jet off into the sunset and everyone lives happily ever after.

This is definitely missing from a lot of modern 40k lore. Such things, were far more prevalent in Imperial Armour with conflicts like the Orphean War, Taros Campaign, and Siege of Vraks. Most of these conflicts were being fought by the Imperial Guard with Space Marine chapters usually showing up in the latter stages of the conflict. Unless, were talking about Badab War, but that was a Space Marines royal rumble. The first Space Marine game also shows this excellently with Captain Titus' chapter
coming in to reinforce the Cadians whom have been fighting on the surface longer than the marines have and then later the Blood Ravens join in on the fun as the Chaos Marines finally start popping up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
@OP: Regarding your problems with 8th Legion lore: Which books on the 8th Legion have you seen reading? And by which particular author?

I know this might piss you off and probably any other fellow brothers of the Legion around, but please don't flay me just yet. Hear me out. Aaron-Dembski Bowden. I think he's a great dude, but after reading some of his stuff in the Heresy era I have grown to dislike his writing. I've read all of the Night Lords Trilogy (ADB at his best), Savage Weapons (I hate this one for how pointless it is), Prince of Crows (I hate this one, it's pure edge), The Abyssal Edge (I liked it for background's sake), The Long Night (I AM JUDGEMENT! TIER). I also really, really dislike the Primarch Novel for one reason: Curze killing the suicidal girl. I'm extremely mentally ill myself and it kind of came off as the author trying to make Curze as evil as possible. I adore their Horus Heresy Black Book though.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Adeptekon wrote:The make it your own aspect is what keeps me attracted.

I think I appreciate the lore from more of a bird's eye view. I'm mostly distracted by the writing styles of the authors and their microscopes which I just can't get over. Though I've only a sampling under my belt compared so be your own judge.

The good thing about the lore is you can pretty much pick what interests you and ignore the rest.

AnomanderRake wrote:Like any fan of any long-running media (Star Wars, Star Trek, comics...) you complain loudly about how it was better back when you liked it and disregard anything that came later.

I think these quotes address it pretty well. 40k is inspired by a ton of different things and strikes a bunch of different tones at different times. The lore has so many little nooks and crannies on top of the main elements that you'll probably find something you dislike eventually.

The trick, I think, is to accept that not every single piece of the lore is going to be your cup of tea and just give your permission to have fun with the parts you do like.

Batman has been around a long time. A lot of people like goofy Adam West Batman. A lot of people like hyper-edgy Frank Miller Batman. Some people like might both, but the existence of Frank Miller Batman doesn't have to ruin all of Batman for the Adam West fans and vice versa.

It also helps, I think, to not get caught up in the setting/factions on a macro level. Give yourself permission to zoom in on the little corner of the galaxy you like even if you have to make that corner up yourself. If you liked the Night Lords until you read a novel with some angsty edge lords that drove you nuts, make up your own warband whose personalities are more to your taste. Don't like loyalist marines being wrapped in plot armor? Play a dying chapter that seems to be more grounded and bereft of the plot armor found in other corners of the galaxy. Don't like tau slowly sliding into a repeat of the imperium's fate? Focus on the exploits of a chunk of the empire that's trying avoid doing just that, and let your games on the tabletop be an attempt to keep that effort alive.

Abanshee wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^The Genestealer and xenomorph are absolutely related, sure. The greater Tyranid superorganism though, seemingly much less so.

Edit: The whole genestealer life cycle thing is, imo, waaaay creepier and more subversive.

Eh, different strokes for different folks. I find xenomorphs scarier because they play off more primal fears: a lifeform far more intelligent than you, fear or violation, the dark, and the unknown.


I can't take Genestealer Cults seriously when I see they're heads. I'm like, "did that insane priest just glue a purple sea shell to his forehead? OH gak HE'S GOT AN AUTOGUN!". I am glad that Tyranids are getting a model update though, they needed it badly. Termagants actually look terrifying now.

I get the Star Trek foreheads not working for you. Personally, I have to dig up all the illustrations with bizarre-looking 40k humans to suspend my disbelief and accept that these guys were able to "blend in" with the larger populace. But you have to admit that all those elements you say you like are present:

Smarter than you = weird alien cunning/unnerving and genuinely alien intellect of the patriarch.
Fear of violation = the genestealer's kiss; reasonably comparable to face huggers.
The dark = ... the dark. I mean, genestealers are sneaky. They crawl around in air vents and pop out of shadows. This is absolutely as true for genestealers as it is for xenomorphs.
The unknown = see above about the patriarch. Like, in addition to (eventually) being linked to the hive mind's weirdness, this guy sits on a pile of organic... stuff that is essentially magical (see the GSC relics) and can straight up manifest psychic familiars into existence.

Plus, you have that whole... creepy small town cult that will sacrifice you to the corn god vibes mixed with some Innsmouth fish-man energy.

Oh, theres nothing wrong with the Cults per say. It's just there a bit less sexually disgusting than the xenomorphs are and also less animalistic in nature. Xenomorphs are also much smarter (Hudson is actually a pretty clever character in the series for coming up with how they exactly operate when he's theorizing what the hive is like. Also, his line about them cutting the power is pure nightmare fuel because it implies they know far more than they appear to about basically everything).

Also, they are literal soulless legions of children born from forced insemination that only have one goal: to spread as much of their ilk as possible. However, yeah they share a gak ton of similiarities, I wont lie. Cults are the psychic Innsmouth cult that usurp entire worlds for their "star gods" and the Xenomorphs are hyper-intelligent parasitic organisms that are born through rape. The whole concept of a xenomorph is just a little more revolting due to their negative sexual elements to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Abanshee wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^The Genestealer and xenomorph are absolutely related, sure. The greater Tyranid superorganism though, seemingly much less so.

Edit: The whole genestealer life cycle thing is, imo, waaaay creepier and more subversive.

Eh, different strokes for different folks. I find xenomorphs scarier because they play off more primal fears: a lifeform far more intelligent than you, fear or violation, the dark, and the unknown.


I can't take Genestealer Cults seriously when I see they're heads. I'm like, "did that insane priest just glue a purple sea shell to his forehead? OH gak HE'S GOT AN AUTOGUN!". I am glad that Tyranids are getting a model update though, they needed it badly. Termagants actually look terrifying now.

Oh don't get me wrong. I love the xenomorph. I bought the HR Giger Alien design book back in high school in the early 90's. I could have recited Aliens to you. I had the sourcebook to the RPG, a smattering of comics, plus a number of the Halcyon model kits. Oh, and a couple miniatures too. I still have some of the eggs in lead, I think.

Tyranids for me have grown into a very separate thing, and feel very different even though they have similar roots. The integrated bio-weapons, the explicit hive mind, the creation of new species by intent, the star spanning galactic threat and the one-organism-with-many-forms thing.

Maybe the comics align the two more together, I wouldn't be surprised if there were cross pollination there. I'm might be more of a purist there though, I'm more inclined to go with the movies as the primary sources of canon.

Edit: Also Tyranids get a big pass from me just because they're both not humanoid and on a different biometric scale. Every faction being both humanoid and similarly sized is honestly pretty dumb from a science fiction perspective. OG Tyranid Warriors absolutely towered over everybody else, which was refreshing.

They overlap a little now (I believe I read somewhere that Queens have like crazy high IQ scores), but yeah I agree they're two separate things at this point.

I do agree though that Tyranids are like the only non-humanoid faction thus it makes them much more aesthetically unique to all the others.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

 Adeptekon wrote:
The make it your own aspect is what keeps me attracted.

I'm puzzled that you says it keeps you attracted, given that GW has basically removed the whole 'your dudes' aspect entirely, such that there's no real difference between special characters (who can't be customised because they represent particular individuals) and generic characters (who also can' be customised because GW can't be arsed giving them options anymore).

This killed a lot of the hobbying aspect for me, but a lot of armies still have variety in their kits. So, I guess it's not utterly unbearable, but it's annoying having to get multiple kits/bits for conversions/customization's sake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Trickstick wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I'm puzzled that you says it keeps you attracted, given that GW has basically removed the whole 'your dudes' aspect entirely, such that there's no real difference between special characters (who can't be customised because they represent particular individuals) and generic characters (who also can' be customised because GW can't be arsed giving them options anymore).

Special characters are just stats, you can call them whatever you like.

What I think he's trying to articulate is that their isn't much option to customize your units or characters like there was with older kits in previous editions. You have a lot of mono-pose models now and your options are very limited, as to what sort of sub-factions that you can portray on the tabletop.

 Abanshee wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Adeptekon wrote:The make it your own aspect is what keeps me attracted.

I think I appreciate the lore from more of a bird's eye view. I'm mostly distracted by the writing styles of the authors and their microscopes which I just can't get over. Though I've only a sampling under my belt compared so be your own judge.

The good thing about the lore is you can pretty much pick what interests you and ignore the rest.

AnomanderRake wrote:Like any fan of any long-running media (Star Wars, Star Trek, comics...) you complain loudly about how it was better back when you liked it and disregard anything that came later.

I think these quotes address it pretty well. 40k is inspired by a ton of different things and strikes a bunch of different tones at different times. The lore has so many little nooks and crannies on top of the main elements that you'll probably find something you dislike eventually.

The trick, I think, is to accept that not every single piece of the lore is going to be your cup of tea and just give your permission to have fun with the parts you do like.

Batman has been around a long time. A lot of people like goofy Adam West Batman. A lot of people like hyper-edgy Frank Miller Batman. Some people like might both, but the existence of Frank Miller Batman doesn't have to ruin all of Batman for the Adam West fans and vice versa.

It also helps, I think, to not get caught up in the setting/factions on a macro level. Give yourself permission to zoom in on the little corner of the galaxy you like even if you have to make that corner up yourself. If you liked the Night Lords until you read a novel with some angsty edge lords that drove you nuts, make up your own warband whose personalities are more to your taste. Don't like loyalist marines being wrapped in plot armor? Play a dying chapter that seems to be more grounded and bereft of the plot armor found in other corners of the galaxy. Don't like tau slowly sliding into a repeat of the imperium's fate? Focus on the exploits of a chunk of the empire that's trying avoid doing just that, and let your games on the tabletop be an attempt to keep that effort alive.

Abanshee wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^The Genestealer and xenomorph are absolutely related, sure. The greater Tyranid superorganism though, seemingly much less so.

Edit: The whole genestealer life cycle thing is, imo, waaaay creepier and more subversive.

Eh, different strokes for different folks. I find xenomorphs scarier because they play off more primal fears: a lifeform far more intelligent than you, fear or violation, the dark, and the unknown.


I can't take Genestealer Cults seriously when I see they're heads. I'm like, "did that insane priest just glue a purple sea shell to his forehead? OH gak HE'S GOT AN AUTOGUN!". I am glad that Tyranids are getting a model update though, they needed it badly. Termagants actually look terrifying now.

I get the Star Trek foreheads not working for you. Personally, I have to dig up all the illustrations with bizarre-looking 40k humans to suspend my disbelief and accept that these guys were able to "blend in" with the larger populace. But you have to admit that all those elements you say you like are present:

Smarter than you = weird alien cunning/unnerving and genuinely alien intellect of the patriarch.
Fear of violation = the genestealer's kiss; reasonably comparable to face huggers.
The dark = ... the dark. I mean, genestealers are sneaky. They crawl around in air vents and pop out of shadows. This is absolutely as true for genestealers as it is for xenomorphs.
The unknown = see above about the patriarch. Like, in addition to (eventually) being linked to the hive mind's weirdness, this guy sits on a pile of organic... stuff that is essentially magical (see the GSC relics) and can straight up manifest psychic familiars into existence.

Plus, you have that whole... creepy small town cult that will sacrifice you to the corn god vibes mixed with some Innsmouth fish-man energy.

Oh, theres nothing wrong with the Cults per say. It's just there a bit less sexually disgusting than the xenomorphs are and also less animalistic in nature. Xenomorphs are also much smarter (Hudson is actually a pretty clever character in the series for coming up with how they exactly operate when he's theorizing what the hive is like. Also, his line about them cutting the power is pure nightmare fuel because it implies they know far more than they appear to about basically everything).

Also, they are literal soulless legions of children born from forced insemination that only have one goal: to spread as much of their ilk as possible. However, yeah they share a gak ton of similiarities, I wont lie. Cults are the psychic Innsmouth cult that usurp entire worlds for their "star gods" and the Xenomorphs are hyper-intelligent parasitic organisms that are born through rape. The whole concept of a xenomorph is just a little more revolting due to their negative sexual elements to me.

I'd argue genestealer cults are smarter considering that they form organised groups within human society from the very bottom all the way to the top. They basically infiltrate a world and keep expanding and taking over as much as they can with the intention that they will eventually rise up to control the whole world, system and as much as they can spread too before they are either destroyed or consumed. They can operate machines, build machines, hatch plots, rule vast swathes of territory. Genstealer Cults are very smart and would out-smart a Xenomorph force.

In general Xenos are pretty smart predators and do work things out; but they don't tend to be seen operating machinery outside of very basic concepts. They are also often seen as "OMG this thing is smart" more in the way raptors were in Jurassic Park. It's an "animal/beast" that humans greatly underestimate because its not human. So when it does basic predatory hunting or such they are shocked. It's part of the mythos that can lose some luster when you step back and realise that people really shouldn't be shocked that an alien from space that lived on a starship can avoid fire; hunt; predate on people and not just kill itself mindlessly (and yet that's just what they almost did against the auto-cannon in Alien 2).

Maybe don't read the lore with an eye to hate it.