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After reading a lot of posts how deathly the eldar are, i have to say marines and there oath are even worse.
We played with a lot of terrein so plenty of cover and places to hide.
And the marine player deleted one unit a time with his oath and did damge to the rest of my army.
Reroll all hits and all wounds for the hole army at the chosen target is to strong.
and every turn he can put it on a unit that is a danger for his force and kills it.
Last night i played WE agains dark angels.

my list His list

2x10man beserker unit 2x full squad intersessors 2x grenadelauncher
1x10man jachals 1x 5 reivers
1x5 terminators 1x 3 inceptor with assault bolters
1x Kharn 1x 3 centurion devestators(lascannon and missles)
1x master of exicutions 1x primaris dreathnouth (plasmablaster )
1 landraider 1x primaris dreathnouth (twin lascannon, misslelauncher.
1x librarian(gave a unit 4+ inv save)

in the end i did win the game, but only had 1 terminator, 2 jackhals, 4 beserkers and the master of executions left.
the unit beserkers and the two jachals only survived becaus i hide them on a objective so scoring some points every round.

he had left 2 dreathnoughts, and his centurion devestators.

i scored the full points from the last turn because he diddnt have the movement to shoot on my hidden units.

so you won, but the other side needs a nerf... ?

What nekooni said. Also marines are at best mid and often lower mid tier armies. When eldar are sitting 76% win rates. If you think that oath of the moment are anything near the rule set the really good armies have, they I must sadly say you do not know what you are talking about.

OoM is great but overrated (often people act like everything everywhere is OoM:ed at every time) - and vs. certain lists it falls off hard.

My main gripe personally with OoM is how unimaginitive it is.

And as others have mentioned, marines aren't exactly winning any tournaments (despite OoM) and so there's that - but you complaining about OoM when you at the same time state that you won against it doesn't really strengthen your argument.

OoM is defeated by not having one critical unit in your army but several, they can focus on one and once they have dropped OoM it seems will focus until that unit is dead

potential for baiting enemy actions with distraction carnifex tactics maybe?

where OoM is bad however is in smaller games, the cut down version in Combat Patrol is horrible when you only have three or so units anyway and your opponent likely only has the firepower to kill one anyway

as games get larger its value drops off considerably, also "reroll to hit" sounds powerful, but when you hit on a 3+ generally its not as bad as it sounds. re-rolling wounds is well worth it though

Played a game with my marines the other day and we had a lot of line of sight blocking terrain as well and oat of moment wasn’t that powerful, because only a few units could ever see the unit I wanted to target with it. Where as the eldar rules seems pretty powerful what ever you do, there is no counter to it.


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leopard wrote:
OoM is defeated by not having one critical unit in your army but several, they can focus on one and once they have dropped OoM it seems will focus until that unit is dead

potential for baiting enemy actions with distraction carnifex tactics maybe?

where OoM is bad however is in smaller games, the cut down version in Combat Patrol is horrible when you only have three or so units anyway and your opponent likely only has the firepower to kill one anyway

as games get larger its value drops off considerably, also "reroll to hit" sounds powerful, but when you hit on a 3+ generally its not as bad as it sounds. re-rolling wounds is well worth it though

Hadn’t thought about how it would be in small games until you pointed it out now, makes sense it would be pretty rough in a combat patrol game. Not sure I would use it in that size battle.

having faced in in combat patrol even with my force starting largely in cover I still lost half the force to OoM combined with "sustained hits" because they only really needed to kill one unit a turn

I like the idea of combat patrol, the execution sucks

OoM I suspect in a 2k game only works if your opponent lets it work, 2nd game I played the Blood Angels opposite noted they had no critical target

Combat patrol lacks reroll wounds part

Also?

Just kind of accept that Oath of Moment means your Marine opponent is gonna hideously murder to death one of your units each turn.

Plan around it somewhat. Don’t put all your eggs in one basket. Look for two or more ways to bag decent VPs each turn, so the near inevitable annihilation of one of your units is mitigated. No not all the plans will yield the same number of VPs, but by keeping your options open, you reduce the impact all the same. Plus there’s a chance your opponent might be too busy second guessing what the best application is to spot the actual best application.

tneva82 wrote:
Combat patrol lacks reroll wounds part

yes I know, its still ridiculous in a game that small

worth noting, for the record, that a lot of other faction abilities are also ridiculous in small games

nekooni wrote:
so you won, but the other side needs a nerf... ?

Just because you won against something doesn't mean you think it's fine as is.

ccs wrote:

nekooni wrote:
so you won, but the other side needs a nerf... ?

Just because you won against something doesn't mean you think it's fine as is.

He can think what he wants, but he is wrong. Comparing eldar to marines, is like comparing any mid tier army to the bottom 3 and say that they are practicaly the same.
The post smells of space marine hate and all it takes to check how important OotM is for marines is to play a game with A without it. B without 2-3 squads of desolation marines. Army instantly goes from mid/low mid tier to bad.

Karol wrote:

ccs wrote:

nekooni wrote:
so you won, but the other side needs a nerf... ?

Just because you won against something doesn't mean you think it's fine as is.

He can think what he wants, but he is wrong. Comparing eldar to marines, is like comparing any mid tier army to the bottom 3 and say that they are practicaly the same.
The post smells of space marine hate and all it takes to check how important OotM is for marines is to play a game with A without it. B without 2-3 squads of desolation marines. Army instantly goes from mid/low mid tier to bad.

It's possible for something to perform poorly and still be poorly designed.

Ïf you looked at the bottom of my post you will see that i am a marine player (bloodangels) so there is no hatred. But its how easy it is for a marine player to delete units that are dangerous.
In the battle the landraider could hurt his dreathnought ,so i was the first to die, the rest of the battle i did try to hide my units as good as i could. But its not funny if you see your army deleted and have nothing to prevent it. and small units isnt a option to because you then dont have the power to kill his units.

remember that even intercessors with boltguns do trow out 20 S4 ap -1 1 damage
and 2 S9 ap -2 damage d3 All hitting on 2+ and rerolling to hit and wound. even terminators and vehicles will die or get a lot of wounds.

Sorry but with marines having sub-50 wr and you winning doesn't exactly support your claim it's busted

Btw did you know 2x5 has just as damage output generally as 1x10 but ruins oath efficiency a lot?

 skeleton wrote:

remember that even intercessors with boltguns do trow out 20 S4 ap -1 1 damage
and 2 S9 ap -2 damage d3 All hitting on 2+ and rerolling to hit and wound. even terminators and vehicles will die or get a lot of wounds.

And 10 Heavy Intercessors will throw out 20 S5 AP1, or 16 S5 AP1, 6 S5 AP1 D2.
(Why are they hitting on 2+?)
I genuinely don't get your point.

OoM is great against big expensive units/models, as well as in smaller battles (but the game is designed for 2000 pts).
It's pretty meh against lists that doesn't contain big scary expensive units (like GSC) or lists that can protect or hide their big scary units once targeted by OoM (like Eldar).

By all means, point out the flaws of how the rule is designed (I too think it's pretty badly designed, but for different reasons), but do you have a suggestion on how to fix it or what to replace it with?

wonder if it could be improved by limiting it to units within "x" of the target, or within "x" of the target and within "y" of some character who is coordinating it

needs a way to scale with game size as well given the game is not just played at 2k

and this also applies to other faction abilities, stuff needs to scale way better

 MinscS2 wrote:
OoM is great but overrated (often people act like everything everywhere is OoM:ed at every time) - and vs. certain lists it falls off hard.

My main gripe personally with OoM is how unimaginitive it is.

And as others have mentioned, marines aren't exactly winning any tournaments (despite OoM) and so there's that - but you complaining about OoM when you at the same time state that you won against it doesn't really strengthen your argument.

I haven't gotten around to playing my marines yet this edition, but this is one of the main things that jumped out at me. OoM is right up there with Strands of Fate and eldar detachment rerolls for being both boring and a concerningly direct lethality boost. I'm hoping that all these mechanics get a second look before the 'dexes drop.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Plan around it somewhat. Don’t put all your eggs in one basket.

That sounds nice in theory but in practice not every army can do that. "Play around it" means don't play knights, don't bring a Baneblade in your guard army, etc. Whole categories of units and army concepts get thrown in the trash when OoM is around.


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 MinscS2 wrote:
By all means, point out the flaws of how the rule is designed (I too think it's pretty badly designed, but for different reasons), but do you have a suggestion on how to fix it or what to replace it with?

Delete it and replace it with doctrines as the faction rule.


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tneva82 wrote:
Sorry but with marines having sub-50 wr and you winning doesn't exactly support your claim it's busted

And being less horrifically broken than Eldar doesn't mean it isn't busted.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Plan around it somewhat. Don’t put all your eggs in one basket.

That sounds nice in theory but in practice not every army can do that. "Play around it" means don't play knights, don't bring a Baneblade in your guard army, etc. Whole categories of units and army concepts get thrown in the trash when OoM is around..

Nobodies scrapping army concepts, not playing Knights, etc just because SMs (once again/still) get a crap ton of re-rolls.

ccs wrote:
Nobodies scrapping army concepts, not playing Knights, etc just because SMs (once again/still) get a crap ton of re-rolls.

You realize that was a reply to someone literally saying "just don't take things that are vulnerable to OoM", right?

You can propose a nerf to an unfun ability within an overall weak faction, I'm sure there are tonnes of terrible SM datasheets, you could start with buffing those, but since neither I nor OP are SM fans we wouldn't be able to propose exactly which buffs would be needed to make Space Marines internally and externally balanced after nerfing Oaths. My problem with Oaths is that it is counter to the mission statement of 10th with reducing re-rolls which I think is a really cool goal. +1 to hit (and +1 to wound in games other than Combat Patrol) would be my solution. Knights have rotate ion shields I heard, so it's not like they don't have an answer to one Knight getting all the focus, I thought Knights were very strong, but is that still one of the easier Space Marines matchups then?

Try a game without oath.
Save for a few units, (mostly ones like the gladius lancer that bring their own rerolls,) marine damage becomes throwing pillows at the enemy without it.

I personally like the design ethos of “this army specializes in taking out key targets,” even if you might disagree with full rerolls being the way to accomplish that.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

ccs wrote:
Nobodies scrapping army concepts, not playing Knights, etc just because SMs (once again/still) get a crap ton of re-rolls.

You realize that was a reply to someone literally saying "just don't take things that are vulnerable to OoM", right?

That's not what doc said though. You can both plan and play around OoM. A baneblade can easily sit back out of range of many marine guns or use armored might to withstand a great number of them, in addition you can have more tanks than a baneblade which will be quite annoying to handle without oath. If your army folds because a single unit is destroyed per turn, you just didn't build a good army.

Sure, whatever unit gets Oath of Moment dies. But that's not just because they just point at a unit and it implodes without rolling any dice. Any halfway decent marine player evaluates which unit they can kill before deciding what to dOoM, evaluating how many of their relevant units have LoS and range to the target. Slightly better players even evaluate whether this would expose their units to dangerous shooting themselves.

So build redundancy in your lists (you always should), don't put all your eggs in one basket (unless your eggs reanimate), don't put your valuable units where a significant chunk of the enemy army can shoot them (you never should) and make sure your other units are in a position to punish those units which have exposed themselves (you always should).
Depending on your army, you can even take control of the game and force your opponents to pick the target you want by providing an obvious choice (aka distraction carnifex), allowing you to score/murder stuff unhindered elsewhere.

In other words, OoM severely punishes mistakes you should not be making in any game, irrespective of which army you are facing. However, this also makes it feel very unfair for "shark in a fishtank"-type of players, who suddenly find a game rule closing the skill gap between them and weaker players.

Personally, I really like that marines finally have a skill based army rule instead of just "better than you +1", it makes the army more interesting to face despite their individual units being fairly bland.
The cynic in me also says that Oath of Doom&Fortune simply fits naturally with primaris aspect warriors

There are a lot of faction rules in 10th that feel really bad to play against but aren't really overpowered. Having a unit suddenly feel defenseless with no ability to dictate is definitely one of them, but after suffering it you often find yoursel still winning because everything else survives.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

ccs wrote:
Nobodies scrapping army concepts, not playing Knights, etc just because SMs (once again/still) get a crap ton of re-rolls.

You realize that was a reply to someone literally saying "just don't take things that are vulnerable to OoM", right?

Which is quite the paraphrasing of what I said. And not at all accurate.

There’s no point moaning about Oath of Moment. It exists. And it’s almost certainly not going anywhere in a particular hurry

If your complaint is that it offers a solid counter to otherwise pretty powerful units? That’s just the nature of the game. Nothing is completely invulnerable, many things have some form of natural counter. So to choose not to field something because your opponent may well have a decent counter to it seems incredibly self limiting.

nekooni wrote:
so you won, but the other side needs a nerf... ?

First thing I thought of.


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leopard wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Combat patrol lacks reroll wounds part

yes I know, its still ridiculous in a game that small

worth noting, for the record, that a lot of other faction abilities are also ridiculous in small games

GW does have a history of not really balancing all levels of play, and/or all factions in all levels of play.


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 vict0988 wrote:
You can propose a nerf to an unfun ability within an overall weak faction

Well, you can but people will laugh at you. Nerfing an overall weak faction doesn't fix anything. You can propose changing an "unfun ability" within an overall weak faction. But you can't propose nerfing an ability in an overall weak faction because the ability is too strong yet the faction is overall weak without being ridiculed.


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 Jidmah wrote:

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

ccs wrote:
Nobodies scrapping army concepts, not playing Knights, etc just because SMs (once again/still) get a crap ton of re-rolls.

You realize that was a reply to someone literally saying "just don't take things that are vulnerable to OoM", right?

That's not what doc said though. You can both plan and play around OoM. A baneblade can easily sit back out of range of many marine guns or use armored might to withstand a great number of them, in addition you can have more tanks than a baneblade which will be quite annoying to handle without oath. If your army folds because a single unit is destroyed per turn, you just didn't build a good army.

Or you didn't play it right, or both.

Sure, whatever unit gets Oath of Moment dies. But that's not just because they just point at a unit and it implodes without rolling any dice. Any halfway decent marine player evaluates which unit they can kill before deciding what to dOoM, evaluating how many of their relevant units have LoS and range to the target. Slightly better players even evaluate whether this would expose their units to dangerous shooting themselves.

So build redundancy in your lists (you always should), don't put all your eggs in one basket (unless your eggs reanimate), don't put your valuable units where a significant chunk of the enemy army can shoot them (you never should) and make sure your other units are in a position to punish those units which have exposed themselves (you always should).
Depending on your army, you can even take control of the game and force your opponents to pick the target you want by providing an obvious choice (aka distraction carnifex), allowing you to score/murder stuff unhindered elsewhere.

In other words, OoM severely punishes mistakes you should not be making in any game, irrespective of which army you are facing. However, this also makes it feel very unfair for "shark in a fishtank"-type of players, who suddenly find a game rule closing the skill gap between them and weaker players.

Personally, I really like that marines finally have a skill based army rule instead of just "better than you +1", it makes the army more interesting to face despite their individual units being fairly bland.
The cynic in me also says that Oath of Doom&Fortune simply fits naturally with primaris aspect warriors

What I like is that this edition plays into my usual build pattern - I like to take kitchen sink lists, let my opponent tell me which of my units s/he dislikes most and how much then use them as bait and/or obstacles to enable the rest of my army. The multiple small 1-2 unit combos being setup here really leans into that.

Breton wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
You can propose a nerf to an unfun ability within an overall weak faction

...Nerfing an overall weak faction doesn't fix anything...

It fixes the unfun rule. Not everything in the game is about factions having a 50% win rate, Eldar Guardians should not be T6 and anyone sane would suggest returning them to T3 regardless of how well Eldar were doing at the time, having a faction "work" because it has some stupid unfluffy rule is not a good state of affairs. Nobody knows what comes of changing rules, that has to be tested and balanced with points afterwards. Would you want GW to first give major buffs to Space Marines so they get to a 60% win rate for 3 months before changing the rule to move them back down to 50% or would it maybe make just a smidgen more sense to change both the rule and the points at the same time?

 vict0988 wrote:

Breton wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
You can propose a nerf to an unfun ability within an overall weak faction

...Nerfing an overall weak faction doesn't fix anything...

It fixes the unfun rule. Not everything in the game is about factions having a 50% win rate, Eldar Guardians should not be T6 and anyone sane would suggest returning them to T3 regardless of how well Eldar were doing at the time, having a faction "work" because it has some stupid unfluffy rule is not a good state of affairs. Nobody knows what comes of changing rules, that has to be tested and balanced with points afterwards. Would you want GW to first give major buffs to Space Marines so they get to a 60% win rate for 3 months before changing the rule to move them back down to 50% or would it maybe make just a smidgen more sense to change both the rule and the points at the same time?

Honest question:
What's so unfun about Oath of Moment? What makes it different from stuff like doom or hex?

"what makes it unfun?" (paraphrased)

Well "Doom" requires a character to pull off, though I'd say a +1 to wound is more useful than a re-roll to wound, its also limited range, and has a chance to fail

not come across Hex but I'm guessing its similar in that it has a character triggering it (open to information on what this does though)

where as OoM "just is", there is no restriction applied to it other than can only be one target per turn (which can at least be worked with), even the smallest marine force can use it (Combat Patrol is cut down though), there is no visibility requirement, range requirement, character requirement

OoM is what I term a "passenger" ability, as in your opponent is a pure passenger who can do nothing about it, they get it every turn, regardless of how their army is currently configured, it cannot be taken from them, it cannot really be avoided

abilities need to be more interactive, either with the faction they are from (requiring certain characters or positioning for example), or with the enemy (as in having a way to deny it)

as it stands OoM is point & click death