Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

for keeping alive, wounds IMO

 MinscS2 wrote:

Breton wrote:
Rate of Fire.
Aggressors with 6 and layering in Lethal/Sustained Hits. Quantity has a qualtiy all its own - especially when you're constrained by a D6 Random Number Generator.

To be fair, massed S4 might be quantity, but when you add in stuff like Sustained, Lethal and AP1-2... when does it stop being quantity and start being quality... in high quanity?

If there wasn't quantity they wouldn't be piling on the addons. Did some math on the Space Marine "Rotary Cannon" options - Assault Cannons, Onlsaughts etc. They did more damage with their shots than they did with their 16% Mortals.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well…it can.

It literally cannot prevent damage. You could be T1m, and a S1 weapon still wounds you on a 6.

This is why it's not as important as Damage.

Ok so armour save doesnt prevent damage because 1 fails. So we now know nothing prevents damage so your 100 dam2 shots automatically cause 200 damage...ummm...what?

How is t not preventrng damage when you roll 4 with s4 gun vs t5? You bad in math or what?

tneva82 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well…it can.

It literally cannot prevent damage. You could be T1m, and a S1 weapon still wounds you on a 6.

This is why it's not as important as Damage.

Ok so armour save doesnt prevent damage because 1 fails. So we now know nothing prevents damage so your 100 dam2 shots automatically cause 200 damage...ummm...what?

How is t not preventrng damage when you roll 4 with s4 gun vs t5? You bad in math or what?

T reduces the chance of taking damage, it doesn't prevent it as such. There is no point where T means you cannot take damage.

Which is rather irrelevant since none of the stats prevent you from taking damage. Toughness, Armor, Invulnerable, and Feel No Pain all can reduce the chance you take damage, but none prevent all the damage.

Toughness does act as a gatekeeper to damage. You never fail a Save or FNP you never have to roll because your Toughness made the Wound Roll a failure.

Well there are units in the game that can turn the damage stat to 0. Not that it makes them somehow exeptionaly good. But they do exist.

If you want to win a game, I'd argue that Objective Control is pretty important.

 alextroy wrote:
Toughness does act as a gatekeeper to damage. You never fail a Save or FNP you never have to roll because your Toughness made the Wound Roll a failure.

Technically true, but not very informative. The order is arbitrary, you can roll them in any order with mathematically identical results. Toughness vs. Strength happening first doesn't make it any more or less valuable than the others.

@HBMC - i was wondering how you feel after your first game of 10th, any change of opinion?

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
@HBMC - i was wondering how you feel after your first game of 10th, any change of opinion?

You mean this first game of 10th?

Damage was still king. The ability to reduce damage played a major role in many parts of the game. How well I rolled on my Rupture Cannons was absolutely vital to the game.

On the flipside: Never had much of a problem wounding my targets.

tneva82 wrote:
You bad in math or what?

Didn't think this one through, did you tnevvy? Anyway, look at what Dudeface wrote. He understood what I wrote rather than just shooting off at the hip with another weirdly aggressive and confrontational post, which is what you did. What you always do.

Most important I'd say: Points (because SM Desolators need to be at least 50 points each for their damage output /endsmdesolatorrant).

Out of the choices given, def Toughness. Mad Doc said it best, "not being wounded in the first place..."

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
@HBMC - i was wondering how you feel after your first game of 10th, any change of opinion?

You mean this first game of 10th?

Damage was still king. The ability to reduce damage played a major role in many parts of the game. How well I rolled on my Rupture Cannons was absolutely vital to the game.

On the flipside: Never had much of a problem wounding my targets.

tyrannofex is gross... at strength 18 i would hope not wounding wasn't an issue!
link isn't working... should fix it for me, its a good read

 usernamesareannoying wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
@HBMC - i was wondering how you feel after your first game of 10th, any change of opinion?

You mean [url=https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/811209.page
]this first game of 10th[/url]?

Damage was still king. The ability to reduce damage played a major role in many parts of the game. How well I rolled on my Rupture Cannons was absolutely vital to the game.

On the flipside: Never had much of a problem wounding my targets.

tyrannofex is gross... at strength 18 i would hope not wounding wasn't an issue!
link isn't working... should fix it for me, its a good read

Yeah lol, complaining about S1 being able to wound T100000 then saying they didnt have problems wounding with a S18 gun feels borderline like taking the piss.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
link isn't working... should fix it for me, its a good read

Sorry, fixed it.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Yeah lol, complaining about S1 being able to wound T100000 then saying they didnt have problems wounding with a S18 gun feels borderline like taking the piss.

How? Nothing I said is contradictory.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
link isn't working... should fix it for me, its a good read

Sorry, fixed it.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Yeah lol, complaining about S1 being able to wound T100000 then saying they didnt have problems wounding with a S18 gun feels borderline like taking the piss.

How? Nothing I said is contradictory.

Did you bring Gaunts, and did their shooting/melee do significant damage to any armor?

Of course if your weapons are high S, they wound everything easily.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Did you bring Gaunts, and did their shooting/melee do significant damage to any armor?

Never in a position to shoot at armour. In fact, I think one of my Gaunt units fired all game. At some Terminators. Not sure what this has to do with anything though...

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Of course if your weapons are high S, they wound everything easily.

Ok... and?

I answered the OPs question with my thought that Damage is the most important stat, and that Toughness is not, because Toughness can't actually prevent you from being wounded as anything can wound anything on a 6, whereas causing lots of damage is very important.

So, again, what's the issue you're having? Why am I "taking the piss", precisely?

Point cost is the best stat, as 7th edition Marines showed.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Did you bring Gaunts, and did their shooting/melee do significant damage to any armor?

Never in a position to shoot at armour. In fact, I think one of my Gaunt units fired all game. At some Terminators. Not sure what this has to do with anything though...

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Of course if your weapons are high S, they wound everything easily.

Ok... and?

I answered the OPs question with my thought that Damage is the most important stat, and that Toughness is not, because Toughness can't actually prevent you from being wounded as anything can wound anything on a 6, whereas causing lots of damage is very important.

So, again, what's the issue you're having? Why am I "taking the piss", precisely?

Toughness DOES prevent you from being wounded ffs..... Thats my point...

If you shoot your S3 gaunts at T5 termis, i assume you didnt accomplish much because the termis didnt even need to roll their saves.

If you shoot your S3 gaunts at T3 guardsmen, then you'll force more saves on them.

And if I'm wounding on 6's anyway, I'll take the weapon that does more Damage should it get through.

Damage is more important.

Toughness does affect the efficiency of the Damage.

S12 D3 is twice as effective on T10 than S5 D6. The relationship of Strenght and Damage means each point of damage is 4 times as effective if you are wounding on 3+ than if you are wounding on 6+.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And if I'm wounding on 6's anyway, I'll take the weapon that does more Damage should it get through.

Damage is more important.

Are there any multi-damage weapons that routinely wound common targets on a 6? In those instances, are they competing with D1 weapons. Obviously this is a theoretical thread, but it does seem that GW have a general policy of not giving mutli-damage to low S weapons. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is the Heavy Bolter, which will wound most vehicles on 6s.

We've had the same S/T chart since 8th edition and the only time the ability to always wound on 6s has been a problem was at the end of 8th when re-rolls were absolutely everywhere. I've always found the complaints about always wounding on 6s to be massively overblown.

Maybe the big anti tank weapons, both the flat dmg ones and the DW ones, should have problems with hiting infantry. Trying to nab an infantry man with an RPG is a lot harder then hiting a tank or monster. Maybe this is the way to create the divide between all heavy weapons. The super weapons, the extra heavy stuff, slams like a donkey, but is worthless vs infantry. small heavy weapons are good vs anti infantry, but aren't much better then a bolter vs a tank. Meanwhile those Auto Canons, Reaper, scater lasers would be somewhere in the middle. hiting everything on the same to hit roll, but without the 2d6 wounds or 12DW on hit.

Weapon.

Movement, unless you play on a skewed blank field with insufficient terrain.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And if I'm wounding on 6's anyway, I'll take the weapon that does more Damage should it get through.

Damage is more important.

Nah. A S12 D1 Weapon is way better than a S1 D12 weapon.

But in all things, the effectiveness of a weapon or a unit's defensive stats is a relationship between multiple stats. Still, 8th-9th edition proved that having a weapon with enough A, S and AP is more important that the weapon's D.

 alextroy wrote:
A S12 D1 Weapon is way better than a S1 D12 weapon.

Ok. And? Damage is still a more important stat than Toughness.

Actually, scratch that. I don't think it is a better weapon.

An S1 D12 weapon might need a 6 to wound everything, but if it does it'll absolutely smash it. It's the best "fishing for 6's" weapon I've ever seen.

An S12 D1 weapon on the other hand won't have much trouble wounding most things... and then score a paltry 1 Damage? So impressive. Much dangerous. Wow!

 alextroy wrote:
But in all things, the effectiveness of a weapon or a unit's defensive stats is a relationship between multiple stats. Still, 8th-9th edition proved that having a weapon with enough A, S and AP is more important that the weapon's D.

It is a combination of various factors, but as Strength v Toughness has a hard ceiling, and anything can wound anything, I think Damage is therefore more important.

Doesn't mean that Toughness isn't important, just that Damage is more important.

Surely the important of damage is dependent on the target, a unit of single wound models makes damage pretty much irrelevant.

This is really an impossible question to answer due the the variety of situations that favour one stat over another??

I still think special rules are really the best stat.

s1 d12 becomes super amazing with [Devastating Wounds] or [Lethal Hits] or [Anti-Opponent's Minis 4+]

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I still think special rules are really the best stat.

s1 d12 becomes super amazing with [Devastating Wounds] or [Lethal Hits] or [Anti-Opponent's Minis 4+]

That is true!

But playing my ORKS yesterday number of shots was key! One I got to roll masses of dice and second it killed loads of stuff. Nothing more scientific than that.

Actually, Attacks is the most important stat. Gameplay history says a weapon with moderate Strength (say 5-8), Moderate AP (around -2), and Moderate Damage (2 or 3) will be favored if it has enough Attacks. On the other hand, weapons with high damage are routinely ignored if they have only a single Attack.

Strength needs to be a little higher now that the Toughness scale has expanded, but Attacks are king.