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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/24 20:35:55
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan
Mexico
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Wayniac wrote:Did it really change though or is it just a drawback of a culture based on social media where people feel if they're popular they have a majority voice. I don't think it's a coincidence that the majority of content creators and such also happen to be tournament players and pushing competitive play over everything else. I mean, social media has real and measurable social impact, so either way it did change. But it isn't also just social media. It is also the issue that young people these days rarely have the space and/or time to hold games and depend on FLG for games. Moreover society, for several reasons, is far more atomized. Those two situations means having a tight group of close friends to garage hammer is mostly a thing of the past, and narrative based play is very dependent on garage hammer being a thing. In addition it is trivial to google up a tourney list and thus to know what to buy if you want to win, it is very easy to start an escalating plastic arms race these days. And lastly, the community is simply much larger, with many players being introduced in 8th and later and thus having a very different expectations.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/10/24 20:47:02
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/24 20:48:21
Subject: Re:Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader
Bamberg / Erlangen
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Maybe it’s my career, but you’re putting a lot of faith in people being far more honest than people actually are with that.
We’ve all played against bad losers, who’ll blame everything but their own decisions and competence. Not just in the game but in life.
Tournaments results are considerably more verifiable. Put such an app out into the wild? You’ve no way to strip out dishonesty from the submitted results. At all.
Let me quote myself from another thread regarding this topic:
- Make a proper list building app and website, so you have exact unit configuration saved while providing an incentive for the user to do it.
- The app could assist during the game so you can keep track of the overall score and all secondaries.
- Submit the result at the end of the game to a server for parsing.
- The app could assign a "MMR" to you which gets higher if you win against other people of the same or higher MMR than you and gets lower if you lose, or stays the same if you continuously play against the same people.
... there is simply no way of preventing any malicious use while keeping it accessable enough. You could, however, do something like this:
- After you submit your battle data, generate a (QR) code for the other player to enter, so the result gets confirmed and the armies get paired.
- Introduce different kind of "trust levels" by which you can filter the results. Something like "Garagehammer (only confirmed by participating players)", "Bunker alliance" for games taking place in affiliated clubs and stores and finally "Tournament and Warhammer shops confirmed". So for Bunker and Tournament you need something like a third party confirmation that the game did indeed happen like this.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/24 21:06:00
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Tyran wrote:Wayniac wrote:Did it really change though or is it just a drawback of a culture based on social media where people feel if they're popular they have a majority voice. I don't think it's a coincidence that the majority of content creators and such also happen to be tournament players and pushing competitive play over everything else.
I mean, social media has real and measurable social impact, so either way it did change.
But it isn't also just social media. It is also the issue that young people these days rarely have the space and/or time to hold games and depend on FLG for games. Moreover society, for several reasons, is far more atomized. Those two situations means having a tight group of close friends to garage hammer is mostly a thing of the past, and narrative based play is very dependent on garage hammer being a thing.
Because no one has ever run a campaign or narrative game down at the local shop....
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/24 21:15:22
Subject: Re:Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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Preparing the Invasion of Terra
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a_typical_hero wrote:Let me quote myself from another thread regarding this topic:
- Make a proper list building app and website, so you have exact unit configuration saved while providing an incentive for the user to do it.
- The app could assist during the game so you can keep track of the overall score and all secondaries.
- Submit the result at the end of the game to a server for parsing.
- The app could assign a "MMR" to you which gets higher if you win against other people of the same or higher MMR than you and gets lower if you lose, or stays the same if you continuously play against the same people.
... there is simply no way of preventing any malicious use while keeping it accessable enough. You could, however, do something like this:
- After you submit your battle data, generate a (QR) code for the other player to enter, so the result gets confirmed and the armies get paired.
- Introduce different kind of "trust levels" by which you can filter the results. Something like "Garagehammer (only confirmed by participating players)", "Bunker alliance" for games taking place in affiliated clubs and stores and finally "Tournament and Warhammer shops confirmed". So for Bunker and Tournament you need something like a third party confirmation that the game did indeed happen like this.
So your solution is to make people do paperwork after they do their hobby? Paperwork that is easily manipulated because it's an open-ended system where a few people could ruin the system with thousands of fake results?
Sounds like a great idea. /s
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/24 21:58:10
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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"Tournament data is the only way to balance things!" might be the next brain-bug after "Symmetrical terrain is needed for balance!". We know - we know - that their playtesting efforts are massively insufficient and the methodology for creating Codices is flawed (sequential development rather than parallel, at least as an edition goes along after the initial release flurry). The former means that books come out with glaring bone-headed and flagrantly obvious mistakes that most of us pick up on a first readthrough, the latter leads to mid-edition paradigm shifts where suddenly every Codex after a certain point changes its structure or emphasis, often as a knee-jerk reaction to what's happening in 40k at the start of its development. If they weren't so obsessively secretive about things, they could have a thriving playtest network that irons out as many of the bugs (not all, that's impossible) as they can before these things to go print. "But people will leak things! We've already seen that happen in 9th!" And? So? But? Therefore? If GW wasn't so secretive with everything*, the impetuous to leak things wouldn't be so high. If they said they were doing Codices X, Y and Z next year, and playtesting is ongoing, and perhaps used some of the stories of that playtesting to fill pages in their damned monthly magazine (an incentive to buy it for those interested in the game's development!), then the mad dash to leak and find things out wouldn't be as strong. This sort of change requires an attitude adjustment from GW, one I doubt they'd ever take despite the obvious benefits it could yield. *Remember the 8th Ed Sisters Codex? Remember how quite a number of the units didn't have photos in the book because they weren't released at the same time as the Codex, meaning that for units like Repentia, Archos and Seraphim the only pictures in the book were the mono-pose ones from the preview box? Yeah. That's the kind of insane secrecy we're talking about.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/10/24 22:06:41
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/24 22:08:23
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan
Mexico
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Tournaments are probably the only way to produce large amounts of verifiable and usable data, so naturally should make the core aspect of balance. It shouldn't be the only data and GW should have an actual playtesting team, but at the end of the day tournament data will still be better. Playtesting is more for detecting and fixing bugs and edge cases than actual balance. And tournnament data isn't just win rate. Army composition, missions, terrain, etc. You can get pretty much everything as long as you are willing to use that data.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/10/24 22:09:49
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/24 22:12:07
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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Tell that to GW.
They see 50% and go "Job's a good 'un!" and move onto something else without factoring in what's causing that 50% win rate, or what units are never being taken (or always being taken).
This is what I mean when I talk about Metawatch articles being Dunning Kruger articles. They talk the talk, but I don't think they have any real understanding of what they're talking about.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/24 22:21:22
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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H.B.M.C. wrote:Tell that to GW.
They see 50% and go "Job's a good 'un!" and move onto something else without factoring in what's causing that 50% win rate, or what units are never being taken (or always being taken).
This is what I mean when I talk about Metawatch articles being Dunning Kruger articles. They talk the talk, but I don't think they have any real understanding of what they're talking about.
That right there is the problem. Yes the tournament data is better than nothing because it's the most generic type of data you can get since you obviously can't poll individual groups.
But the way they look at that data seems to indicate that they have no clue what they're actually looking at or what the actual problems might be because win rate is a terrible metric since it doesn't take into account what's being used
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- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/24 22:29:38
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern
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To recap my opinion.
Tournaments are a source of verifiable data.
To borrow from Discworld? In my own way, I’m a Sam Vimes. I don’t consider myself a child born outside of wedlock, but boy, do I know how to think like a child born outside of wedlock
The App suggestions are solid. But.
They’re never gonna be verifiable. Sure, I could log my army list. We could log turn by turn events. But at all points there, with no oversight, you’re relying on people being honest.
And being a Sam Vimesian sort, 11 years into a career of dealing with liars? People just aren’t that honest.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/24 22:31:30
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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Impassive Inquisitorial Interrogator
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H.B.M.C. wrote:Tell that to GW.
They see 50% and go "Job's a good 'un!" and move onto something else without factoring in what's causing that 50% win rate, or what units are never being taken (or always being taken).
This is what I mean when I talk about Metawatch articles being Dunning Kruger articles. They talk the talk, but I don't think they have any real understanding of what they're talking about.
As a prime example, that DW 51% number is because they had a single player hitting top-level tables, which is honestly damning to the state of the faction if there's only one player in their dataset, a Mr. Travis Gibson, who went 4-1, and literally the only one this last period. Not to mention the recent stealth-update of the indexes show that the Fortis Kill-team, the one looking most likely to take top spot among the teams, does not benefit from the strats, as the Heavy Bolter and Heavy Bolt rifles are apparently, not bolt weapons.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/10/24 22:39:46
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/24 22:31:57
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Wayniac wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote:Tell that to GW.
They see 50% and go "Job's a good 'un!" and move onto something else without factoring in what's causing that 50% win rate, or what units are never being taken (or always being taken).
This is what I mean when I talk about Metawatch articles being Dunning Kruger articles. They talk the talk, but I don't think they have any real understanding of what they're talking about.
That right there is the problem. Yes the tournament data is better than nothing because it's the most generic type of data you can get since you obviously can't poll individual groups.
But the way they look at that data seems to indicate that they have no clue what they're actually looking at or what the actual problems might be because win rate is a terrible metric since it doesn't take into account what's being used
Which then brings us back to the lackluster playtesting in an oversaturated staggered release cycle and too short of an edition.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/10/24 22:34:14
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/24 22:32:37
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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Verifiable yes, but what validity does it hold? If everyone shows up with the same net list, using the same 8-10 units out of a book that has 40+ options, and everyone gets an even number of wins in... wow! 50% win rate. Verified! But also meaningless.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/10/24 22:33:11
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/24 22:33:54
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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H.B.M.C. wrote:Verifiable yes, but what validity does it hold?
If everyone shows up with the same net list, using the same 8-10 units out of a book that has 40+ options, and everyone gets an even number of wins in... wow! 50% win rate. Verified! But also meaningless.
Nvm that the most data producing Set of tournament results is a format that has ... Issues as has been discussed.
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2021/10/24 20:54:00
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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Not Online!!! wrote:Nvm that the most data producing Set of tournament results is a format that has ... Issues as has been discussed.
I'm not sure I catch you meaning, sorry.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/24 23:21:20
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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That seems like an opportunity to me.
Tourney/verifiable data gets to be a control group. "In the wild data" from public participants is another, less reliable, set of data. Then you should also have a number of trusted playtesters creating their own dataset, potentially with a higher level of granularity. Then you get three different sets of data to run any analyses against, two "trusted", and one "wild", and you can use the trusted sets to help check the "wild" data against.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/24 23:34:57
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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You know who just loves missing opportunities?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/24 23:50:42
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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Good ol' James Workshop, that's who
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- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/25 00:53:24
Subject: Re:Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM
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chaos0xomega wrote: VladimirHerzog wrote:ok, but again: What else than tournament results can GW use to decide what changes to make to armies?
If only there was like... some software that you could download onto a personal computational device. You know, something small, like that could fit in your pocket, and which most people carried around with them and had available to them at all times. And this piece of software could let you build army lists in it, and then when you played a game it would let you sync with your opponent to keep track of your objectives and scoring, CP points, etc. and let you track your damage on your units, etc. And when you were done you could submit your game data to GW, and they could analyze it not just by faction but also by detachment and unit and hell even the whole army list and what strategems were used, etc....
...but that would be impossible, no such technology exists, no sir, it can't be done.
ok, let me just log 2000 games where Khorne demons go 100-0 just so GW can nerf them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/25 01:01:10
Subject: Re:Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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VladimirHerzog wrote:chaos0xomega wrote: VladimirHerzog wrote:ok, but again: What else than tournament results can GW use to decide what changes to make to armies?
If only there was like... some software that you could download onto a personal computational device. You know, something small, like that could fit in your pocket, and which most people carried around with them and had available to them at all times. And this piece of software could let you build army lists in it, and then when you played a game it would let you sync with your opponent to keep track of your objectives and scoring, CP points, etc. and let you track your damage on your units, etc. And when you were done you could submit your game data to GW, and they could analyze it not just by faction but also by detachment and unit and hell even the whole army list and what strategems were used, etc....
...but that would be impossible, no such technology exists, no sir, it can't be done.
ok, let me just log 2000 games where Khorne demons go 100-0 just so GW can nerf them.
Imagine being this level of petty over a wargame.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/25 01:04:09
Subject: Re:Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM
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ikr, but would it really surprise you if people really did that?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/25 01:04:43
Subject: Re:Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/25 01:12:49
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan
Mexico
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People would make programs that falsify the logs, and GW probably wouldn't realize that Khorne Demons having over a trillion logged victories is probably not physically possible.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/10/25 01:13:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/25 01:15:56
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
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Tyran wrote:People would make programs that falsify the logs, and GW probably wouldn't realize that Khorne Demons having over a trillion logged victories is probably not physically possible.
probably would say how popular it must be to have logged one million games this month alone or some crap
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- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/25 01:32:36
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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"I guess we must be selling a lot of Khorne Daemons?"
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/25 01:46:51
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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So i don't know if anyone remembers the13th black crusade campaign, but GW did exactly that, they got people to register and log their victories on a special website.
But then they had to have your opponent also log their defeat, or the value of your victory was less.
But even then the sheer number of spurious victory claims made the whole thing a bit of a wash.
People were also just getting their friends to act as their opponent and record a loss to help influence the outcome.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/25 02:25:15
Subject: Re:Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Annandale, VA
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VladimirHerzog wrote:ok, let me just log 2000 games where Khorne demons go 100-0 just so GW can nerf them.
You guys know that bad actor data is something you can detect and purge, right? Like, any company that does user satisfaction surveys has to do this already.
As with so many other discussions relating to 40K, I feel like this is a solved problem being presented as something new and insurmountable.
If GW really did want to push the envelope, they could digitize their games (a la Tabletop Simulator) and use that virtual environment to relay game telemetry. Even just as a private testing tool and not released to the unwashed masses, it would provide all sorts of data that conventional playtesting doesn't. But failing that, soliciting playtesting feedback from a curated group of beta testers and using that to inform development is hardly rocket science.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/25 02:36:48
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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I think they did just that, but used tournament players/organisers only (the aforementioned Mike Brand and Reecius).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/10/25 02:36:58
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/25 02:38:40
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
The Great State of New Jersey
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There's a million and one solutions to the problem. Tie valid accounts to warhammer + subs to prevent abuse and require verification from an opponent, cap each player to one submitted game per week to prevent spam, etc.
GW can afford to hire a halfway decent data scientist to figure this out, it's not hard.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/25 03:12:40
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Crusade is a significant game mode and it's impossible to balance because it has victory and advancement on two different vectors so a player might focus on one thing at the detriment of another. Just like the game shouldn't be balanced based on painting scores, not even partially.
Players not playing to win is another issue that makes casual unsuited for data analysis, while I think it's wrong to throw the game for entertainment purposes, many casual gamers disagree.
Everyone in tournaments does not show up with the same netlist and GW regularly buff underperforming units and nerf overperforming ones, while the times where they attack with the bone saw instead of the scalpel is annoying, that doesn't mean they never use the scalpel. The thing to always keep in mind is that unlike what some posters claim the 40k game designers are garbage at what they do. Management at times being awful is unfortunate, but waiting for monkeys with typewriters to write the next Mozart is silly.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2023/10/25 03:17:26
Subject: Has 10th Edition drained the soul from 40K?
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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vict0988 wrote:Everyone in tournaments does not show up with the same netlist and GW regularly buff underperforming units and nerf overperforming ones, while the times where they attack with the bone saw instead of the scalpel is annoying, that doesn't mean they never use the scalpel. The thing to always keep in mind is that unlike what some posters claim the 40k game designers are garbage at what they do. Management at times being awful is unfortunate, but waiting for monkeys with typewriters to write the next Mozart is silly.
They also nerf units that have already been nerfed because they were powerful in the previous edition (or several editions ago), and I'm not sure they have a bone saw and a scalpel. I think they have one blade that they don't know how to use very well, meaning that sometimes they get it right, and sometimes they don't. Broken clock syndrome, really. And this is made all the worse by the fact that it shouldn't be this way. It's the 10th Edition of the game. Their problems with iteration vs throwing the baby out with the bath water are infuriating, and their knee-jerk reactions to win rates at tournaments are infantile (the game isn't even 6 months old and they're already messing with core rules with "balance dataslates" that are anything but!).
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/10/25 03:29:29
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