Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I feel if you want demons to be their own book, they needed to lean into undivided demons which aside for the odd attempt here and there they never did.

Laughing Man wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
Then there is the problem that in AoS the ranged side of each god army is covered by mortal archers, so that ranged demon unit would be stepping on these toes now. Ditto in 40K. Do we even have any prominent demon types doing ranged warfare in fluff? If not, maybe just leave it to mortals and let demons keep their own theme instead of diluting it...

Pretty much all Tzeentch daemons but Screamers are ranged rather than melee (or both), with the mortal side mostly being melee units. Skyfires are the only exception in Disciples, I think.

But that's the same problem, just reversed. Imagine doing melee Tzeentch daemons, they would be competing for role (and OoU, sales) with mortals. Yes, I suppose daemon artillery and big beasts are still a niche that can be plugged, but overall, while I kind of like each god force being its own thing currently it's model range that was made for completely different army design so if GW wants to split it up they really should have models/units fixing the issues coming from transition available immediately upon the switch, not years later, IMO (and while they are doing these they should take both AoS and 40K chaos ranges they will be merging into account, because again, a lot of issues the army currently has are grandfathered in from the time it was WFB army, a completely different animal in every possible way that is just bad fit to both AoS and 40K)...

 Overread wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Honestly whilst its a shame to lose demon only armies; its worked REALLY well in AoS. Each of the 4 demons have entirely distinct visual styles and themes so splitting them into their own armies means that you can then really focus on giving more models to fill roles that were, before, filled by another demon from another of the 4 gods.

Ok, and what then you do with Belakor/Archaon/Failbaddon? Their whole gimmick is combining all four into one force. Fifth undivided book that copies the four god ones?

Perhaps or put them in Slaves to Darkness/Chaos and then simply have an option within there to take demons with a limit on the roster options. Alternate statlines can also be done that way too. Much in the same way that genestealer cults can take stealers and broodlords.

This is literally what they're doing with Age of Sigmar: Be'lakor is in the Slaves to Darkness book, and has an Army of Renown that allows him to take certain Daemon units.

Of course, if that was the plan, why wasn't he in the CSM codex to begin with?

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Honestly whilst its a shame to lose demon only armies; its worked REALLY well in AoS. Each of the 4 demons have entirely distinct visual styles and themes so splitting them into their own armies means that you can then really focus on giving more models to fill roles that were, before, filled by another demon from another of the 4 gods.

Ok, and what then you do with Belakor/Archaon/Failbaddon? Their whole gimmick is combining all four into one force. Fifth undivided book that copies the four god ones?

Perhaps or put them in Slaves to Darkness/Chaos and then simply have an option within there to take demons with a limit on the roster options. Alternate statlines can also be done that way too. Much in the same way that genestealer cults can take stealers and broodlords.

This is literally what they're doing with Age of Sigmar: Be'lakor is in the Slaves to Darkness book, and has an Army of Renown that allows him to take certain Daemon units.

Of course, if that was the plan, why wasn't he in the CSM codex to begin with?

because that would have been a dead giveaway that they were going to remove the daemons codex like a year before it happened. and they wouldnt sell as many daemon models then, probably.

between none of the god aligned legions not having a codex + no daemons codex yet, i think the writing is on the wall.

What are the odds of a codex supplement to Codex Chaos Space Marines for Belakor, Daemon Forge Dude and possibly Dark Mechanicus to gather odds and ends like Imperial Agents does at the end of the Chaos release cycle? That could be a way to retain full daemon armies, solve the undivided daemons problem and give GW another book to sell.

Cant decide if Grey knights would be in an even tighter niche with daemons split into differnt codexes. You might have more opportunities to fight daemons, but your entire army would be specialised in a limited number of the opponents units (and probably effective against the least intimidating part of the enemies force).

 Fayric wrote:
Cant decide if Grey knights would be in an even tighter niche with daemons split into differnt codexes. You might have more opportunities to fight daemons, but your entire army would be specialised in a limited number of the opponents units (and probably effective against the least intimidating part of the enemies force).

It depends how well thought out the codex is. For example instead of having rules that specifically counter DAEMON models*, GK could have rules to counter traits most typically used by daemons that are still useful into other opponents:
Dev wounds to bypass invulns
Anti-psyker / anti-monster
Deep strike prevention auras
etc

*the writers do seem to have considered this already for the GK index, as the DAEMON keyword is typically only used on named characters or enhancements that can't spammed multiple times

I cant say that greyknights are worst agains other army,s. they are quit good at killing other stuf.

 Geifer wrote:
What are the odds of a codex supplement to Codex Chaos Space Marines for Belakor, Daemon Forge Dude and possibly Dark Mechanicus to gather odds and ends like Imperial Agents does at the end of the Chaos release cycle? That could be a way to retain full daemon armies, solve the undivided daemons problem and give GW another book to sell.

Given we got a new Night Lord's character this morning, I'd say its not out of the realm of possibility.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
What are the odds of a codex supplement to Codex Chaos Space Marines for Belakor, Daemon Forge Dude and possibly Dark Mechanicus to gather odds and ends like Imperial Agents does at the end of the Chaos release cycle? That could be a way to retain full daemon armies, solve the undivided daemons problem and give GW another book to sell.

Given we got a new Night Lord's character this morning, I'd say its not out of the realm of possibility.

wait what? i'm not seeing a night lords character on warcom

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
What are the odds of a codex supplement to Codex Chaos Space Marines for Belakor, Daemon Forge Dude and possibly Dark Mechanicus to gather odds and ends like Imperial Agents does at the end of the Chaos release cycle? That could be a way to retain full daemon armies, solve the undivided daemons problem and give GW another book to sell.

Given we got a new Night Lord's character this morning, I'd say its not out of the realm of possibility.

wait what? i'm not seeing a night lords character on warcom

It's in the app update. I'm guessing they haven't updated warcom yet. His name is Nemesis Claw.

 LunarSol wrote:
Given we got a new Night Lord's character this morning, I'd say its not out of the realm of possibility.

Wait a minute! What new Night Lords character?!

 LunarSol wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
What are the odds of a codex supplement to Codex Chaos Space Marines for Belakor, Daemon Forge Dude and possibly Dark Mechanicus to gather odds and ends like Imperial Agents does at the end of the Chaos release cycle? That could be a way to retain full daemon armies, solve the undivided daemons problem and give GW another book to sell.

Given we got a new Night Lord's character this morning, I'd say its not out of the realm of possibility.

We got what

 LunarSol wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
What are the odds of a codex supplement to Codex Chaos Space Marines for Belakor, Daemon Forge Dude and possibly Dark Mechanicus to gather odds and ends like Imperial Agents does at the end of the Chaos release cycle? That could be a way to retain full daemon armies, solve the undivided daemons problem and give GW another book to sell.

Given we got a new Night Lord's character this morning, I'd say its not out of the realm of possibility.

wait what? i'm not seeing a night lords character on warcom

It's in the app update. I'm guessing they haven't updated warcom yet. His name is Nemesis Claw.

that's the name of the kill team, right? are you sure it's a character, and not the kill team getting bespoke rules in 40k?

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:


that's the name of the kill team, right? are you sure it's a character, and not the kill team getting bespoke rules in 40k?

It is the Kill Team getting bespoke rules.

The squad gets:
Stealth
+1 to hit against below starting strength / +1 to wound against below half strength
Shuts down stratagem use for non-monster / vehicle units in engagement range

5 models for 110pts, 10 models for 190pts

https://assets.warhammer-community.com/eng_nemesis_claw_datasheet_card-hbjsmqk8aw-5gdhkm3hzf.pdf
and here's the PDF, from warcom

I am apparently very bad at remembering Chaos names

to be fair, based on my cursory understanding of space marine lore, i think it's totally possible for Night Lords to have a character named Nemesis Claw

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
to be fair, based on my cursory understanding of space marine lore, i think it's totally possible for Night Lords to have a character named Nemesis Claw

He's the estranged brother of Nemesis DOOMFIST

The new Nemesis claw rules actually look pretty good, especially for 10. Bring them decked out for CC and I think they are worth the 10 extra points over the normal legionaries as stealth can help get them across the board safer (so could forgo the Rhino) and I think their rule is better than the re-roll wounds on 1's, though probably not as good as re-roll wounds on objectives. I can see arguments both ways which is good as you don't want one to be vastly better than the other. I might try to pick up a unit of these guys.

I wonder what the link between those Nemesis weapons are and the Grey Knights Nemesis weapons.

None at all. It's just a name for the Night Lord Killteam.

 Gert wrote:
None at all. It's just a name for the Night Lord Killteam.

Oh, ok. Thanks!

I know its an old saw - but "we need to simplify 40k and reduce bloat."

"Okay, how about this 5 man squad, which can have 5 different melee profiles you'll need to roll separately?"
"Seems great, ship it."

I guess this is often something of a Kill Team translation thing - but still.

I didn't want to start a new thread, and there are a lot of emperors children references in this thread...

I thought the EC had the sonic weapons and guitars before the heresy began... why no EC 30k musical awesomeness? (Feel free to point me in the right direction.... again, if I've missed the obviously large signposts).

What do you think these guys are meant to be?

 Dysartes wrote:
What do you think these guys are meant to be?

I'll narrow it down to guitars.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
What do you think these guys are meant to be?

I'll narrow it down to guitars.

They developed sonic weapons in the heresy leading the kakaphoni linked above. They were only ever guitars in the 80's/early 90's goofy cheesy era of 40k

Dudeface wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
What do you think these guys are meant to be?

I'll narrow it down to guitars.

They developed sonic weapons in the heresy leading the kakaphoni linked above. They were only ever guitars in the 80's/early 90's goofy cheesy era of 40k

And in one nostalgia-hit limited model a few years back.

40k have zero comic relief these days (well, intended comic relief anyway), so I would say there is very little chance of noice marines with guitars.
(and thats a good thing in my opinion)