Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also, Bolt Rounds are meant to be caseless ammunition.

I have always assumed this but can find no evidence in-universe that says it outright. I have a vague memory that Jes Goodwin may have mentioned it in an interview about the design of the 3rd edition Tactical Squad (something like "artists always drew shell casings flying out of the gun, so we went with it") circa WD 226. If someone could find where he said it, it would calm my mind greatly.

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also, Bolt Rounds are meant to be caseless ammunition.

I have always assumed this but can find no evidence in-universe that says it outright. I have a vague memory that Jes Goodwin may have mentioned it in an interview about the design of the 3rd edition Tactical Squad (something like "artists always drew shell casings flying out of the gun, so we went with it") circa WD 226. If someone could find where he said it, it would calm my mind greatly.

I always assumed that caseless bolter shells are just one of those things people pick up secondhand and perpetuate.

It's conceivable that one type of special bolter ammo is caseless (I seem to remember something like that) and people got the wrong impression from it and applied it to all bolter ammo.

I'm pretty sure the 3rd ed rule book has a technical drawing of a shell with casing. That may be about the best hard evidence for shell casings aside from every image of a Marine firing a bolter ever. Also going back to 2nd ed the Marine marksman's honor is crafted from a spent bolter shell casing, which would be all kinds of silly if bolter shells were meant to be caseless.

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also, Bolt Rounds are meant to be caseless ammunition.

I have always assumed this but can find no evidence in-universe that says it outright. I have a vague memory that Jes Goodwin may have mentioned it in an interview about the design of the 3rd edition Tactical Squad (something like "artists always drew shell casings flying out of the gun, so we went with it") circa WD 226. If someone could find where he said it, it would calm my mind greatly.

Liber Astartes (2nd Ed Heresy) begs to differ!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also, Bolt Rounds are meant to be caseless ammunition.

I have always assumed this but can find no evidence in-universe that says it outright. I have a vague memory that Jes Goodwin may have mentioned it in an interview about the design of the 3rd edition Tactical Squad (something like "artists always drew shell casings flying out of the gun, so we went with it") circa WD 226. If someone could find where he said it, it would calm my mind greatly.

Liber Astartes (2nd Ed Heresy) begs to differ!

That's quite a recent book! Anything with a greater vintage than that? Otherwise, this is technically a retcon!

Bolter rounds may be meant to be caseless, but i fear tens of thousands of years of fighting Orcs who KNOW Dakka throws out tons of empty cases has permanently warped reality so they always do

a few senior members of the Imperium are aware of the issue, but choose to ignore it (temporarily) as their only other option would to be to abandon the bolter entirely and eliminate the Astartes (and Battle Sisters) around who this strange phenomenon occurs

I know there was a bolter illustration that clearly tagged the bolter ammunition as caseless.
Basically an older version of the passage above in the HH2nd book.
That I cannot produce it does not mean it didn't exist.
It is not "I heard from a friend" anecdote.
It was official fluff at one point.

It's also the Imperium - there's every chance its caseless as standard issue; but that there's a bunch of cased out there in the Universe that gets used anyway.

think 5th Edition Marine Codex mentions it somewhere in the back with the weapon descriptions but I am sure I have read is earlier but my guess would be a WD article or an Imperial Armour book

but it is was always shown with cases, simply because weapon fire looks cooler with cases as the very same 5th edition codex has a cover with the Bolter ejecting cases while the descriptions say they don't have them

 kodos wrote:
think 5th Edition Marine Codex mentions it somewhere in the back with the weapon descriptions but I am sure I have read is earlier but my guess would be a WD article or an Imperial Armour book

but it is was always shown with cases, simply because weapon fire looks cooler with cases as the very same 5th edition codex has a cover with the Bolter ejecting cases while the descriptions say they don't have them

It's also quite likely that whoever wrote it had no concept of what it meant, and just read it somewhere and thought it sounded cool.

I’ll check my Rogue Trader era books at some point.

I’m sure this came up before, and Rogue Trader may have been silent on it? But not sure if that was the OG book I checked, or the later “pretty much 2nd Ed Wargear Book” book.

There is also plenty of models with bolters showing cases, and marksman honors which are single bolter rounds in a case.

I think it's the classic case of sounds cool vs. looks cool.

Movies have a hard time with this too. (See. Aliens and Starship Troopers).

“caseless ammo” was cutting edge high tech stuff in the 80s.

But as it turns out, not very practical.

And spent brass both has rule of cool going for it, plus helps illustrate fire.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’ll check my Rogue Trader era books at some point.

I’m sure this came up before, and Rogue Trader may have been silent on it? But not sure if that was the OG book I checked, or the later “pretty much 2nd Ed Wargear Book” book.

The only place the 2nd ed wargear book says caseless is in the autogun entry.


I think this is a case of a Mandela Effect of people conflating the autogun text with the fact that the historical gyrojet gun doesn't have a case.

I've done a lot of looking in old books and never seen a piece of text that said the bolter was caseless. Your pic from the HH is the first one I've ever seen.

Funnily enough in the, I think, third edition codex space marines there was even a technical sketch of a Bolter round with a case… but it was an extremely short case, akin to the brass on the bottom of a shotgun shell, rather than the full length cases you see in artwork and models.

That was supposed to be emphasising that the bolter only uses a small charge to fire it to get it to speed before the rocket kicks in, rather than a full charge.

The perennial problem is the size of the round plus the cartridge. The whole thing would be ~100mm long if it used a full size case.


It's also the main thing I point out whenever anyone buys into the 'redbull can calibre' meme for bolters - if they were that big the magazine would hold 5 rounds....

Current mk3 marines have 5 rounds (4 visible) modelled in their bolters, which is one thing I never really liked.

Yeah the can size calibre is heavy bolters. Regular boltguns are officially .75 calibre or ¾ inch which is slightly bigger than most shotgun barrels.

And the average magazine capacity is 24 to 32 rounds. A straight magazine of zigzag stacked rounds overlaps them by a bit, so say each round takes 1/2 an inch of space vertically, that's up to 16" of ammo, plus the magazine frame.

A 2" wide round is going to require a magazine more than twice the size (32"+) to contain the same amount of ammo.

Marines are big, but their magazines aren't 3 feet long....

Think that is enough of that tangent now thanks, take it to its own thread.

Space Wolves and Drop Pods on pre-order next week - along with a MTO for the Battle Sanctum Statue...

Didn't think the full release of Space Wolves would be so soon

It's nice that the statue is getting a release, even if as an MTO, but couldn't they have bundled the ruins that it originally shipped with?

Is this what will happen going forward? Will the Tyranid terrain also be MTO in a few months? What about the other stuff that's been skipped from previous Kill Team boxes like the generators?

I know they often tout multi option or duel builds, but have they specifically flagged kits as "This single-option miniature comes on a 40mm base.” verbiage before?

Normally it’s just quietly assumed there are no options in the kit...

These new pods are built with the doors fixed downwards for easier deployment, with extra iconography included for the Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, Black Templars, Raven Guard, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels.

Surprised theres no Salamanders or White Scars (but moreso Salamanders) included on that list. Ive been under the impression from the roadmaps that GW was planning a codex supplement for Sallies in the near future (based on the salamanders art tease featured on it). I had assumed based on that (and other rumors) that GW would be making a renewed emphasis on the supplement chapters (beyond just the BA/DA/SW/BT quadfecta) and giving them all similar levels of support.

 The Phazer wrote:
It's nice that the statue is getting a release, even if as an MTO, but couldn't they have bundled the ruins that it originally shipped with?

I can only speculate that maybe there was enough of an outcry at the statue not being released to make GW consider making it available again, but not enough to do anything other than MTO.

Maybe we can get a MTO sometime of the ruins without the statue for cheaper?

The Wolves came out fast. One of those rare releases that I like 100% of it. Some of GW best work with this release.

One day we'll get an MTO for the Firestorm Redoubt, Aquila Strongpoint, Plasma Obliterator, and Vengeance Weapon Battery... one day....

Grey Knights Combat Patrol.

Note the Venerable Dreadnought.