Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

tneva82 wrote:
Not like AT points are of relevance. Different rules, different power within game. What is powerful in one game might not be that big in other game.

In AT you field entire squadrons of knights for titan, here couple and you are approaching bigger titans. Warhound is cheaper per marine basic infantry model in LI than in 40k etc etc etc.

Not when its vastly out of sync and lore with other games. Not by a long shot.

We're taking 60% vs 20%. No.

tneva82 wrote:
Not like AT points are of relevance. Different rules, different power within game. What is powerful in one game might not be that big in other game.

In AT you field entire squadrons of knights for titan, here couple and you are approaching bigger titans. Warhound is cheaper per marine basic infantry model in LI than in 40k etc etc etc.

We have the rules now. It's plain to see several problems, units don't pay for weapons outside of a few exceptions where they are called upgrades, and they are often very oddly priced. The vast majorit of weapons cost no points, so there are obvious winners and losers in loadouts. A lascannon has never been equiv of a demolisher and isn't in this, but is presented the same. It gets much more egregious with titans, as other have mentioned the point cost is on a curve, the psi titan is 75pts more than the warlord and significantly better. The warp missile on he reaver is completely broken. The warmaster is only 150pts more than the warlord and has twice the voids, a 1+ save and more weapons than i have fingers. Planes point costs are very suspect as well. It's a very good thing the stronger units like knights and titans are indexed to point level 70/30 or it'd be a real nightmare.

Add to that expanding detachments point cost also get cheaper the more you buy, so there's also a hellish crossover between msu and giant units of everything from tanks to walker to infantry. Again people have the books now so the who knows things doesn't work.

On top of that, many more examples:

- Tactical Marines Detachment, 6 bases, 47 points
- Lasrifle Tercio Detachment, 6 bases, 42 points.

- Legion Rapier Battery Detachment, 6 strong: 100 points
- Auxilia Rapier Battery; 6 strong: 90 points

Marines are vastly superior and cost just a little bit more...

Points also take into account Wider Context of the force a given unit, model or what have you, belongs to.

Especially where Allies are a limited points percentage, and extend to such things as Titans and Knights.

It all adds up and changes what one can and can’t include.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Points also take into account Wider Context of the force a given unit, model or what have you, belongs to.

Especially where Allies are a limited points percentage, and extend to such things as Titans and Knights.

It all adds up and changes what one can and can’t include.

Yes but but point costs being off on a particular unit type get made worse because adding more models of that type to a detachment also sees points curve/discount the more you add. This "lifts all boats" in that it combats msu/more activations with smaller units by rewarding players who increase unit size of existing detachments with a point discount, but if a unit is already very good for its points, say for example it just has a lot of really good firepower and already feels better than equiv costed units, adding more really really makes the problem worse in terms of discounting an already undercosted unit. Again, there are units that have the option to take upgrades either in the form of changing a weapon, a bonus weapon or an entirely different loadout/statline/special rules. So it is odd when you get to like titans and see you're still not paying for any weapons. 70/30 keeps them largely in check thankfully, but the similar problems persist, especially in units with a lot of loadout choice/variance. Malcadors have 4 huil options. 3 turret and 3 sponson options. With the hull options for example presenting a demolisher cannon up against heavy bolters/autocannon/lascannon. You also see strange discrepancies with the kratos where one could have hull bolters and sponson las, but have the same loadout on another kratos with simply the location of the bolters and las swapped and all of a sudden the hull las get accurate. Which also makes parsing out dice extra granular the less people unify their detachment's weapon loadouts.

The thing that I find a shame with this is that there was no effort to community outreach by the guys that developed this game (and I've asked - creators of NetEpic, Imperialis Dominatus etc.) to the people who have literally lived and breathed Epic for the past 20 years. And that really could have helped with this sort of thing.

If you play NetEpic now Vs SM2 lots of the point values have been adjusted, so you no longer have 'must have' units or ones which are useless because they cost too many points. But that's only come from lots of playtesting and many years of community feedback.
Just seems nuts to me that you had that great resource available there, and it evidently wasn't used.

 Pacific wrote:
The thing that I find a shame with this is that there was no effort to community outreach by the guys that developed this game (and I've asked - creators of NetEpic, Imperialis Dominatus etc.) to the people who have literally lived and breathed Epic for the past 20 years. And that really could have helped with this sort of thing.

If you play NetEpic now Vs SM2 lots of the point values have been adjusted, so you no longer have 'must have' units or ones which are useless because they cost too many points. But that's only come from lots of playtesting and many years of community feedback.
Just seems nuts to me that you had that great resource available there, and it evidently wasn't used.

The only way GW would contact fanmade stuff like that is for a cease and desist

A shame, maybe. But not unexpected. This wasn’t Jervis writing.Epic: Armageddon on an open forum, it’s the same company that rewrote Blood Bowl and Necromunda.

On the other hand, I downloaded Net Epic Gold once and ran away screaming.

Its interesting looking at the scenarios, I think this may be worth keeping in mind with points, especially infantry

games seem to be all five turns, and all have progressive scoring, thus mobility and deployment tricks to get on the objectives fast matters - one side getting the jump, even for one turn could swing this

in some ways a units killing power isn't that important, and none of the infantry are overly survivable anyway so in practice the bit that makes marines better is the higher CAF, the save may not matter much with what looks like the volume of fire available in the anti infantry role.

e.g. the Sicaran will always have the 2 dice hull heavy bolter, and then the sponsons, which if I'm reading this right are a further 2 dice total.

which seems odd in itself (given the sponsons should have a wider arc, and there are two of them) but the stat list doesn't indicate they double up.

regardless, a single Sicaran has 4 heavy bolter dice, ok a 5+ to hit. but marines only have a 5+ save, SA a 6+ so not a lot between them really.

a few tanks will go "DEL-ETE" in a mechanical voice thats probably copyrighted, and good by infantry in the open, a bit better in buildings

so the points for infantry essentially can ignore the save, as both will be in buildings, transports, out of sight of seriously out of luck.. Movement is the same, las-rifles and bolters are pretty similar except at half range (and why they called that [ASSAULT] and not [RAPID FIRE] for sanity is beyond me)

so yes marines cost more, a bit, but the infantry I suspect will end up remarkably similar regardless

leopard wrote:

which seems odd in itself (given the sponsons should have a wider arc, and there are two of them) but the stat list doesn't indicate they double up.

That's keeping dice amount and thus survivability down

so the points for infantry essentially can ignore the save, as both will be in buildings, transports, out of sight of seriously out of luck.. Movement is the same, las-rifles and bolters are pretty similar except at half range (and why they called that [ASSAULT] and not [RAPID FIRE] for sanity is beyond me)

so yes marines cost more, a bit, but the infantry I suspect will end up remarkably similar regardless

SA does have bit longer range so can get first volley without other firing possible.

Marines looks to beat the crap out of SA in open but buildings will even the score.

And yes transports valuable. Common in epic games

Like the 12 scenarios and the secondary system.

Thunderhawks looks potentially real scary dumpping 4 contemptors or 8 melee infantry straight into charge order range T1 but of course alternative actions means it's not QUITE so easy even without factoring interceptors and overwatch with potentially point defence weapons.

Titans will be good at smashing ruins. Especially with melee weapons. There's practically bound to be rules later for REALLY tough buildings as ATM there's no point taking reaver power fist. Powerfist has less ability vs super heavies but will do more damage to buildings. Except chainfist already one shots any building in rulebook that fails save.

Reaver with twin chainfist. Your building has 2+ save? Well take -8 and if fail be destroyed twice over!

(albeit unlikely anybody wastes 2 gun slots for that)

Not used to knights costing so much related to titans. I doubt I could fit all my knights even in 3k all knight list...Bummer! And I don't even have armigers etc 18 questor knights for example costs "couple" points nevermind rest...

Guess I better treat knights as melee warhounds. Seems to be about that and not that much cheaper than warhound.

Can't wait to start painting whenver FLGS might get the boxes. And then to wait for jetbikes and drop pods(my primary wish list for next releases. Feels like fit for both blood angels and sons of horus very well thematically)

Starting to look at weapon load outs and firing. Seems that in general terms a detachment picks a target, and all guns go at that target.

exceptions being units able to split fire and the "point defence" weapons

seems to be a moderator on unit size, no point going too large and wasting shots, remains to be seen what "too large" is in practice.

however what it does mean for tank detachments is you want all the primary guns probably to be the same, or at least the same target focus - e.g. pick shooting at armour or infantry and stick to it. then maybe look at secondary weapons to have at least some point defence.

e.g. a Predator Squadron, say three tanks, if going for anti armour I think the las cannon turrets are a must, and the same for the sponsons on say two of the three, then the third gets heavy bolters to at least have some point defence (or its going to need an escort)

if going anti infantry then all heavy bolters makes sense, not 100% convinced on the autocannon though, think las cannons are still a better bet as the unit is better duel role then.

As for the units not yet released, I'm thinking of the initial release as a chance to get some stuff painted, on a table and to learn the rules, I'm not considering the game "complete" as yet, needs more transport options, scout options etc for both factions

Oh yeah it's not ready by far. But I know I want drop pods and jetbikes ASAP

Just feels weird with BA if it's not got fast elements.

But as there's no quarantee I even get the models this year and game before february thanks to GW's delivery issues no rush.

it is a very odd selection initially

to be honest a pure marine v marine box would have been better, with/without the warhounds and have the SA as a new years drop.

then the SA boxes could have been additional marine stuff and suddenly you have more workable marine forces

and when SA drop they do so in the same way, with a larger unit selection

Then again does every marine player have cash to buy everything at once...

tneva82 wrote:
Then again does every marine player have cash to buy everything at once...

not sure thats bothered GW previously, especially given the tendency to have "optional" stuff thats buy it now or never get it

was more thinking though of a better starter set, all water under the bridge now of course

Looking at some of the photos on Social Media, which I thought initially were deliveries of Legions stock to a store, I will say some definitely do

If anyone is interested, the Mighty Minis store has some plastic order tokens for sale.

https://www.mighty-minis-uk.com/product/order-tokens-8mm-gaming?fbclid=IwAR3vhCnKj9v8FSX2ZuvvL6TqcQLhF-RMiedNSyXkjbkIwXnFp3DCtO4JfDI

leopard wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Then again does every marine player have cash to buy everything at once...

not sure thats bothered GW previously, especially given the tendency to have "optional" stuff thats buy it now or never get it

was more thinking though of a better starter set, all water under the bridge now of course

It bothers them enough they often space out releases...

Their point is getting people buy it all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pacific wrote:
Looking at some of the photos on Social Media, which I thought initially were deliveries of Legions stock to a store, I will say some definitely do

If anyone is interested, the Mighty Minis store has some plastic order tokens for sale.

https://www.mighty-minis-uk.com/product/order-tokens-8mm-gaming?fbclid=IwAR3vhCnKj9v8FSX2ZuvvL6TqcQLhF-RMiedNSyXkjbkIwXnFp3DCtO4JfDI

Well 3d printed but anyway. Looks good enough but doesn't ship to me so can't use it.

Think I'll just do the paint on bases method. Easier than figuring out 3d printing store that ships here And cheaper.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Points also take into account Wider Context of the force a given unit, model or what have you, belongs to.

Especially where Allies are a limited points percentage, and extend to such things as Titans and Knights.

It all adds up and changes what one can and can’t include.

you posted an standard DakkaDakka reply.

No. Almost all units across the board cost the same for Marines/solar, but marines are far superior (infantry, tanks, etc).

On top of that, Marines get free positive Legion rules, meanwhile Solar gets Chain of command (a negative rule).

P.S. the marine misile launchers are ridiculously powerful.

2 dice with "ignores cover" and hitting on a 4+ is going to be pretty good.

nice inside a larger tactical detachment, the stand alone units are nice but will be fire magnets to anyone who sees them.

can see adding two stands to a tactical formation being a very good way to go though

leopard wrote:


so the points for infantry essentially can ignore the save, as both will be in buildings, transports, out of sight of seriously out of luck.. Movement is the same, las-rifles and bolters are pretty similar except at half range (and why they called that [ASSAULT] and not [RAPID FIRE] for sanity is beyond me)

so yes marines cost more, a bit, but the infantry I suspect will end up remarkably similar regardless

Even if you ignore the different save: marines have way better CAF (extremely important stat as condenses attack and defense in HtH), higher Morale (extremely important too) + positive Legion rules, while Solar get negative faction rule.

SU-152 wrote:

leopard wrote:


so the points for infantry essentially can ignore the save, as both will be in buildings, transports, out of sight of seriously out of luck.. Movement is the same, las-rifles and bolters are pretty similar except at half range (and why they called that [ASSAULT] and not [RAPID FIRE] for sanity is beyond me)

so yes marines cost more, a bit, but the infantry I suspect will end up remarkably similar regardless

Even if you ignore the different save: marines have way better CAF (extremely important stat as condenses attack and defense in HtH), higher Morale (extremely important too) + positive Legion rules, while Solar get negative faction rule.

yes, however they have to actually assault for that to matter, and quite a few will be dead before they do, or should be. morale helps without a doubt and some of the faction rules are good, some less so

need to get models on the table and see how it shakes out

Sa have pretty mean melee units though. Yeah caf 2-4 nice. Rend with 1 blip lower caf better though. Sprinkling those will make sa units hell of a pain in assault

its actually interesting when you see the probabilities, a 2d6 roll means +/- 1 actually matters, but the change between +4 and say +5 is minor.

the way units can gang up on smaller is also interesting, getting 2d6+0 for one and 3d6+0 for the second can overcome a base 2d6+2 etc

again needs to see how it shakes out but I think SA units if they get into combat in size will be quite nasty

They already uploaded an errate here which answers a few questions.
In short:

Engine Killer also works against vehicles now, not just super heavy vehicles so no baneblade dies but malcador lives.
The warp trait only gives you one dice against Knights and Titans now instead of as many as they have wounds left, very nice they responded this fast on that.
Storm Eagles no longer have the Tempest rockets they stole from the Fire raptors

The correct Aerial Force compulsory slots are from the physical book so two core slots in compulsory, the digital and cards had one core and one vanguard instead which is wrong according to the card errate. But it doesn't specify about the optional detachments which are one core and one vanguard in the physical book and two core in the digital. No idea how its on the cards but since the physical was correct for the compulsory ones its likely to be one core and one vanguard for the optional ones too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quick question for anyone who bought SM infantry box since nobody seems to be doing an unboxing of those. Do they have any decals inside and if so is it the same sheet as the one in the starter?
Because the starter set decal sheet only has banner decals for four legions/cohorts and the vehicle transfer sheet doesn't have any banners. And it would be sad to not get any banners for the other legions/cohorts

leopard wrote:
its actually interesting when you see the probabilities, a 2d6 roll means +/- 1 actually matters, but the change between +4 and say +5 is minor.

the way units can gang up on smaller is also interesting, getting 2d6+0 for one and 3d6+0 for the second can overcome a base 2d6+2 etc

again needs to see how it shakes out but I think SA units if they get into combat in size will be quite nasty

My experience of playing a lot of Guard through 2nd edition and then later NetEpic is that you don't want to end up in close combat with your generic guardsmen the doubling-up does have a massive impact with the extra dice, but the problem is a canny player will leave that charging unit to move until last and make sure it is 1-1 match-ups. Especially when you quite often have terrain and other factors which mean you can't have an ideal 'on paper' result, and that favours the small/elite units. They lost that first combat, fail a morale test and then that's it..

I see they have added a new rule in this game though where Guard units can support each other when ranked up, which should change things a bit especially if they are garrisoned in buildings.

So warp missile already got nerfed, great!

As for the Aerial formation, might have been another case where whoever designed the formations wasn't aware that vnaguard detachments wouldn't get rules in the core book.. We'll know for sure when vanguard detachments get models and rules, if the formation gets changed back, this was indeed the case


Automatically Appended Next Post:
was this already posted:

https://legionbuilder.app/

Wondering if the last minute edit was because the release schedule was being changed and they wanted to go with "no models = no rules"?

Was just drafting some lists and man, it's not easy getting even 1000 points worth of Astartes from the currently available models! You need to max out almost every slot in the formation, including all optional ones..

As such, I feel like the second LI model wave cannot be far really. We are lacking a lot of flavour ATM, almost feels like HH2 launch all over again..

 tauist wrote:
Was just drafting some lists and man, it's not easy getting even 1000 points worth of Astartes from the currently available models! You need to max out almost every slot in the formation, including all optional ones..

As such, I feel like the second LI model wave cannot be far really. We are lacking a lot of flavour ATM, almost feels like HH2 launch all over again..

Hopefully jan-march sometime. Till then you likely need some kratos and an armoured formations for breathing room on detachment sizes.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 tauist wrote:
Was just drafting some lists and man, it's not easy getting even 1000 points worth of Astartes from the currently available models! You need to max out almost every slot in the formation, including all optional ones..

As such, I feel like the second LI model wave cannot be far really. We are lacking a lot of flavour ATM, almost feels like HH2 launch all over again..

Hopefully jan-march sometime. Till then you likely need some kratos and an armoured formations for breathing room on detachment sizes.

I haven't started collecting an army just yet, have only bought the digital rules and one Astartes infantry kit to get a feel for the scale and the new models. I want to start with Adeptus Titanicus first, since that is already considered a mature game, and it comes with stuff that is easier to slot into "proper" LI games than just the two warhounds that come in the LI starter. Was just thinking GW needs to come out with more stuff soon, every list will basically be very samey until they do.

But yeh, a box of Kratos is a solid chunk of points for an Astartes player.