Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello again everyone, I've recently fount another store in my state and I'm sort of concerned about my previous store because it seems they'll be hosting more tournaments. While I have no ill will against such events and I'm happy it draws in more players, I feel it does make my gaming store's scene more crowded and toxic for me to play more casual 1v1 or 2v2 games. I worry everyone is going to start meta-chasing and being 'that guy' in order to constantly hype up their lists. Even worse, they may force me to have to make my Ork and Chaos Daemon's more competitive (like with certain list builds that take away the fun and fluff or me adding models I don't really care for in particular in order to just be competitive)


I'm naturally not a competitive person at heart. At least, not when it stifles my overall fun and playing experience. However, it seems GW wants to really push competitive play and I feel it pushes me away from some of my hobby store groups. What should I do?


(Note: I'm not thinking of not leaving my store in question, mostly because they got good deals and a lot of what I want. But the sad part is the group there already shun other games like Bloodbowl, AOS, Kill Team, and anything that's not main brand 40k. I love 40k, but I also love relaxing and coming in on Saturdays to sit back and have a casual match or two. I'm an Ork and Chaos Daemons player at heart, I prefer fun hobbling and fluff over meta chasing tournaments.)

OK.

I’m not going to tell you your concerns are invalid. Everyone has their preferred way to play after all.

But? Any venue’s preferred approach will change over time.

This is more a conversation you need to have with the Store Owner. Only they have the power and right to dictate and enforce store rules.

But you need to manage your own expectations here. Any shop is a business first and foremost. If (and it is an If!) the Tournament Crowd are bringing the money in? Then they’re bringing the money in.

Talk with the owner. See if there’s more you can do too. If you’re concerned about hyper competitive play overriding everything else? Why not see if you can run a Crusade Campaign, tied to an ongoing narrative? Sure it’s a bit more effort, but there’s plenty of online resources for plot hooks and tips on herding the cats that will be your players.

I’m sorry if this sounds trite and dismissive. It’s not meant to be. But you’ve identified a potential problem. Now you need to think of possible solutions - and compromises.

Although people show up for 40k tournaments it doesn't mean that's the only format/game they'll play. I'd look at this as more of an opportunity to meet more gamers, and chances are some of them will be down to play more casual games or even *gasp* other syatems!

Personally, I enjoy a tourney scene. But I'll meet other players wherever they're at in terms of competetive-casual. And I'll thow down for Necromunda on occasion. Locally Battletech has gained some popularity too, and I might dip into that as well.

Talk with the people who play there and figure out the sorts of playstyle and goal of their games. Its usually not too hard to figure out if somebody is a mostly tournament player, narrative focused, creative/theme focused, casual, new player, etc. Usually the ones who are rather cagy with this sort of information tend to be more of the "that guy" player.

Back in 7th, I found it super useful to be upfront with the sort of game experience your looking to have so you can find people who are going to have similar expectations or at the very least you both can field armies that are going to be relatively comparable in terms of effective power. I tended to have multiple armies at the ready to field based on the sort of game my opponent was looking to play (I wasn't going to break out the Tau vs little Timmy's Christmas Gift Space Marines nor did I want to use my Inq + Scions army vs Tryhard Mc Netlist).

There's a lot of "I feel, I worry, it may"... has anything actually happened, yet?
Sounds like an opportunity to change the course, tournaments don’t exclude narrative/ casual players. I'd suggest to have a look what's actually going on at these tournaments and see if there are players that show up with laid back lists or just have relaxed attitudes. See if you can have more casual games with them.

I've seen tournaments before where there was a real focus on putting together a thematic list over a meta-chaser, to the extent where you'd be docked points for taking "obvious TFG lists". Perhaps suggest one of those to the store?

And who is going to decide who is the meta TFG meta chaser? Is someone a meta chaser if GW gave his army only one way to play ? What if they bought their terminator DW army 20 years ago and have been playing it, bad or good, ever since. What if someone started a DG army for the zombi theme and suddenly the codex pops out and zombis are the DG meta? Are all of those people suppose to spend hundrades of dollars, just because someone else decides that their list is meta.

And also who decides what ever the lists of the deciders are casual, meta or TFG?

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
There's a lot of "I feel, I worry, it may"... has anything actually happened, yet?
Sounds like an opportunity to change the course, tournaments don’t exclude narrative/ casual players. I'd suggest to have a look what's actually going on at these tournaments and see if there are players that show up with laid back lists or just have relaxed attitudes. See if you can have more casual games with them.

This. Anxiety gets the best of the best of us.

Tournament players, contrary to what Dakka often says, aren't bad people or bad gamers. Just chat with them and I'm sure you'll find some like-minded players among their ranks.

try to suggest events

suggest themed scenarios that work the way you want to play and see if others will try it

one my old club tried was small games, you bring an army, but you won't be using it so the incentive to netlist vanishes

indeed the incentive is to come up with the most off the wall combinations you can

You need to fight the system from within: Become the terrain guy at the store!

If the store doesn't have a lot of terrain, offer to make the terrain for them and loan/donate the terrain.

Make every piece different. Make none of them L-shaped.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Tournament players, contrary to what Dakka often says, aren't bad people or bad gamers. Just chat with them and I'm sure you'll find some like-minded players among their ranks.

Ok, but they are not fun to play against: we don't have a ruleset that allows them to be.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Tournament players, contrary to what Dakka often says, aren't bad people or bad gamers. Just chat with them and I'm sure you'll find some like-minded players among their ranks.

This isn't about being bad people or bad gamers.

If you have a local scene where most of the players treat every game outside of a tournament like it's a practice game for a tournament, then that's going to begin to get on your nerves if you don't like tournaments.

 CynosureEldar wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Tournament players, contrary to what Dakka often says, aren't bad people or bad gamers. Just chat with them and I'm sure you'll find some like-minded players among their ranks.

Ok, but they are not fun to play against: we don't have a ruleset that allows them to be.

...
What? I legitimately don't understand what you're trying to say.

If a tournament player does nothing but cutthroat, super-optimized, crush your foe and hear their lamentations games, sure.
But if a tournament player also does casual gaming, or narrative scenarios, or anything at all besides just hardcore tournament games... Why would they be an issue?

Especially if they're local tournaments-work with the store's employees to make sure the tournaments are good for everyone.

Speaking from experience, the local crowd getting excited about tournament play and defaulting a lot of their games to basically be tournament practice is a thing.

However, that doesn't mean that you have to get used to every game being a tournament prep game. If competitive, tournament-style games aren't your jam, just make it clear that you're looking for a more casual game. Bonus points for making that clear if you arrange games before arriving at the store over social media. You'll find that there are plenty of people who share your preferences. You'll also find that at least some of the "tournament players" will be happy for a change of pace and an excuse to bust out those units they've kept shelved because they aren't optimal enough for their competitive lists.

Basically, we just have to face the awkwardness of talking to people (yuck) pre-game and negotiating the type of experience we're looking for. And if someone is still busting out a hardcore list after you've communicated that's not what you're into, just politely decline games with them in the future. Or reiterate that you want to face something a bit less gnarly in your next game.

I know. Communicating like adults. Isn't it just the worst?

Karol wrote:
And who is going to decide who is the meta TFG meta chaser? Is someone a meta chaser if GW gave his army only one way to play ? What if they bought their terminator DW army 20 years ago and have been playing it, bad or good, ever since. What if someone started a DG army for the zombi theme and suddenly the codex pops out and zombis are the DG meta? Are all of those people suppose to spend hundrades of dollars, just because someone else decides that their list is meta.

And also who decides what ever the lists of the deciders are casual, meta or TFG?

Clearly if they have a 20 year old army they are not meta-chasers - they're the very opposite. They're the 'stopped clock is right twice a day' brigade.

Crispy78 wrote:

Karol wrote:
And who is going to decide who is the meta TFG meta chaser? Is someone a meta chaser if GW gave his army only one way to play ? What if they bought their terminator DW army 20 years ago and have been playing it, bad or good, ever since. What if someone started a DG army for the zombi theme and suddenly the codex pops out and zombis are the DG meta? Are all of those people suppose to spend hundrades of dollars, just because someone else decides that their list is meta.

And also who decides what ever the lists of the deciders are casual, meta or TFG?

Clearly if they have a 20 year old army they are not meta-chasers - they're the very opposite. They're the 'stopped clock is right twice a day' brigade.

The worst Kind of offender, especially if they have multiple forces!

Not Online!!! wrote:

Crispy78 wrote:

Karol wrote:
And who is going to decide who is the meta TFG meta chaser? Is someone a meta chaser if GW gave his army only one way to play ? What if they bought their terminator DW army 20 years ago and have been playing it, bad or good, ever since. What if someone started a DG army for the zombi theme and suddenly the codex pops out and zombis are the DG meta? Are all of those people suppose to spend hundrades of dollars, just because someone else decides that their list is meta.

And also who decides what ever the lists of the deciders are casual, meta or TFG?

Clearly if they have a 20 year old army they are not meta-chasers - they're the very opposite. They're the 'stopped clock is right twice a day' brigade.

The worst Kind of offender, especially if they have multiple forces!

Damn them and their long-standing dedication to the hobby!

All you can do in a case like this is try to find some like-minded people to do things other than tournament style games. Best case you get a lot, worst case you get your own small group.

Once a local meta starts to lean into comp play it's basically over for anything else. Seen it plenty of times over the years. That's why the pejorative word used for this is "cancer": because once it grows it becomes terminal or requires harming the host (ie. The game store /community) if it's able to be removed at all.

Infiltrate, find like minded people, and make a clique... it doesn't sound appealing, but it's the only way to play games the way you enjoy if the local scene plays a way you do not find attractive.

In my area we've got 6 LGS that do tabletop games (not just 40k). Every single one has devolved into "netdeck", meta chasing, tournament practice mindset. So my friends and I about 10 years or so ago, decided to take our gaming out of the LGS scene and to our garages. Best hobby decision we've ever made.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Basically, we just have to face the awkwardness of talking to people (yuck) pre-game and negotiating the type of experience we're looking for. And if someone is still busting out a hardcore list after you've communicated that's not what you're into, just politely decline games with them in the future. Or reiterate that you want to face something a bit less gnarly in your next game.

I know. Communicating like adults. Isn't it just the worst?

This is the truth. A good scene rarely comes about completely "organically". Even those that seem effortless usually have some folks behind the scene making it happen. If you want a certain type of game you have to ask -and possibly advertise- for it. If you want a certain type of scene or campaign you will probably have to organize it.

In my case has meant start your own group, but if you've got an active store, get on the store's socials and analog bulletin board if it exists. Try asking the owner who might be interested. There's a good chance that your preferred game or playstyle has players you just aren't seeing.

Good Luck! Whatever you end up doing I think that if you go about it intentionally and put in the effort to make it happen, there's a good chance it will be more fun and more longer lasting than a scene that you just wait for and hope will develop on it's own.

You need to be pro-active and try to get a group of likeminded players together to play the sort of 40k you want to play. There's no reason two groups of players with different outlooks on the game can't play at the same store, and you also then get the benefit of having players from both groups potentially playing each other to expand your potential player pool.

Bear in mind, it could be the case that the players in your area are genuinely only interested in competitive tournament-style 40k, in which case you're just out of luck. It'll likely take some good organisation from non-tournament players to keep a group like that going, because you don't have the convenience of the ready-made tournament format to make setting up games and finding opponents easy.

 CynosureEldar wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Tournament players, contrary to what Dakka often says, aren't bad people or bad gamers. Just chat with them and I'm sure you'll find some like-minded players among their ranks.

Ok, but they are not fun to play against: we don't have a ruleset that allows them to be.

Then, and I'm going to say this slowly for those who need a bit of extra time to process things, get to know them and see if any of them are open to other forms of play. Maybe they will be, maybe they won't be but premature panic that you'll never get another "good" game of 40k again now is stupid.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Tournament players, contrary to what Dakka often says, aren't bad people or bad gamers. Just chat with them and I'm sure you'll find some like-minded players among their ranks.

This isn't about being bad people or bad gamers.

If you have a local scene where most of the players treat every game outside of a tournament like it's a practice game for a tournament, then that's going to begin to get on your nerves if you don't like tournaments.

Hence my suggestion was to get to know them and find like-minded gamers among them. Not every player who plays in tournaments is a grinder. Some just know it's an easy way to get games and are willing to play other kinds of 40k.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You need to fight the system from within: Become the terrain guy at the store!

If the store doesn't have a lot of terrain, offer to make the terrain for them and loan/donate the terrain.

Make every piece different. Make none of them L-shaped.

This is really great advice, though I'd not avoid the L-shapes. One the things I often see causing strife is really cool terrain that someone obviously put a lot of effort into that just isn't fun to play with. This stuff drives the competitive crowd further into their rut when they have bad game experiences caused by terrain that prioritizes form over function. Part of the terrain guy challenge is designing terrain that enhances the game for all players. Design things with the terrain rules in mind to make something the bridges both sides together.

easy way with terrain is make multiple bits that if someone insists on arranging as an "L" still looks decent, but also has other options.

also not every item of terrain needs to be a "ruin"

Thing is, if it isn't an L shaped ruin, it may as well not be on the table, considering how the game looks right now. Playing armies with low or no damage ability without heavy "L" terrain saturation instantly drops to a level of not worth bringing the army to the store. While some armies, the best one, suddenly become even more efficient and a lot of the games turn in to "I got turn 1, so I won".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wyldhunt wrote:


Basically, we just have to face the awkwardness of talking to people (yuck) pre-game and negotiating the type of experience we're looking for. And if someone is still busting out a hardcore list after you've communicated that's not what you're into, just politely decline games with them in the future. Or reiterate that you want to face something a bit less gnarly in your next game.

I know. Communicating like adults. Isn't it just the worst?

Talk or not, the problem is the terms. One person will claim that not playing a highlander list, from a weak faction, is playing a WAAC list. On the flip side someone who plays eldar often claims having a casual list, which somehow always ends up with their opponents requiering a tournament style list to have a game of any sorts to beging with. Then there is people having one army of 2000pts, armies with limited unit options and/or pre build by GW. How is a knight, custodes or GK player suppose to not have a "tournament" and a working list at the same time? At the same time an eldar player can bring a list of 1500pts then slap 500pts of random stuff, or even forget 500pts of reserves, and he is going to be punching down against everything, but strickt GT build lists. At some point it starts to boil down to stuff like, to have a balanced game you need to play a mirror, or 3 top or 3 bottom or 3 mid lists and only play specific lists, which again requiers a large collection.

Karol wrote:
Thing is, if it isn't an L shaped ruin, it may as well not be on the table, considering how the game looks right now.

That's not even slightly true.

Jaredthefox92 wrote:
Hello again everyone, I've recently fount another store in my state and I'm sort of concerned about my previous store because it seems they'll be hosting more tournaments. While I have no ill will against such events and I'm happy it draws in more players, I feel it does make my gaming store's scene more crowded and toxic for me to play more casual 1v1 or 2v2 games. I worry everyone is going to start meta-chasing and being 'that guy' in order to constantly hype up their lists. Even worse, they may force me to have to make my Ork and Chaos Daemon's more competitive (like with certain list builds that take away the fun and fluff or me adding models I don't really care for in particular in order to just be competitive)


I'm naturally not a competitive person at heart. At least, not when it stifles my overall fun and playing experience. However, it seems GW wants to really push competitive play and I feel it pushes me away from some of my hobby store groups. What should I do?


(Note: I'm not thinking of not leaving my store in question, mostly because they got good deals and a lot of what I want. But the sad part is the group there already shun other games like Bloodbowl, AOS, Kill Team, and anything that's not main brand 40k. I love 40k, but I also love relaxing and coming in on Saturdays to sit back and have a casual match or two. I'm an Ork and Chaos Daemons player at heart, I prefer fun hobbling and fluff over meta chasing tournaments.)

That majority of people who play in tournaments do so as a guaranteed way to get 3 games in more than anything else. Not saying tournament don't EVER cause negative externalities in a local community, but most of the time they just end up being a day hanging out playing games with guys you know.

This happened to me we used to have a really fun group, run campaigns zombie missions, you know fun stuff. After 7th my local meta started to veer hard into tournament. Resulting in now I can't even use a 6x4 table or terrain that isn't exclusively L shaped ruins. It turns out all the fun people that used to be in the 40K group transitioned to AoS because of 2-3 sweaty/WAAC folks. The local meta dwindled and over the course of a few years crushed any desire I had to even ask for a game in group chat. Because then you'd have to dodge the sweaties to find someone who's ego isn't riding on a toy soldiers game. Suffice it to say I quit 40K, packed up my beautifully painted armies and am now learning AoS. So yes tourney folks can absolutely destroy a healthy fun gaming community. The worst part is, they don't notice they're doing it, they're just following GWs breadcrumbs.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Karol wrote:
Thing is, if it isn't an L shaped ruin, it may as well not be on the table, considering how the game looks right now.

That's not even slightly true.

not only is it not even remotely true, but misinformation like this is why everyone thinks it.