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How do!

An odd thought, brought on by actually painting my models, and having a 10 man squad of Cataphractii armed with dual lightning claws. And knowledge of so far as I’m aware, pretty consistent background that wielding lightning claws, singular or paired, requires specific training.

And, that kind of makes sense. Whether articulated fingers or mounted to the back of your gauntlet, you’re still wandering around with eight blades you can’t sheathe. And being power weapons, could, if you’re not proper careful do you as much of a mischief as you hope to do to the foe.

I’m no martial artists myself. Indeed I’m probably closer to being a marshmallow. And so I ask to pick the brains of other, ideally wiser Dakkanauts, whether there is an existing martial art which might be at least a solid base for “successfully wielding lightning claws without chopping any part of yourself off”?

Not something I am particularly knowledgeable in, but there are some Indian weapons of a similar format. Punch daggers and pata swords, for example.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pata_(sword)

So I'd hazard an Indian martial art of some kind.

The main pop culture reference is, I suspect, Wolverine.

Except Wolverine is Wolverine, so any whoopsadoodle would be rapidly healed, including “no, wait, pretty sure I needed that leg and both my lungs”.

Punch Daggers and Pata Swords are still singular blades. But reading the article (which I’ll share below as Haighus’ link didn’t work for me) Pata could be dual wielded. Which gives us at least a starting point for further interwebular research!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pata_(sword)


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No. Wait, I see what wrong with the link now, the end bracket doesn’t register as part of the link!

The history of lightning claws being a development of power fists to give terminator a blender attachment for use at close quarters against genestealers suggests that any punchy based martial art would be pretty helpful. I also don't see how it's much more dangerous to the user than any power weapon. Having had my own sword bounce off an opponents unexpectedly thrust weapon and catching ,myself in the forehead makes me think that you can't really foolproof such things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
losing the ability to use the wrist joint to maneuver a blade around naturally limits the ways in which lightning claws could be used, but they developed out ofmpower fists that don't really have a wrist joint.

I must admit of all the 40K weapons with their Spikes everywhere to stab yourself the lightning Claw never struck me as particularly dangerous to the bearer. Certainly much less so than the flails and morning Stars we see repeatedly in 40K of which it is currently very doubtful they've ever been used in real life wars.
To turn that grumpy post into something constructive, you say wolverine, I say predator. Predators (the 3rd movie) has a nice fighting scene between a predator and someone armed with a katana.
Google research also led me to turkana finger Knives, which is pretty much unrelated to your question but was a very interesting find for me

Flails/morning stars are definitely a real weapon that was used historically, but the modern pop culture version (incl. 40k versions) are not very accurate.

The key feature of a real flail is that the flappy bit on the end of the chain or hinge shouldn't be long enough to reach where you hold it, making it safe to use. Most modern designs miss this important feature and therefore are as big a risk to the user as their opponents.

Flails in particular were quite common in parts of central Europe. The Czechs were very partial to them during the Hussite wars.

 Haighus wrote:
Flails/morning stars are definitely a real weapon that was used historically, but the modern pop culture version (incl. 40k versions) are not very accurate.

The key feature of a real flail is that the flappy bit on the end of the chain or hinge shouldn't be long enough to reach where you hold it, making it safe to use. Most modern designs miss this important feature and therefore are as big a risk to the user as their opponents.

Flails in particular were quite common in parts of central Europe. The Czechs were very partial to them during the Hussite wars.

Flails yes, about morning Stars I've read several sources recently that say they're probably/possibly an invention from after the middle ages and never saw battle. Maybe they were used for tournaments/duels. Mauls and maces were used, but morning Stars probably not.
But, I'm not an expert myself so if you can give me something to read up I'll take it

Not really. Anything longer than a knife in each hand and you'll struggle to hit with enough force to do damage, you'll be more easily disarmed and more vulnerable to self inflicted injuries due to fatigue and control. I used to do a lot of weapons training as a teenager, and there is a good reason why paired weapons tend to either be non edged entirely, or just a sharp point with no cutting edge.

Lighting claws would be massively impractical also due to the difficulty turning the cutting edges to the right direction; you'd basically be swiping away like a pair of windmills.

Asymmetric paired weapons has been common historically for dueling contexts and has commonly included edged weapons (sword and dagger). I am aware of at least three historical traditions that involved paired swords- the Japanese Miyamoto school, there is an Italian tradition of paired full rapiers, and India has at least one tradition too (I think actually using the pata above). 2/3 of these used primarily-cutting swords and all three used sharp-edged swords. Dual wielding anything other than with a shield isn't usually found on battlefields because it provides no defense against ranged attacks and isn't as useful as a polearm against armour (which is also the context that allows a shield to be dropped). So those traditions above are mainly duelling traditions and do seem to be unusually hard to become proficient in, but are definitely viable and effective styles.

Terminators are in a rather unique position though, in which they have exceptional protection but seem to lack the mobility to wield polearms in both hands (only the Dark Angels halberd comes to mind for Indomitus pattern). That leaves paired single-handed weapons as a more viable option.

I think the extra blades is reasonable as a function of strength versus geometry. Normally humans only lose for increasing the number of blades- more weight and decreased pressure per hit. However a Terminator can handle much more weight and also cannot easily just have very long single blades, because they still have to fit down corridors in close confines. In addition the blades being powered makes them much more capable of causing damage even from grazing hits.

Of course, this is all rationalisation for what was clearly originally rule of cool

We do have a couple of terminators using two-handed weapons other than the mentioned Dark Angels, though. Death Guard uses scythes, flails and axes, EC use spears IIRC, librarians and sorcerors use staffs, it doesn't seem to be a problem of mobility to bear these things. In the end I agree it's rule of cool as I don’t think we have any fluff indication of terminators fighting better with one weapon or the other. They just kill whatever they want with either weapon , it's just the game rules that give you some different stats (but not always).

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
We do have a couple of terminators using two-handed weapons other than the mentioned Dark Angels, though. Death Guard uses scythes, flails and axes, EC use spears IIRC, librarians and sorcerors use staffs, it doesn't seem to be a problem of mobility to bear these things. In the end I agree it's rule of cool as I don’t think we have any fluff indication of terminators fighting better with one weapon or the other. They just kill whatever they want with either weapon , it's just the game rules that give you some different stats (but not always).

Most of those wear Tartaros pattern though, which is lorewise the most mobile Terminator pattern (and pretty much a straight upgrade over Indomitus). The Grey Knights do to but they are again using a distinct pattern of Terminator armour. I did forget about 40k Death Guard, they have the flail you mention on the Indomitus Terminators and the scythe on Typhus. Otherwise the two-handed weapons are all on Cataphractii models. They definitely seem to be the biggest outliers in 40k, but maybe they just feel able to tank a hit whilst making a ponderous swing.

I can't recall a Terminator librarian using their staff two-handed.

This suggests polearms are not favoured for some reason, they are rare for most Marines in Terminator armour.

Pole arms were useful in history so the user could reach out to distant targets. Stormbolters seem to do quite well in that role, so less of a need I suppose.

Ah, I didn't get your focus on indomitus armour. Personally I would have imagined any librarian/Sorceror with an empty hand to use his staff two-handed in CC, but we don’t seem to have a model that actually does that?
I'd say the reasoning for a lack of two handed weapons might be a) it's just very helpful to have a storm-/combibolter/ other ranged weapons with you or b) lightning claws apparently offset the slow movement of terminator armour or c) shield and hammer rules and if you can wield that hammer with 1 hand which weapon would ever need 2?

I think we used to have a Librarian in power armour using his staff two-handed, but not one in Terminator Armour.

Two words.

Njal Stormcaller.

https://www.warhammer.com/en-GB/shop/Space-Wolves-Njal-Stormcaller-Terminator-Armour

Looking at the most recent Imperial models, I'd say the key techniques are probably going to be:

* power weapon version of the punch blade
* parrying or disarming power swords by catch-and-twist
with sweeping attacks pretty much incidental.

I thought the common back of the hand lightning claws were sheathable. Certainly I could see certain patterns being so. Obviously the ones where the claws are built into the fingers are not sheathable.


In terms of real world martial arts, punch daggers are a real weapon. Often as a side arm to a sword, but if you combined that with general boxing you could have a practical combat martial art.

Its certainly not going to be highly sophisticated like swords or polearm techniques. And really that is fine.

Really, it shouldn't be a weapon that requires special training more than others. Its a gauntlet with stabby bits off the back side. If anything, it should be a very simple weapon to use outside of maybe some training of how to spar against someone using a sword or polearm.

Wolverine is interesting as he doesn't really represent a martial art in half of his fighting style. He fights fairly animalistically, in a manner consistent with very dangerous claws on the end of your hands - swipes like a bear/tiger and opens his body up to do so which is generally avoided in most martial arts as much as possible... Yet still punches, which goes onto the second aspect of his fighting style that has fairly traditional roots.

Knowing my martial arts, in the sense of I can watch and identify different martial arts being used, not actually myself being proficient in them (thank a genuinely nuts but well-versed MMA instructor for that education) I would guess a modified filipino/indonesian style would be a good starting point - they have loads of interesting and fairly unique weapons tailored to their dirty boxing style.

How that would work in Terminator armour, I would have no clue other than to say watch the video from the past week of watching Eddie hall fight two dudes in an MMA fight and basically that, but with huge power knives on the end of his fists. A modified Indonesian style could work in general power armour with lighting claws I would guess though.

My main guess would be though, they would create their own martial art to make them work.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I thought the common back of the hand lightning claws were sheathable. Certainly I could see certain patterns being so. Obviously the ones where the claws are built into the fingers are not sheathable.


In terms of real world martial arts, punch daggers are a real weapon. Often as a side arm to a sword, but if you combined that with general boxing you could have a practical combat martial art.

Its certainly not going to be highly sophisticated like swords or polearm techniques. And really that is fine.

Really, it shouldn't be a weapon that requires special training more than others. Its a gauntlet with stabby bits off the back side. If anything, it should be a very simple weapon to use outside of maybe some training of how to spar against someone using a sword or polearm.

It’s pretty long, powered blades though. So even a mild slip could cause serious damage to you or a friendly. The length along I suspect would require a different discipline to punch daggers.

Fun fact? Hugh Jackman keeps “stabbing” himself in the legs when filming Wolverine fight scenes. Just a moment’s forgetfulness, and you soon get a prod of remembrance.

But Lightning Claws are also be described as being used to parry enemy attacks. Plus you’ve your squad mates to be aware of in the general melee.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I thought the common back of the hand lightning claws were sheathable. Certainly I could see certain patterns being so. Obviously the ones where the claws are built into the fingers are not sheathable.


In terms of real world martial arts, punch daggers are a real weapon. Often as a side arm to a sword, but if you combined that with general boxing you could have a practical combat martial art.

Its certainly not going to be highly sophisticated like swords or polearm techniques. And really that is fine.

Really, it shouldn't be a weapon that requires special training more than others. Its a gauntlet with stabby bits off the back side. If anything, it should be a very simple weapon to use outside of maybe some training of how to spar against someone using a sword or polearm.

It’s pretty long, powered blades though. So even a mild slip could cause serious damage to you or a friendly. The length along I suspect would require a different discipline to punch daggers.

Fun fact? Hugh Jackman keeps “stabbing” himself in the legs when filming Wolverine fight scenes. Just a moment’s forgetfulness, and you soon get a prod of remembrance.

But Lightning Claws are also be described as being used to parry enemy attacks. Plus you’ve your squad mates to be aware of in the general melee.

Not dramatically different to the issues of holding a pair of swords though. Very easy to hit your squadmates with those too if you aren't trained.

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Wolverine is interesting as he doesn't really represent a martial art in half of his fighting style. He fights fairly animalistically, in a manner consistent with very dangerous claws on the end of your hands - swipes like a bear/tiger and opens his body up to do so which is generally avoided in most martial arts as much as possible...

It works for Wolverine though. His healing factor and adamatium skeleton just shrugs off injury. All he really needs to do is let the claws do as much damage as possible as quickly as possible.
Which might work similarly for 40K Marines. Trust in the power/terminator armour and enhanced physiology to absorb the punches while the claws shred anyone foolish enough to try to come close enough to punch you.

That’s an interesting point. Whilst I doubt it would go quite so far as simply hoping to tank enemy blows to see you through, any combat technique employed would factor that in, possibly including riskier positions and moves, relatively safe in the knowledge most foes can’t properly press any such advantage.

Well, real armoured fencing does factor in that most blows are not a threat through plate armour (somewhat dependent on the weapon being faced). So a Marine fighting against, say, a chainsword will know they can rely on their armour in most areas and will focus on protecting vulnerable points.

However, Marines will definitely train combat skills for when they face foes with power weapon equivalents that can threaten them even through armour.

Oh, Marines do have the advantage that, in extremis, they can deliberately take a severe hit that would kill an ordinary human but is survivable for a Marine in order to trap a weapon and disarm the foe. Never ideal, but valid against something like a skilled Eldar combatant. This works much better on thrusts. Insert something about cuts vs thrusts and a centuries old debate here...

So there were "Arming swords" or Dueling blades used in the medevil times, that were basically a dueling arm Armor piece, with a blade attached as like a fist? These were fairly uncommon, and the closest thing I can think of. No one really ever used claws, as they would be hilariously impractical and worse, violate the established art of fencing at the time.

https://a.co/d/a6xgWTk - The art of sword fighting

You cannot "control" you opponent wearing claws or an "attached" weapon. You are not flexible and able to change to meet the situation.

If you are wearing terminator armour, I’m not super clear on what sticking your blades in the way is going to help much more with, even taking into account the power fields. May as well just not bother blocking and just go on a blending spree

Given you’ll almost certainly be outnumbered, I suspect a lot of your combat technique is how to keep multiple opponents off balance, preventing them from effectively using sheer numbers against you.

There’s an ancient pencil drawing in the original Space Hulk which shows a Terminator clearly struggling to get a Genestealer off its back, for instance.

Now sure, a chunk of that is squad tactics and combat harmony or whatever you call it. But it would still surely pay to account for your individual weakness when creating a combat technique, so your mates have to spend less, ideally no, time scraping goons off those hard to reach areas?

And so your Defensive Pattern might be akin to windmilling those naughty blades, making it all but impossible for the foe to approach safely, and how to build strikes into such a pattern of movement as and when opportunity presents? Especially given how fast, even clad in Terminator armour, a Marine’s reactions and reflexes are.

Add in the general Astartes approach seems to be “make as glorious a mess as possible in as short a time as possible and really make your foe rue the day”, and perhaps controlled windmilling is the order of the day?

I honestly think classic boxing is how you would use the blades.

The basic stance would be both gauntlets raised with palms towards your face. You can then use the blades to block/catch incoming strikes and follow up with jabs with the opposite claw. Alternately, you can do large sweeps or rotate your wrists to throw solid punches in.

Depending on the enemy you are fighting, you can be more or less defensive with your attacks as appropriate.

For silly sci-fi weaponry, I don't think lightning claws would actually be all that bad.

So looked into this from a Japanese MA perspective.

Essentially, any weapon that was not a Samurai blade (whether No Dachi, Katana, Wakizashi, or Tanto) would have been regarded as a ninja weapon.

And yes, there are some ninja weapons that are related to lightning claws. The first are called Shuko; they have four curved spikes protruding from the palm. Like many Ninja weapons, they were tools- originally used for picking up boxes. Ninja used them for both climbing and fighting.

The other is called the Tekko Kagi. One source said these evolved from farming tools used to scythe grains, and that passes the sniff test. Another source identifies the Tekko Kagi with a group of wepons known as Tekko... and the etymology here obviously checks out.

But Tekko as a class of weapons functioned primarily by increasing the mass of the hand; Yawara sticks are cited as the oldest of the Tekko, suggesting that other Tekko evolved from them... And Yawara sticks had no blades, so if true, it puts the boots to the theory that Tekko Kagi evolved from scything tools.

Funny enough, I have been trained with Yawara sticks- I used to know two kata that used them, but I've long since forgotten them (I think I was 11 or 12 when I learned these katas). I do remember a few of the defense techniques, which mostly involve using the sticks to strike against pressure points to escape grapples. I digress.

Ninja were not as common as Samurai, who deployed as full armies, and while there would have been "underground" dojos, they would be small enough to fly under the radar of the Samurai. It's hard to know whether a particular art for Tekko Kagi evolved and was taught frequently enough to survive to the present day.

Certainly, arts for Yawara survived. The katas I learned were Okinawan, and connected to Kendo... Specifically, Ed Parker's style. Yawara were ur first weapons, followed by Escrima and the Bo. I never made it further than that, and I don't remember the weapon progression beyond my belt, except that it included both sai and nunchaku at some point in the system.

I imagine a weilder of a pair of lightning claws would fight much like a bear. Just overwhelm the opponent with strength and a bunch of energized blades, wide, repeated swipes as you advance upon them.

The weird thing to me is usually they're modeled as being built upon the chassie of a powerfist, at which point, why not just make a clawed powerfist?

I swear hearing that at some point in the misty depths of editions long past Lightning claws could be used as power fists in addition to their own rules.