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I was asked this in the main thread up in N&R. BrookM asked for people to take it elsewhere, so I am!


I was asked why I'm against a Vespid Kill Team and why I think it's a "waste of a Kill Team slot".

The specific answer?
Tau already have two bespoke Kill Teams that were given model support: Pathfinders and the Kroot Farstalkers.

We're still sitting on AdMech, Tyranids, World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Grey Knights and Talons of the Emperor (off the top of my head) not having the model support for bespoke Kill Teams. For cripe's sake, we got an Inquisitorial Warband before we got a bespoke AdMech KT with model support AND WE JUST HAD AN ENTIRE SEASON THEMED AROUND AN ADMECH LAB!

We just had what is, in my opinion, the most disappointing season of the new setup. We launched with a pair of resculpted 40k units as the Kill Teams(Scouts v Striking Scorpions), followed up with a resculpt(Mandrakes) and upgrade frame (Night Lords), and ended with a new unit(Leagues of Votann Hernkyn hunters) and an add-on frame that should have been its own bespoke kit(Brood Brothers).
Continuing on with something like Vespid(a subfaction within the Tau not known for being utilized as guards or for special operations, etc) just feels like they are interested in using KT to pump out resculpts separate from the faction codex.

At least with something like I had suggested, Scions fighting against a veteran Fire Warrior Kill Team accompanied by a Firesight Marksman there is an attempt to make it feel like a continuation of the idea of smaller scale battles but with higher stakes accompanying them. The idea of a sniper/tactician(Firesight Marksmen fill this role) being the target of specialized forces is a popular trope. Utilizing the Firesight Marksmen and their Sniper Drones as the "new models" of a set while adding an upgrade frame for the Fire Warriors themselves opens you up to also being able to make some interesting and yet archetypal setups. The Bruiser geared more towards short range firefights to serve as a distraction, the Demolitions Operative, the Plucky Second in Command, and the Religious Zealot all would be good mini-roles to throw in there.

Heck, if Fire Warriors aren't your thing then you could even go in for an all-new models KT and have the Firesight Marksman be accompanied by a release of updated Stealth Suits to serve as the "back up" for the Firesight.

At this point though? I consider it a "waste of a Kill Team slot" if it's a retread of an existing unit, jammed into KT. If you think any new models are good models, that's for you.

I'd rather see Kill Team get more bespoke Kill Teams with models, and those models being properly integrated into KT and 40k both.

Personally, I like the idea of Kill Team filling in gaps for armies that don't need a whole refresh but have outdated/missing models. I may be in the minority.

Kanluwen wrote:Tau already have two bespoke Kill Teams that were given model support: Pathfinders and the Kroot Farstalkers.

We're still sitting on AdMech, Tyranids, World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Grey Knights and Talons of the Emperor (off the top of my head) not having the model support for bespoke Kill Teams. For cripe's sake, we got an Inquisitorial Warband before we got a bespoke AdMech KT with model support AND WE JUST HAD AN ENTIRE SEASON THEMED AROUND AN ADMECH LAB!
...
At least with something like I had suggested, Scions fighting against a veteran Fire Warrior Kill Team accompanied by a Firesight Marksman there is an attempt to make it feel like a continuation of the idea of smaller scale battles but with higher stakes accompanying them. The idea of a sniper/tactician(Firesight Marksmen fill this role) being the target of specialized forces is a popular trope. Utilizing the Firesight Marksmen and their Sniper Drones as the "new models" of a set while adding an upgrade frame for the Fire Warriors themselves opens you up to also being able to make some interesting and yet archetypal setups. The Bruiser geared more towards short range firefights to serve as a distraction, the Demolitions Operative, the Plucky Second in Command, and the Religious Zealot all would be good mini-roles to throw in there.

Heck, if Fire Warriors aren't your thing then you could even go in for an all-new models KT and have the Firesight Marksman be accompanied by a release of updated Stealth Suits to serve as the "back up" for the Firesight.

I could understand "okay, T'au have had two 'slots' already, lets give some to some other factions", that's a fair point.

But I don't understand Firesight Marksman over Vespids, and certainly not Fire Warriors. This is a chance to actually flesh out Vespids, maybe give them a bit more of a Thing beyond "another one of the auxiliaries". Hell, why not have a Firesight Marksman *and* Vespid - the marksman is identifying targets, and the Vespids are swooping in to eliminate them. Or, if you fancy it, the Marksman is there to "ensure" the loyalty of the Vespid.

I don't quite understand why Vespid is bad, but Fire Warriors are good, if Tau are to have a release.

your take was that instead of more t'au KTs, we should get more guard regiments as kill teams... but you mention here that two units is enough for t'au. so is it not enough for guard to get Kasrkin and Krieg?

and what makes fire warriors, a unit which is less than a decade old, a better pick than vespids, a kit so old that it would be allowed to vote in elections? and if we're wanting to do new and unique things with this game, then wouldn't be expanding an alien species with limited lore be a better choice than expanding what is already the main infantry choice for t'au?

Yeah, not really getting the "Vespid bad, Fire Warriors good" angle either. I'd rather have the releases be something that hasn't been done yet and if we can't have high concept off-the-wall ideas, fleshing out one of the established but underutilised auxiliary xenos instead seems quite reasonable.

As for the question in the title, what I'd like to be held as strong guiding principles:

- Clear mechanical identity, teams should not overlap too much in their gimmicks. One can move fast while the other can teleport, some are slow and some can fly, some can heal and some can pump out spike damage, some are lone wolves while others operate in fireteams. No team should be basically a +1 version of another.

- Distinct high concept, what's the pitch? These are nuns with guns that weaponise martyrdom, sneaky brutes wiff kunnin', space wizards with a tool for any situation until they start losing those wizards, bulking mutants on a clock, crack commandos that are just too elite to fail, space cops with a license to judge, jury and execute etc.

- Preferably as an addendum to the above, a pitch that shows off a side of 40k we don't really see in the basic game yet is massively present in the many and varied fan-scenes such as Inq28. Scum and villainy, wretched factory menials, tax-collecting bureaucrats with shotguns, military police, twisted tech-priests and other rogue researchers, completely unknown xenos forces, a PDF posse with their local sheriff, an individual Enslaver with its thralls, rogue psykers on the loose, unsanctified warlords with their retinues, different sides of chaos cults, actually interesting daemons, pirate crews and other similar forces that ply their trade in the vastness of the galactic space on the sidelines of massed armies.

 Sherrypie wrote:
- Preferably as an addendum to the above, a pitch that shows off a side of 40k we don't really see in the basic game yet is massively present in the many and varied fan-scenes such as Inq28. Scum and villainy, wretched factory menials, tax-collecting bureaucrats with shotguns, military police, twisted tech-priests and other rogue researchers, completely unknown xenos forces, a PDF posse with their local sheriff, an individual Enslaver with its thralls, rogue psykers on the loose, unsanctified warlords with their retinues, different sides of chaos cults, actually interesting daemons, pirate crews and other similar forces that ply their trade in the vastness of the galactic space on the sidelines of massed armies.

i would be so down for GW introducing a new type of xenos exclusively through KT. have an idea for something, but can't expand it into a full army? perfect, use it here

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I could understand "okay, T'au have had two 'slots' already, lets give some to some other factions", that's a fair point.

But I don't understand Firesight Marksman over Vespids, and certainly not Fire Warriors. This is a chance to actually flesh out Vespids, maybe give them a bit more of a Thing beyond "another one of the auxiliaries".

That fleshing out is the realm of the codices & army expansions. That's why I think Firesight Marksman and Fire Warriors or Stealth Suits over Vespid being "expanded".

Hell, why not have a Firesight Marksman *and* Vespid - the marksman is identifying targets, and the Vespids are swooping in to eliminate them. Or, if you fancy it, the Marksman is there to "ensure" the loyalty of the Vespid.

Because that's what the Strain Leader does?

I don't quite understand why Vespid is bad, but Fire Warriors are good, if Tau are to have a release.

Because what you're talking about for Vespid would be better suited to tying in to a codex expanding release down the road, like the Kroot Farstalkers did?

Tau got their codex already. Setting up a Fire Warriors KT with the parts to build an Expendables styled team of Fire Warriors would be better than something that necessitates another codex or add-on documents.

More Fire Warriors? No thank you. Unique, unusual xenos like Vespids - much more interesting for me.

Cyel wrote:
More Fire Warriors? No thank you. Unique, unusual xenos like Vespids - much more interesting for me.

What do you mean "more Fire Warriors"? The only Fire Warrior Kill Team is from the Compendium.

But really. Explain, using actual words, why you would rather see a slot expended upon what would effectively just be a resculpt?

Why would it have to be just a resculpt?
Nothing stops GW from releasing a datasheet for 40k proper alongside a new Kill Team.

in fact, many times have they released standalone datasheets for kill teams shortly after release. something like the mandrakes where it flatly replaces the existing datasheet is far from universal to how they do it

 Kanluwen wrote:

Cyel wrote:
More Fire Warriors? No thank you. Unique, unusual xenos like Vespids - much more interesting for me.

What do you mean "more Fire Warriors"? The only Fire Warrior Kill Team is from the Compendium.

But really. Explain, using actual words, why you would rather see a slot expended upon what would effectively just be a resculpt?

Sherrypie explains it nicely, with examples. We already have a team of bland, basic Tau dudes, whatever they are called. I'm not excited by another team of basic human-sized dudes vs other basic human-sized dudes. I want unique bands of varied operatives, I want more monsters, inhuman aliens, weirdos. A Meganob mek surrounded by black thumb grots, Tyranid Lictors on a prowl, individualised Daemons like this Slaaneshi band for WH: Underworlds, this awesome idea Sherrypie gave with an Enslaver and its thralls.

WH:Underworlds shows how GW can offer a great variety of shapes, sizes, roles and archetypes to make every individual within a band feel unique and exciting. KT only does it rarely, too often it is just a squad of basic dudes but, oh! this one is medic and that one has a radio, exciting! Well, not really.

In fairness, I like teams of basic soldier dudes with medics and radio operators. My favourite teams have relatively few super special models surrounded by regular riflemen, *but* the whole operates in unique fashion through their faction rules. Say, Starstriders, who have a handful of leaders and half a team of grunts but very flavorful gimmicks supporting their schtick as a retinue of a rich individual rather than just another group of soldiers.

Oh, yes, it's not that I dislike them on principle, they are fine. It's that we already have a bunch of those and adding more isn't as interesting as having something more unique and varied for a change.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I was asked this in the main thread up in N&R. BrookM asked for people to take it elsewhere, so I am!

I was asked why I'm against a Vespid Kill Team and why I think it's a "waste of a Kill Team slot".

The specific answer?
Tau already have two bespoke Kill Teams that were given model support: Pathfinders and the Kroot Farstalkers.

I understand your opinion on this; the T'au Empire has had their fair share of Kill Teams now.

My opinion however is that I always like more for the T'au (and I'm not even a T'au player). The faction known for being very "cosmopolitan" and tactical is the perfect place for more (diverse) Kill Teams.

The Pathfinders aren't a bespoke Kill Team though. They're an upgrade sprue. You mention later that same word to imply a Kill Team that is completely new.

We're still sitting on AdMech, Tyranids, World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Grey Knights and Talons of the Emperor (off the top of my head) not having the model support for bespoke Kill Teams. For cripe's sake, we got an Inquisitorial Warband before we got a bespoke AdMech KT with model support AND WE JUST HAD AN ENTIRE SEASON THEMED AROUND AN ADMECH LAB!

I fully agree with your statement here. Some factions haven't seen a proper Kill Team yet that truly deserve one. The Ad-mech is the biggest contender for most deserving of a Kill Team.

We just had what is, in my opinion, the most disappointing season of the new setup. We launched with a pair of resculpted 40k units as the Kill Teams(Scouts v Striking Scorpions), followed up with a resculpt(Mandrakes) and upgrade frame (Night Lords), and ended with a new unit(Leagues of Votann Hernkyn hunters) and an add-on frame that should have been its own bespoke kit(Brood Brothers).

Agree once again. Rumours were abound that the Gallowdark season was to be the final Kill Team season for a while, before GW realised how well the game did. These last boxsets really showcase that they weren't allowed to go far with the sets or had to scramble with what they had. The striking Scorpions are the worst example of this, since it is just a box of two Striking Scorpion units packed with rules for the other Aspects (including one that also needs a resculpt).

I do not agree however that resculpted units are necessarily bad or a wasted slot. I see Kill Team as a place where the studio is finally allowed to be creative, but also to be allowed go back to reimagining the older kits, instead of having to focus on the "big stuff" for 40k. The Mandrakes, Scouts and the Striking Scorpions deserved a new kit, and Kill Team gave them that chance. In fact, Space Marine Scouts are The Perfect Unit for a Kill Team since their fluff is built around this type of warfare.

Brood Brothers being an upgrade sprue I completely understand and I find very fitting. Unlike the Blooded Kill Team, Brood Brothers need to hide who they really are until the moment they strike. That means they should look like a normal guard squad instead of a corrupted militia. I do agree that a unique design would've been interesting to see.

Continuing on with something like Vespid(a subfaction within the Tau not known for being utilized as guards or for special operations, etc) just feels like they are interested in using KT to pump out resculpts separate from the faction codex.

Which I welcome, and seemingly was the idea for Kill Team this season, as I mentioned. I do understand your opinion though.

At least with something like I had suggested, Scions fighting against a veteran Fire Warrior Kill Team accompanied by a Firesight Marksman there is an attempt to make it feel like a continuation of the idea of smaller scale battles but with higher stakes accompanying them. The idea of a sniper/tactician(Firesight Marksmen fill this role) being the target of specialized forces is a popular trope.

This is the moment you lose me. You are against Vespid Stingwing; A Kill Team which will definitely be a full resculpted reimagining of their old Resin miniatures, and instead prefer a Fire Warrior Kill Team, which would definitely be an Upgrade Sprue of the Fire Warrior kit. Not only that, but it would be a Kill Team that would look almost identical to the Pathfinder Kill Team. You cannot tell me with a straight face that Pathfinders and Fire Warriors don't look alike.


To add to this, a quick Lexicanum search mentions that Vespid actively are used for scouting, as back-up for Pathfinders. Sounds pretty good for a Kill Team

Utilizing the Firesight Marksmen and their Sniper Drones as the "new models" of a set while adding an upgrade frame for the Fire Warriors themselves opens you up to also being able to make some interesting and yet archetypal setups. The Bruiser geared more towards short range firefights to serve as a distraction, the Demolitions Operative, the Plucky Second in Command, and the Religious Zealot all would be good mini-roles to throw in there.

These archetypal setups you mention could also be perfectly implemented within a Vespid Kill Team. In fact, it would allow the studio to actually develop their culture and lore more. The Beastmen and Kroot Kill Team did this perfectly, even though both of them lacked that in their older fluff and unit description. If we get as much new lore for the Vespid as we got for the Fellgors in their book, I would be a happy man.

Heck, if Fire Warriors aren't your thing then you could even go in for an all-new models KT and have the Firesight Marksman be accompanied by a release of updated Stealth Suits to serve as the "back up" for the Firesight.

This I find a little more interesting, but this is yet again either a resculpt or an upgrade sprue for an already existing unit. In fact, this sounds in my opinion like the Hierotek Circle for the Necrons, which in my opinion was the most dissapointing Kill Team (with the Drukhari one being a close second).

You really want that Firesight Marksman though, it seems. If you really wanted a bespoke Kill Team with that unit, I would see it happen in the form of an experimental Drone Kill Team, since that is their shtick.

At this point though? I consider it a "waste of a Kill Team slot" if it's a retread of an existing unit, jammed into KT. If you think any new models are good models, that's for you.

I'd rather see Kill Team get more bespoke Kill Teams with models, and those models being properly integrated into KT and 40k both.

And that will happen, Gallowdark showcased what Kill Team can do, and with the rumours going around, it seems that more will come eventually. However, Vespids aren't taking away a slot for something else, especially when you suggest something that in my opinion feels more like a wasted slot. I also feel like your opinion on this is a little bit paradoxical. What do you consider a resculpt. You mentioned Mandrakes, and Scouts, but what about Kasrkin, or Kommandos? Are the Krieg Veterans a resculpt? They are technically based upon the Forge World Krieg infantry kit.

I have an entire list of what GW could do with potential Kill Teams, both resculpts and potential new units. Vespid is a definite on that list. In fact, I will come back when I have analysed how many Kill Teams each faction has.

I'm pretty sure almost every Kill Team unit is either a resculpt, upgrade sprue, or both.

The only really new ones I can think of are Sister Novitiates, Navy Armsmen, and the Hernkyn.

My problem with Kill Team is that half the models I was using in the previous edition have yet to resurface in the current edition, or only just made an appearance in these twilight days. Eldar alone...

Farseer
Warlock
Spiritseer
Wraithguard / blades

...and outrageously late to the party...

Banshees
Scorpions

...and yet all of these models found a new home in Stargrave in it's core book alone. If I hadn't ditched Kill Team, they'd still be gathering dust on the shelves...

And so I really don't mind that Vespids or IG are introduced into the game, but the new edition needs a lot more freedom for list building and to provide rules for models that are already avaliable to use - not think about it for the duration of a whole edition.

 Haighus wrote:
I'm pretty sure almost every Kill Team unit is either a resculpt, upgrade sprue, or both.

The only really new ones I can think of are Sister Novitiates, Navy Armsmen, and the Hernkyn.

all the kill teams we've gotten, to date



that gives us eight resculpts, eight upgrade sprues, seven new kits, and chaos cults. it's remarkably even, actually, but we can see some pretty clear trends in terms of how models are released... that being, whether we're getting new kits, resculpts, or what else tends to be a matter of how that season is going, which makes it hard to predict how future seasons are going to go in that respect

I think what's become clear to me in this thread is that Kill Team seems to have a bit of a varied identity.

a) Elite Operators from established 40k armies doing Tacticool things for people who play too much CoD

b) a way to explore the weirder end of 40k that doesn't make it to the company+ game that is 40k10 for people who play too many RPGs

Some of the teams have been the former, and some the latter - I still have no idea why the Arbites - usually from a planetary precinct -would be harrumphing around in space fighting dark eldar raiders, but they do show off one of the background presences. Similarly, one could imagine Exodites - you'd have to come up with a wacky reason for why pastoral dinosaur riding elves go off to space. But both those teams are quite different from, say, Kasrkin or even Tau Pathfinders, who are specialists from regular military forces going out and doing recruitment-poster-y deeds.

I think I am also tiring a little of the parade of teams that are just a regular squad with the same set of specialists; medic, comms, leader, puncher 1, puncher 2, tech person, guns people. There's only so many ways GW can express those concepts, and what seemed neat initially is now kind of a dull bookeeping exercise IMHO - THIS comms model has rule X.1 and THIS comms model has rule X.2, etc. KT2E seemed pretty innovative - as far as the GW stable goes - at the time, but for me these days it's just a source of cool models to use in other games.

 Segersgia wrote:
I understand your opinion on this; the T'au Empire has had their fair share of Kill Teams now.

My opinion however is that I always like more for the T'au (and I'm not even a T'au player). The faction known for being very "cosmopolitan" and tactical is the perfect place for more (diverse) Kill Teams.

The Pathfinders aren't a bespoke Kill Team though. They're an upgrade sprue. You mention later that same word to imply a Kill Team that is completely new.

Nope. I used that term to explicitly differentiate between factions that have bespoke Kill Teams(of which AdMech have had one, the Hunter Clade, since the launch) but no model support. Important to remember that the Pathfinders did receive their own unique Kill Team setup in Chalnath.

I fully agree with your statement here. Some factions haven't seen a proper Kill Team yet that truly deserve one. The Ad-mech is the biggest contender for most deserving of a Kill Team.

Again: they have one. The Hunter Clade was a Kill Team we received back with a White Dwarf, that replaced the "basic" Kill Team.

Agree once again. Rumours were abound that the Gallowdark season was to be the final Kill Team season for a while, before GW realised how well the game did. These last boxsets really showcase that they weren't allowed to go far with the sets or had to scramble with what they had. The striking Scorpions are the worst example of this, since it is just a box of two Striking Scorpion units packed with rules for the other Aspects (including one that also needs a resculpt).

I do not agree however that resculpted units are necessarily bad or a wasted slot. I see Kill Team as a place where the studio is finally allowed to be creative, but also to be allowed go back to reimagining the older kits, instead of having to focus on the "big stuff" for 40k. The Mandrakes, Scouts and the Striking Scorpions deserved a new kit, and Kill Team gave them that chance. In fact, Space Marine Scouts are The Perfect Unit for a Kill Team since their fluff is built around this type of warfare.

Scouts literally got revealed as part of the 10E Space Marine Codex and were held back for KT. That is why they were a terrible choice.
They were being used as "guards for an Adeptus Mechanicus facility". That's not very Scout-y.

Brood Brothers being an upgrade sprue I completely understand and I find very fitting. Unlike the Blooded Kill Team, Brood Brothers need to hide who they really are until the moment they strike. That means they should look like a normal guard squad instead of a corrupted militia. I do agree that a unique design would've been interesting to see.

Cool, so your entire statement is splitting hairs that don't actually exist. The Guard has now been retconned to also include the Planetary Defence Forces...aka the thing that Brood Brothers are supposed to be infiltrating for the most part. When you read the Brood Brothers lore, it makes a big deal about infiltrating the planetary forces. Not the offworld forces.

Never mind that the whole concept is a lazy one at this juncture, and pales in comparison to the far superior version that was brought in when GSC were returned to the game.

Which I welcome, and seemingly was the idea for Kill Team this season, as I mentioned. I do understand your opinion though.
This is the moment you lose me. You are against Vespid Stingwing; A Kill Team which will definitely be a full resculpted reimagining of their old Resin miniatures, and instead prefer a Fire Warrior Kill Team, which would definitely be an Upgrade Sprue of the Fire Warrior kit.

Then you're really not understanding my opinion. Kill Team should be a vessel of its own design. It shouldn't be gapfilling for codices that have already been released.

Vespid, like Space Marine Scouts, if they needed to be released immediately? Should have been done with the book. Hold them to release later in an updated Combat Patrol or something, but let Kill Team stand on its own.

Not only that, but it would be a Kill Team that would look almost identical to the Pathfinder Kill Team. You cannot tell me with a straight face that Pathfinders and Fire Warriors don't look alike.

Spoiler:

Spot the difference

I absolutely can and will tell you that they don't look alike. The asymmetrical pauldron, the legplates, the blunter helmets, the bulkier weapons that lack the Markerlights and the backpacks all create a different visual profile on the game board.

To add to this, a quick Lexicanum search mentions that Vespid actively are used for scouting, as back-up for Pathfinders. Sounds pretty good for a Kill Team

Sounds like they would be a great fit to be added as auxiliary items to the Pathfinder's bespoke Kill Team...if the lore's still valid. That's from a Fantasy Flight Games RPG supplement, "Mark of the Xenos".

These archetypal setups you mention could also be perfectly implemented within a Vespid Kill Team. In fact, it would allow the studio to actually develop their culture and lore more. The Beastmen and Kroot Kill Team did this perfectly, even though both of them lacked that in their older fluff and unit description. If we get as much new lore for the Vespid as we got for the Fellgors in their book, I would be a happy man.

Both of them actually had a good chunk of what they got in existing lore. Remember that Kroot had their own army list back in the day.

This I find a little more interesting, but this is yet again either a resculpt or an upgrade sprue for an already existing unit. In fact, this sounds in my opinion like the Hierotek Circle for the Necrons, which in my opinion was the most dissapointing Kill Team (with the Drukhari one being a close second).

See, I find things like the Hierotek Circle inspired. It was a good way to bring in an upgrade frame that let you build an alternate version of a character recently introduced(the Necron bodyguard/lieutenant equivalent), allowed for you to bring in a character to the Kill Team(because remember: it allows you to take any Cryptek type!), and generally make a cool themed unit that didn't require rules for 40k.

You really want that Firesight Marksman though, it seems. If you really wanted a bespoke Kill Team with that unit, I would see it happen in the form of an experimental Drone Kill Team, since that is their shtick.

I mean, their schtick isn't "experimental drones". It's being a marksman with a thermo-optic field, without being in a battlesuit.

The reason I've suggested a "veteran Fire Warrior team" is that it harkens back to the lore of the introduction of the Rail Rifles to the Tau. Particularly selfless Fire Caste members were using them to field-test the concept, with the users being veteran Fire Warriors rather than rookies.

And that will happen, Gallowdark showcased what Kill Team can do, and with the rumours going around, it seems that more will come eventually. However, Vespids aren't taking away a slot for something else, especially when you suggest something that in my opinion feels more like a wasted slot.

They absolutely would be taking a slot away for something else. They had a chance to be released with the Tau codex, which came out this year.

I also feel like your opinion on this is a little bit paradoxical. What do you consider a resculpt. You mentioned Mandrakes, and Scouts, but what about Kasrkin, or Kommandos? Are the Krieg Veterans a resculpt? They are technically based upon the Forge World Krieg infantry kit.

I mentioned Mandrakes and Scouts because both of them came with this most recent season.

I absolutely would consider Kasrkin a resculpt, going off your criteria...but I'd also consider them a dedicated Kill Team because every item they receive as a Kill Team is on a singular sprue. To a lot of folks as well they were a brand new kit, since the metals had been discontinued for quite some time.
Kommandos are in a similar situation, but were still available.

Krieg would not fit under that criteria, since their Kill Team bits are actually on a separate mini-sprue that was designed to be added to the box.

Although I will add something that is constantly overlooked:
There was no "Krieg Kill Team". It was the "Veteran Guardsman Kill Team" and was regimentally agnostic. That's actually a part of why I found the Brood Brothers set so irritating, as they took the few items that the Cadians need to be able to field a Veteran Guardsman Kill Team(sniper, medic, bruiser, and zealot) and made Brood Brother versions of them that are just too gribbly to be useable for the Cadians.

I have an entire list of what GW could do with potential Kill Teams, both resculpts and potential new units. Vespid is a definite on that list. In fact, I will come back when I have analysed how many Kill Teams each faction has.

Do remember that some factions have Kill Teams via the Annuals & White Dwarf that have received 0 model support.

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
I'm pretty sure almost every Kill Team unit is either a resculpt, upgrade sprue, or both.

The only really new ones I can think of are Sister Novitiates, Navy Armsmen, and the Hernkyn.

all the kill teams we've gotten, to date

Spoiler:

Kommandos (resculpt) vs Death Korps (resculpt)
Pathfinders (upgrade sprue) vs Novitiates (new)
Legionaries (upgrade sprue) vs Voidscarred (new*)
Phobos (upgrade sprue) vs Blooded (new**)
Kroot (new*) vs Navy Breachers (new)
Hierotek (upgrade sprue) Circle vs Kasrkin (resculpt)
Hand of the Archon (upgrade sprue) vs Exaction Squad (resculpt)
Hearthkyn Salvagers (upgrade sprue) vs Fellgor Ravagers (new**)
Chaos Cult (existing models) vs Inquisitorial Agents (resculpt)
Striking Scorpions (resculpt) vs Space Marine Scouts (resculpt)
Nemesis Claw (upgrade sprue) vs Mandrakes (resculpt)
Brood Brothers (upgrade sprue) vs Hernkyn Yaegirs (new)

* a kit for an existing army or subfaction, but a new kit within that
** you can debate these being new, but they feel distinct enough to be new entities

that gives us eight resculpts, eight upgrade sprues, seven new kits, and chaos cults. it's remarkably even, actually, but we can see some pretty clear trends in terms of how models are released... that being, whether we're getting new kits, resculpts, or what else tends to be a matter of how that season is going, which makes it hard to predict how future seasons are going to go in that respect

The corsairs felt like a resculpt to me, albeit quite far from their previous FW incarnation. They look inspired by a studio conversion from 20 years ago. Traitor Guard and Chaos beastmen I was thinking more as resculpts than new, but I agree they are not particularly close to previous versions unless counting BSF. Edit: I thought there were Chaos 40k beastmen and traitor guard from Rogue Trader or 2nd, but seems I was mistaken. They must have all been conversions.

I do grant the Kroot unit. They are distinct from carnivores.

To specifically answer the title question of this thread, I kind of see KT21 and Mordheim as being on equal footing in this regard. So anything you could consider a distinct warband for Morheim? Could make for a bespoke Killteam in KT21.

As for KT21 as a game, I skipped the entirety of the 3rd season deliberately (only bought the two reactor terrain pieces from KT: Termination on ebay). Season 3 felt lacklustre from the start. Waiting for KT24 to release, or another season that is not just a minimum effort release in terms of Killteam'ness, like S3 was. S3 was basically just models for 40K as far as I'm concerned. First season of KT21 was the most memorable IMHO, and while Gallowdark was a superb value box, cant help feeling the rest of S2 was just rehashing the Boarding Actions terrain.. The least S2 should have done would have been to include some meaty campaign missions in the Annual book, where you could have used all the special terrain from all 4 boxes in a single, 2 board megamission..

Kanluwen wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I could understand "okay, T'au have had two 'slots' already, lets give some to some other factions", that's a fair point.

But I don't understand Firesight Marksman over Vespids, and certainly not Fire Warriors. This is a chance to actually flesh out Vespids, maybe give them a bit more of a Thing beyond "another one of the auxiliaries".

That fleshing out is the realm of the codices & army expansions.

Why? Why can't it also be in Kill Team as well? Kill Team fleshed out some of the stuff for Corsairs, and Novitiates, and Kroot. Why not also for Vespid?

Explain *why* Kill Team can't *also* introduce new concepts and themes.

That's why I think Firesight Marksman and Fire Warriors or Stealth Suits over Vespid being "expanded".

I still don't get it. Why?? Why are *they* fine, but Vespid aren't?

Fire Warriors are a relatively new kit. Vespid are old enough to drink. Fire Warriors don't need squit.

Hell, why not have a Firesight Marksman *and* Vespid - the marksman is identifying targets, and the Vespids are swooping in to eliminate them. Or, if you fancy it, the Marksman is there to "ensure" the loyalty of the Vespid.

Because that's what the Strain Leader does?

What, Vespid Strain Leader execute other Vespids if they act up? Never heard of that before.

I don't quite understand why Vespid is bad, but Fire Warriors are good, if Tau are to have a release.

Because what you're talking about for Vespid would be better suited to tying in to a codex expanding release down the road, like the Kroot Farstalkers did?

No? It's perfectly possible to create a kit for Vespid that doesn't change their Codex version, but provides a Kill Team analogue. Or, they do it like Corsairs, and then introduce a "veteran Vespid" unit which has all the Kill Team goodies. One single FAQ addition. Slap it in the MFM, like how points change constantly.

Tau got their codex already. Setting up a Fire Warriors KT with the parts to build an Expendables styled team of Fire Warriors would be better than something that necessitates another codex or add-on documents.

*Why* would it be better? "Explain", as you said, "using actual words". I don't see why this would be better in any sense.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Why? Why can't it also be in Kill Team as well? Kill Team fleshed out some of the stuff for Corsairs, and Novitiates, and Kroot. Why not also for Vespid?

Corsairs and Kroot both had already been fairly fleshed out. Novitiates were an entirely new unit.

Explain *why* Kill Team can't *also* introduce new concepts and themes.

Explain *why* it needs to be used to gap fill codices like you've been arguing for.

I still don't get it. Why?? Why are *they* fine, but Vespid aren't?

Because Chalnath literally has lore of pockets of Fire Caste being used to build up insurgencies? It's in the lore for the Kroot in the new codex. The Tau used Kroot to smuggle supplies in.

Fire Warriors are a relatively new kit. Vespid are old enough to drink. Fire Warriors don't need squit.

Chaos Marines are just as old as Fire Warriors and have received not just one, but two different upgrade frames for Kill Teams.

Leagues of Votann got a Kill Team with an upgrade frame within a few months of release.

Vespid not getting a Kill Team release doesn't mean I'm saying "NO VESPID MODELS EVER!!!!". It means I'm saying they shouldn't be used for Kill Team when we have a lore setup, a concept setup, and something that's more interesting than just "new models for new models' sake".

What, Vespid Strain Leader execute other Vespids if they act up? Never heard of that before.

Your argument was simply to keep them in line. Fire Caste aren't going to be used as pretend Commissars.

The Strain Leaders' Communion Helmet has been, at one time, mentioned to have indoctrination tech in it.

No? It's perfectly possible to create a kit for Vespid that doesn't change their Codex version, but provides a Kill Team analogue. Or, they do it like Corsairs, and then introduce a "veteran Vespid" unit which has all the Kill Team goodies. One single FAQ addition. Slap it in the MFM, like how points change constantly.

LOL, and if I suggested it would be neat to do something similar for Kasrkin you'd be decrying it as bloat. Nah.

*Why* would it be better? "Explain", as you said, "using actual words". I don't see why this would be better in any sense.

Better fit to the lore of the warzone in question, better fit for the lore of the army in question, better in basically every sense other than to the people who just want new Vespids.

Kanluwen wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Why? Why can't it also be in Kill Team as well? Kill Team fleshed out some of the stuff for Corsairs, and Novitiates, and Kroot. Why not also for Vespid?

Corsairs and Kroot both had already been fairly fleshed out. Novitiates were an entirely new unit.

So, entirely new units are fine, but an existing unit that has scant lore about them isn't?

Explain *why* Kill Team can't *also* introduce new concepts and themes.

Explain *why* it needs to be used to gap fill codices like you've been arguing for.

You started this thread. You made the first statement. Back it up, and then I'll answer mine.

The onus is on you.

I still don't get it. Why?? Why are *they* fine, but Vespid aren't?

Because Chalnath literally has lore of pockets of Fire Caste being used to build up insurgencies? It's in the lore for the Kroot in the new codex. The Tau used Kroot to smuggle supplies in.

That doesn't answer it though. Vespid are part of the Tau Empire. It wouldn't be hard to imagine that Vespid could be a part of those pockets of resistance. At the moment, it just feels like you have this irrational hatred of Vespid - which you've said you don't have, but there is a massive disconnect between what you're saying here.

Fire Warriors are a relatively new kit. Vespid are old enough to drink. Fire Warriors don't need squit.

Chaos Marines are just as old as Fire Warriors and have received not just one, but two different upgrade frames for Kill Teams.

And have I defended that? No. I'd rather have had upgrade frames for units that aren't just the old "here's a medic, here's a melee expert, here's a marksman, here's a demolitions expert etc".

Leagues of Votann got a Kill Team with an upgrade frame within a few months of release.

Entirely new (well, renewed) faction that welcomed a bit more fleshing out. Hardly the same.

Vespid not getting a Kill Team release doesn't mean I'm saying "NO VESPID MODELS EVER!!!!". It means I'm saying they shouldn't be used for Kill Team when we have a lore setup, a concept setup, and something that's more interesting than just "new models for new models' sake".

Sorry, but there's room for a lore and concept setup for a Vespid team (play around with their harmonic/resonant nature, their nature as rapid heavy hitters for the Pathfinders, and expand their unique alien nature), which is, IMO FAR more interesting than "Fire Warriors with an upgrade sprue which just apes all the same archetypes that every other upgrade sprue Kill Team does, and is basically just Pathfinders with more armour".

Again - I wouldn't care so much if you emphasised that this is just an opinion and entirely subjective, but then you keep coming out with these patronising comments ("use actual words") and absolutely statements ("more interesting") which paint this idea of objectivity.

If YOU think that Kill Team should be used to reskin existing units with a tacticool specialist skin for a basic infantry squad in a faction that already has a similar archetype, then that's fine! But don't try claiming that it's "more interesting" to anyone other than you, or that your hangup on "Kill Team should never be used to update older models" is anything other that your own personal gripe.

I personally think it's completely fine, and that's just as valid an opinion as yours.

What, Vespid Strain Leader execute other Vespids if they act up? Never heard of that before.

Your argument was simply to keep them in line. Fire Caste aren't going to be used as pretend Commissars.

The Strain Leaders' Communion Helmet has been, at one time, mentioned to have indoctrination tech in it.

That's not what I'm talking about either. Also, interesting that earlier, you shut down the idea of some Vespid lore as being outdated, but then bring up Vespid lore that isn't mentioned in the current Codex.

Seems a little inconsistent.

No? It's perfectly possible to create a kit for Vespid that doesn't change their Codex version, but provides a Kill Team analogue. Or, they do it like Corsairs, and then introduce a "veteran Vespid" unit which has all the Kill Team goodies. One single FAQ addition. Slap it in the MFM, like how points change constantly.

LOL, and if I suggested it would be neat to do something similar for Kasrkin you'd be decrying it as bloat. Nah.

Kasrkin already have that?? Literally, Kasrkin *are* already that - and I've not said it's bloat.

You're just making up statements against you now.

*Why* would it be better? "Explain", as you said, "using actual words". I don't see why this would be better in any sense.

Better fit to the lore of the warzone in question, better fit for the lore of the army in question, better in basically every sense other than to the people who just want new Vespids.

"Warzone in question" - there's nothing saying that Vespid AREN'T present. There's also nothing saying that Firesight Marksmen are.
"Better for the lore of the army in question" - In what way? In what way is having a marginally more greeblied Fire Warrior squad "better", but fleshing out Vespid isn't? You're making statements, not arguments.
"Better in every way" - like you said, use actual words. All you're doing is repeating your own personal opinion and acting it's objectively superior.

Explain it. WHY is it better? At the moment, your argument devolves into "it's better because it's better, and if you disagree you're clearly inferior for not supporting this objectively better idea".

Which, you know, isn't helping your case here.


You started this thread. You espoused the virtue of these super leet Fire Warriors, and this idea of what Kill Team released *should* be - the onus is on you to defend and support those opinions, and not to say "they're just better".

i don't see why this has to be an either/or situation. each kill team box (except the first each season) comes with a new sculpt and an existing kit with an upgrade sprue. so there's space for both fire warriors with an upgrade sprue, and at a different time, vespids. it's not a zero sum game and voicing a staunch opinion that one should not exist (without ever explaining that opinion) is just coming across as bullheaded

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
You started this thread. You made the first statement. Back it up, and then I'll answer mine.

The onus is on you.

Nah. I've already answered yours. You disliked the answer and chose to keep trying to go for the throat.

That doesn't answer it though. Vespid are part of the Tau Empire. It wouldn't be hard to imagine that Vespid could be a part of those pockets of resistance.

Sure it would. Because it's explicitly called out as Fire Caste forces left behind in the initial Chalnath book. The whole premise of that first book had the Tau Empire identifying the same "weak" worlds as the Sororitas to be targeted for bringing into line.

The most recent Codex: Tau Empire further added to it that Kroot posing as mercenaries have been smuggling Gue'vesa units, Pathfinder Teams, and Water Caste gue'la "enlightenment" cells to those worlds.

At the moment, it just feels like you have this irrational hatred of Vespid - which you've said you don't have, but there is a massive disconnect between what you're saying here.

Maybe it feels that way to you because you've spent a lot of effort over the past few years to paint anything and everything as me having an "irrational hatred" of it?

Vespid are boring(since apparently I have to say this: TO ME) as a concept at this juncture. They're bugs that were brought in to serve as an infantry-sized jump troop with a Plasma Gun equivalent.

And have I defended that? No.

Never said you defended it. But you seemed to just ignore these things existed in your quest to decry Fire Warriors.

I'd rather have had upgrade frames for units that aren't just the old "here's a medic, here's a melee expert, here's a marksman, here's a demolitions expert etc".

And what exactly do you think a Vespid Kill Team would bring in that wouldn't just be those same general archetypes?
Kill Team has archetypes.

Entirely new (well, renewed) faction that welcomed a bit more fleshing out. Hardly the same.

Oh so now we're splitting hairs! It's okay when it's an "entirely new(well, renewed) faction" but not for anyone else?

Sorry, but there's room for a lore and concept setup for a Vespid team (play around with their harmonic/resonant nature, their nature as rapid heavy hitters for the Pathfinders, and expand their unique alien nature), which is, IMO FAR more interesting

And literally only mentioned once ever in a third-party RPG product as a suggested pairing rather than an actual, lore-based thing.

than "Fire Warriors with an upgrade sprue which just apes all the same archetypes that every other upgrade sprue Kill Team does, and is basically just Pathfinders with more armour".

Again: Kill Team has archetypes. I'm sorry that this idea apparently offends you to such an extent but that's the way the system works.

Again - I wouldn't care so much if you emphasised that this is just an opinion and entirely subjective, but then you keep coming out with these patronising comments ("use actual words") and absolutely statements ("more interesting") which paint this idea of objectivity.

Someone shouldn't be forced to constantly state that their statement is their opinion.

If YOU think that Kill Team should be used to reskin existing units with a tacticool specialist skin for a basic infantry squad in a faction that already has a similar archetype, then that's fine!

Pathfinders are built around synergy, Markerlights, and can include off-board assets.

You'll note that nothing I suggested for a Fire Caste Kill Team included a "marksman" outside of the Firesight Marksman and their sniper drone themselves.

But don't try claiming that it's "more interesting" to anyone other than you, or that your hangup on "Kill Team should never be used to update older models" is anything other that your own personal gripe.

The latter bit seems to be a fairly well shared sentiment, if you'd bothered to read other posts.

I personally think it's completely fine, and that's just as valid an opinion as yours.

You'll notice though that I've never actually said "it should never be used to update older models". It's that it shouldn't become an avenue that does nothing but do that.

That's not what I'm talking about either. Also, interesting that earlier, you shut down the idea of some Vespid lore as being outdated, but then bring up Vespid lore that isn't mentioned in the current Codex.

Seems a little inconsistent.

The Communion Helm lore is actual lore from GW themselves. It not being in the current codex is certainly a knock against it, but the lore being stripped out of codices is unfortunately a common thing.

Vespids with Pathfinders is from Deathwatch: Mark of the Xenos, and came from a suggestion for unit pairings for GMs.

Sgt. Smudge wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

No? It's perfectly possible to create a kit for Vespid that doesn't change their Codex version, but provides a Kill Team analogue. Or, they do it like Corsairs, and then introduce a "veteran Vespid" unit which has all the Kill Team goodies. One single FAQ addition. Slap it in the MFM, like how points change constantly.

LOL, and if I suggested it would be neat to do something similar for Kasrkin you'd be decrying it as bloat. Nah.

Kasrkin already have that?? Literally, Kasrkin *are* already that - and I've not said it's bloat.

You're just making up statements against you now.

Cool, so I'm not editing my statement out of this. Just so you can't try to pretend that I've edited something out of it.

Kasrkin are not that. Kasrkin are a single unit, with all of their options on their actual frames. There's no "Veteran Kasrkin unit" with all the Kill Team goodies, there's no "Veteran Guardsman unit", no "Brood Brothers unit".

CORSAIRS ARE THE ONLY UNIT TO HAVE RECEIVED THAT TREATMENT.

Additionally? Kasrkin aren't even actually given all the options that the kit builds as frigging options in the unit. Can't outfit the Sergeant with a Hellgun(despite it literally being an option for KT and an option in the instruction sheet for the generic unit), can't take a Medic, can't take a model with a Surveyor, and the model with the Melta-Mine is forced into taking a Hellpistol despite there being a way to outfit the model with a Hellgun.

Warzone in question" - there's nothing saying that Vespid AREN'T present. There's also nothing saying that Firesight Marksmen are.

Fire Caste being present suggests that Farsight Marksmen are present.

"Better for the lore of the army in question" - In what way? In what way is having a marginally more greeblied Fire Warrior squad "better", but fleshing out Vespid isn't? You're making statements, not arguments.

And in what way is fleshing out Vespid with Kill Team archetypes "better for the lore of the army in question"?

You'll notice though that not once did I argue for the proposed Fire Warriors Kill Team's items to get thrown into the codex afterwards. The closest was to treat it like the Hierotek Circle and give a way to build something like the Fireblades.

"Better in every way" - like you said, use actual words. All you're doing is repeating your own personal opinion and acting it's objectively superior.

Sorry that you don't like my opinion, I guess? Don't worry, I still can like you!

Explain it. WHY is it better? At the moment, your argument devolves into "it's better because it's better, and if you disagree you're clearly inferior for not supporting this objectively better idea".

Which, you know, isn't helping your case here.

I've already explained why. You not liking the answer isn't my problem.

You started this thread. You espoused the virtue of these super leet Fire Warriors, and this idea of what Kill Team released *should* be - the onus is on you to defend and support those opinions, and not to say "they're just better".

Oh is THAT why we're here?


I've explained why I don't want to see Vespid get a Kill Team release. You've chosen to ignore that explanation or paint it as irrational hatred.

That's a you problem, not a me communicating problem.

 Kanluwen wrote:

"Better for the lore of the army in question" - In what way? In what way is having a marginally more greeblied Fire Warrior squad "better", but fleshing out Vespid isn't? You're making statements, not arguments.

And in what way is fleshing out Vespid with Kill Team archetypes "better for the lore of the army in question"?

oh! this one is super easy to answer. vespids don't have a lot of lore, so giving them new lore will expand on their lore considerably more than if you made a new fire warriors unit.

Making a Kill Team does not equal making a new unit.

new kill team, then, if we're being pedantic about language. address the point i was actually making