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Aside from Roboute Guilliman, the Imperium is primarily ruled by non-Marines, such as the High Lords of Terra, planetary governors, top officers like Lord Solar Leontus, and so on. On the Chaos side, however, it seems that almost all named leaders are Space Marines (or former Space Marines who've ascended to daemonhood).

Is this merely reflective of how playable factions are organized, with only Chaos Marines and daemons having their own armies? Or is it an in-universe product of Chaos' almost orkishly dog-eat-dog society, where no Marine would ever defer to the authority of someone smaller and squishier than them?

I'd be curious to know who are the most prominent non-Marine servants of Chaos.

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Well, Chaos doesn't have any mortal non-Astartes forces while the Imperium has SoB, Guard, Knights, Mechanicus, and Agents.

In terms of background, the vast majority of Chaos forces are Cults, traitor Regiments, and mutant uprisings.

The Gaunt's Ghosts series almost entirely features mortal Chaos forces, some of which are powerful enough to command Astartes themselves such as Archon Sek or Urlock Gaur.
Though this was hundreds of years before the current 40k date.

At best there is the Hand of Abaddon in the Dawn of Fire series but they're sort of not really mortal.

Yes, obviously. There are plenty of 'mortal', highly-placed Chaos worshippers.

There is a fair list on Lexicanum

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/List_of_Chaos_Lords

Mostly marines, which is to be expected, but a fair few non marines in there as well. Abnett’s books are the source for most of them, but there is the not-hitler from one of the Cain series

Although I guess most of the “mortal” ones are probably possessed up to the gills by the time they get to the top table.

It…depends. Including on which particular incarnation of 40K Chaos you embrace, as there’s been a few and happily, they’re not entirely mutually exclusive.

I myself favour the “loose coalition of warbands of varying individual size” as per the earliest Realms of Chaos stuff.

There, Warbands aren’t just lead by whomever is hardest (though some absolutely are!), but it can be whomever is the most charismatic.

Consider a Renegade Guard Regiment. Chances are, whoever is leading them is very much mortal - and crucially, they needn’t be a psyker. They may yet end up with Traitor Astartes in their ranks, either as allies (of convenience or permanent), paid for mercenaries) or full on “this guy is the best” true believers utterly loyal to a mortal(ish, such things being inherently mutable when Chaos is involved) believers.

The important thing to keep in mind is despite their background prominence? Like their Loyalist brothers, Traitor Astartes are absolutely the minority of Chaos Forces. Disproportionately powerful? Sure. But still a fraction of the available forces. And like Imperial Forces, the vast majority of mortal traitors will live out their short, miserable lives only knowing of Astartes as myths.

Which is all part of why GW need to extract digit from orifice and give us a full on Mortal Traitor Codex, packed with frothing, disposable loonies.

The captains and admirals of Chaos fleets don't necessarily have to be Marines. In Battlefleet Gothic's setting of the Gothic War, most of the Chaos ship captains were not Marines, and rules for CSM crew and captains only came in afterwards.

It is partly an issue of playable factions and GW basically emphasizing CSM over all non-CSM Chaos followers (who at best are depicted as pawns or in a cannon fodder role).

IA 13 had a nice bit of that, their motivation is the same, though their bodily limitations make it that they get in their apoteosis only up to herald normally.

But they very much aim for the same, imortality, with an obviously higher attrition rate.

I'd say be'lakor counts as having a "high position"

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Which is all part of why GW need to extract digit from orifice and give us a full on Mortal Traitor Codex, packed with frothing, disposable loonies.

Agreed. I don't know why the genestealer cults got a playable faction before Chaos mortals did. In many ways, they are my idea of what Chaos mortals should be like: a ragtag mix of corrupted Imperial Guard soldiers (with tanks and transports), cultists who are turning their civilian hardware (such as mining vehicles) to destructive purposes, and beastly half-human monstrosities.

Charax wrote:
I'd say be'lakor counts as having a "high position"

He's a daemon prince.

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He was mortal originally, and becoming a daemon prince is arguably the highest position you can get in the forces of Chaos. He's also never been a space marine.

Not Online!!! wrote:


But they very much aim for the same, imortality, with an obviously higher attrition rate.

I think this is the key thing. Any follower of Chaos has the potential to ascend to the highest positions available to mortals- daemonhood as a daemon prince. But Chaos Marines start with advantages that make them far more likely to get there, not least that the Chaos Gods find them typically more useful pawns worthy of reward. So it isn't surprising that most of the most powerful Chaos lords are Chaos Marines, even if the vast majority of Chaos worshippers are not.

For starters, the extended lifespan of being a Marine allows for much more opportunity to accrue gifts and favour.

Eldar Chaos Champions are also noted as being among the most powerful of a God's followers, but whether that means they hold any particular authority over any of the others isn't specified IIRC

Charax wrote:
Eldar Chaos Champions are also noted as being among the most powerful of a God's followers, but whether that means they hold any particular authority over any of the others isn't specified IIRC

Might generally makes right for followers of Chaos, so I would think so, if they care to exercise that authority over others.

On the Daemon Prince thing? Again going back to Realms of Chaos, the difference between becoming a Daemon Prince and a Chaos Spawn boiled down to your strength of spirit, mind and body.

Whilst there are other description of such apotheosis, back then the various rewards, gifts and mutations gifted were the result of insane gods who cared only that you were rewarded. You might get Iron Hard Skin, or the feet of a Chicken. The usefulness just wasn’t considered. And, once you’d amassed sufficient blessings, your physical form and spirit either became a Daemon Prince, or ran riot resulting in damnation as a Chaos Spawn.

With advancements in the background? I think there’s a strong argument to be made that Astartes, with all their “starting perks” are just more likely to become a Daemon Prince than fall to Spawndom.

Greater physical strength, intelligence, and longevity will do that to be fair.
It's no coincidence that the Gods really started to meddle when the Emperor had the Legions out in the stars.
Sure mortals are fun but mortals who are that next step up and make it that much easier to enact schemes and slaughter?
A Cult might destablise a continent or a planet. A warband of Astartes can conquer a sector.

Yes. There is definitely going to be a bias towards Marines being high ranking, as they will tend to dominate any non-marines they end up working with, but nothing is preventing a normal human from getting high rank.

Of course as a mortal follower, you're probably going to have to hope the Chaos gods give you some boons to level the playing field if any marines do come along to challenge your control of your warband.

If it’s a numbers game as well. Chaos Marines are in the order of 10^6, while even corrupted humans will be somewhere in the order of 10^12.

I think it is notable that a lot of powerful mortal warlords are also powerful psykers- that is something that does level the playing field against Chaos Marines.

Chaos is much more militaristic and violent. Even within Chaos Space Marine warbands, leadership is sometimes decided by whoever kills the previous title holder. Therefore, most of those at the top are inevitably Chaos Space Marines or others who have been heavily empowered by Chaos. This is very obvious in the Siege of Krak where the Chaos Space Marines just dump Xaphan and take over.

There are a few non-Chaos Space Marines who have attained a lot of power, however:

+ In Gaunt's Ghosts, leaders like the Archon and the Anarch are (once) mortal humans who command vast armies that include Chaos Space Marines as well. In Traitor's General, the Chaos Space Marines follow Sek's orders.

+ A Slaaneshi sorceress becomes a Daemon Princess. She is the main rival of Ciaphas Cain in The Traitor's Hand and Choose Your Enemy.

+ Lotara Sarrin is the ship-mistress of the Conqueror, the World Eater's flagship. She takes no gak from them.

There was also, I believe in "Storm of Iron" a slave/ serf who had to attend to a CSM's armor and the armor was like "Put me on! Power! Vengeance!" and they eventually did, and bonded with the armor and took on the name/ role of the CSM master.
Not to mention in all the Eisenhorn books, it's "mortals" who are doing a lot to thwart the Imperium. Just got done re-reading Xenos- and yes, there is an Emperor's Children marine, but he's somewhat subservient to the Glaw family whose influence over the sector caused a civil war just so they could get the Chaos equivalent of the Necronomicon, the Necroteuch.

 Haighus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


But they very much aim for the same, imortality, with an obviously higher attrition rate.

I think this is the key thing. Any follower of Chaos has the potential to ascend to the highest positions available to mortals- daemonhood as a daemon prince. But Chaos Marines start with advantages that make them far more likely to get there, not least that the Chaos Gods find them typically more useful pawns worthy of reward. So it isn't surprising that most of the most powerful Chaos lords are Chaos Marines, even if the vast majority of Chaos worshippers are not.

For starters, the extended lifespan of being a Marine allows for much more opportunity to accrue gifts and favour.

However, compared to most astartes warbands most cults are atleast semi competently organised nvm the out and out militaristic cults like the blood pact and moebians which would level the playing field also to a degree. Then there's the fact that the darkmech is quite literally made up off mortals.

Basically Chaos is an equal opportunity employer, the question is, do you have the grit and the backing to make it to the top and sure the marines have an edge in experience in many cases and in grit, but organisationally and technologically? Outside of the legions i reckon warbands often do worse than successfull cults and nvm the outright militaristic ones with cohesion.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the Daemon Prince thing? Again going back to Realms of Chaos, the difference between becoming a Daemon Prince and a Chaos Spawn boiled down to your strength of spirit, mind and body.

Whilst there are other description of such apotheosis, back then the various rewards, gifts and mutations gifted were the result of insane gods who cared only that you were rewarded.

IIRC, it wasn't even a reward, really. It was just what happened when a powerful being of pure chaos focused its attention on you for a brief period of time. Your physical body couldn't survive the strain completely unscathed, much like a candle (lit or not) that's placed near a flame.. But the followers mistakenly believed that the resulting mutations were the chaos gods bestowing intentional gifts.

Eumerin wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the Daemon Prince thing? Again going back to Realms of Chaos, the difference between becoming a Daemon Prince and a Chaos Spawn boiled down to your strength of spirit, mind and body.

Whilst there are other description of such apotheosis, back then the various rewards, gifts and mutations gifted were the result of insane gods who cared only that you were rewarded.

IIRC, it wasn't even a reward, really. It was just what happened when a powerful being of pure chaos focused its attention on you for a brief period of time. Your physical body couldn't survive the strain completely unscathed, much like a candle (lit or not) that's placed near a flame.. But the followers mistakenly believed that the resulting mutations were the chaos gods bestowing intentional gifts.

Both can be true.

Random mutations just by being exposed as well as deliberate gifting of mutations. Gifted mutations could also easily be carefully chosen OR simply the gods throwing a dart at a board. You'll never really know.